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Old October 30 2009, 04:22 AM   #46
Thrall
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Re: Spider-Man Post Brand New Day

That's an ugly thing to say. Rape is a hideous, life-changing violation inflicted on a real human being, and it's immature, crass, and insensitive to use it as a metaphor for someone telling a story you didn't enjoy. Grow up and get a sense of proportion.
You grow up. It's an Internet expression that's been used millions of times before me and will be used a million times after.

What character? Part of why I liked "Sins Past" is that it actually gave Gwen Stacy a personality. Let's face it, until that story, Gwen was pretty much defined solely by one thing: her death. Before that, she was just a fairly ordinary love-interest character. And even in the story of her own death, she was nothing but a passive victim, a pawn sacrificed in the battle between two men.
So then I guess you would be OK, with say, revealing that Uncle Ben molested kids? It's perfectly fine, he was a one note character with no personality who was defined completely by his death. It would show he was human and flawed and had failings just like everyone else.


"Sins Past" redefined the story of her death so that the reasons for her death were about her, not just about Peter. It made her the central character in the defining story of her life rather than just a pretty prop to throw off a bridge so a male hero would be all angsty. And it makes her a real, nuanced human being with understandable, forgiveable human failings, rather than a shallow, idealized fanboy fantasy
Understandable?! Forgiveable?! She fucked his best friends dad!! She didn't get a parking ticket here! She fucked his best friends dad! It's like something out of a bad Jerry Fucking Springer episode.

See, this is why I hate Ron Mooreizaiton of pop culture. Because in certain minds scumbaggish, degenerate behavior = flawed and human. Most humans - at least the ones I know. It might be different in your neck of the woods - do not make fucking their best friends dad a habit.


What a hideous thing to say! Just because she was human and imperfect, her death wasn't worth grieving? What a truly horrifying sentiment.
I say hideous things all the time. Like in this thread, where I joked about Peter melting MJ's face with his radioactive jizzum.

She was a cheating bitch who fucked his best friends dad. She obviously didn't love him the way he loved her. Other wise she wouldn't have done it. So again, pinning over some tramp who didn't love him was huge waste of his time.

Because the definition of "whore" is "a woman who offers sexual services in exchange for money." That's not Gwen, obviously. She was a young woman who made a mistake because an older, powerful man took advantage of her, and who deeply regretted it afterward. People make mistakes.
"Whore" is just a generic term. Degenerate scumfuck would be more apt.

Interesting fictional characters make mistakes.
It wasn't a mistake. It was a line that should never have been crossed. And was completely inappropriate for a comic that gets read by kids.

Look at Peter Parker. His whole life is defined by one huge mistake -- letting a burglar escape justice when he could've easily captured him. He made that one mistake, he paid a high price for it, and he spent the rest of his life trying to make amends for it. Gwen Stacy did essentially the same thing.
It's different, and you damn well know it. You're being completely intellectually dishonest here. Pete did what any human being would have done in that situation, powers or not. Very few people are going to put their ass on the line and try and be a hero and stop the guy. Your average guy is going to get the hell out of the way.

Not everyone fucks their friends dad because they feel sorry for them. And if you think they do, you're completely delusional.
So unless you also think Peter Parker is an unforgivably awful human being, then you're employing a grossly sexist double standard.
Peter was a dumb kid who did what anyone would have done. Gwen was a cheating bitch, who's big revelation cheapened her death and everyone's opinion of her.

Well everyone except you and Quesada.
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Last edited by Thrall; October 30 2009 at 06:44 AM.
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Old October 30 2009, 04:57 AM   #47
coolghoul
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Re: Spider-Man Post Brand New Day

Christopher wrote: View Post
O'Dib wrote: View Post
Also, it doesn't sound likely he would do any of those extra things you suggest without jacking up the price of the transaction.
Well, yes, that much is right there on the page. MJ asked Mephisto to restore Peter's life to the way it was and "give him a chance for happiness," and in exchange for that, she would "sweeten the deal" by offering him something. That's not in dispute. The question is simply what it was that she offered him, and I have never before heard anyone suggest that it would be anything as crass and simple as her having sex with the Devil. I mean, this is the Devil! If he wants carnal pleasures, he'd have no trouble getting hold of women who'd do far kinkier things than MJ has ever contemplated. I think he'd consider that far too trivial a reward to be worth his while. I mean, he's the Prince of Darkness, not a frat boy. The kind of price he'd demand would be something that caused someone pain on a spiritual level. That's what gets him off -- not bedding a supermodel.
But the Devil has a long (biblical) history of trying to corrupt innocents. So if he can get THE redheaded jackpot in the MU to compromise her principles and suggest a roll in the hay for some favor, it wouldn't be out of the ordinary behavior for the Prince of Darkness.





Thrall wrote: View Post
Understandable?! Forgiveable?! She fucked his best friends dad!! She didn't get a parking ticket here! She fucked his best friends dad! It's like something out of a bad Jerry Fucking Springer episode.

See, this is why I hate Ron Mooreizaiton of pop culture. Because in certain minds scumbaggish, degenerate behavior = flawed and human. Most humans - at least the ones I know. It might be different in your neck of the woods - do not make fucking their best friends dad a habit.
So, Christopher which area constitutes "your neck of the woods"? Inquiring minds want to know.

On a serious note - Thrall, what is meant by Ron Mooreization? And why? He didn't start the dark/grim/gritty writing. So why call it Ron Mooreization?

I say hideous things all the time. Like in this thread, where I joked about Peter melting MJ's face with his radioactive jizzum.

She was a cheating bitch who fucked his best friends dad. She obviously didn't love him the way he loved her. Other wise she wouldn't have done it. So again, pinning over some tramp who didn't love him was huge waste of his time.

"Whore" is just a generic term. Degenerate scumfuck would be more apt.
Talk about proving your point re saying hideous things!

Maybe I don't remember my Spidey history accurately, but Spidey's early years had him getting romantic feelings about a number of different folks - Betty Brant, Liz Allen, Gwen Stacy and MJackpot - I am no longer certain but I think the Black Cat too gets involved for a little bit (but maybe I'm getting confused with the Ultimate universe). The whole Betty Brant - Ned Leeds - Liz Allen thing was particularly confusing with him getting involved with one and then not knowing where he stands and then going out with his college sweetheart and so on. My point - I don't think there was a clear point in the comics where he had Gwen Stacy - she was quite well mixed up with MJ, whose (initially) flighty behavior both confused and intrigued Peter Parker. Also this was past the 60s. The sexual revolution had already taken place - so if on some day Gwen Stacy had a moment of weakness (and if I remember correctly Sins Past never really "shows" the event - it mentions it happening in the letter that Peter receives) and decided to invite Harry's Dad upstairs for coffee and had a little "experimentation" night with him, it's not beyond the realm of believability. And then gets blackmailed for a little bit cos she doesn't want everybody to know about being pregnant and stuff.

What is stretching it (imo) is assuming that that happens, that one moment leads to a baby (no, twins!!) and that she successfully hides it and nobody knows until thirty plus years later!!! That *is* hard to believe.
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Old October 30 2009, 05:06 AM   #48
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Re: Spider-Man Post Brand New Day

That Worst Superhero Husband thing was great and you can't get much worse than Hawkeye taking the side of his wife's rapist.

I say it's time to move on from Gwen Stacey. She died years ago. I remember some fans complaining that they gave Mary Jane Gwen's storyline in the movies but should that have come as any surprise? Gwen Stacy had died over thirty years ago and all the younger fans would remember is Mary Jane.

As for the Gwen/Goblin retcon, consider that in the long list of horrible Marvel retcons. Like X-Men Deadly Genesis...

Now we have Pathetic Peter of the lousy "Parker luck" instead of the "With great power comes great responsibility" Peter. Peter used to be inspiring. Now he is just pathetic.
Seriously, Peter Parker being a loser after 45 years is not cool.
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Old October 30 2009, 06:21 AM   #49
Thrall
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Re: Spider-Man Post Brand New Day

On a serious note - Thrall, what is meant by Ron Mooreization? And why? He didn't start the dark/grim/gritty writing. So why call it Ron Mooreization?
He has themes in his writing that I'm not a fan of. Basically making the characters as fucked up as he can to push some heavy handed "message of forgiveness" at the end. In real life, people don't forgive personal slights or short comings so easily. So in his push for more realism, it becomes less realistic to me.

Talk about proving your point re saying hideous things!
Hey, I'm an asshole. I admit it.

Maybe I don't remember my Spidey history accurately, but Spidey's early years had him getting romantic feelings about a number of different folks - Betty Brant, Liz Allen, Gwen Stacy and MJackpot - I am no longer certain but I think the Black Cat too gets involved for a little bit (but maybe I'm getting confused with the Ultimate universe). The whole Betty Brant - Ned Leeds - Liz Allen thing was particularly confusing with him getting involved with one and then not knowing where he stands and then going out with his college sweetheart and so on. My point - I don't think there was a clear point in the comics where he had Gwen Stacy - she was quite well mixed up with MJ, whose (initially) flighty behavior both confused and intrigued Peter Parker. Also this was past the 60s. The sexual revolution had already taken place - so if on some day Gwen Stacy had a moment of weakness (and if I remember correctly Sins Past never really "shows" the event - it mentions it happening in the letter that Peter receives) and decided to invite Harry's Dad upstairs for coffee and had a little "experimentation" night with him, it's not beyond the realm of believability. And then gets blackmailed for a little bit cos she doesn't want everybody to know about being pregnant and stuff.

What is stretching it (imo) is assuming that that happens, that one moment leads to a baby (no, twins!!) and that she successfully hides it and nobody knows until thirty plus years later!!! That *is* hard to believe.
Sexual Revolution? Experimentation? You know those Lee-penned books were written for kids right? This is the problem with that industry right here. A bunch of adults decided to graft all of their fetishes and complex crap onto a medium that was meant for kids. Which is why only geeky adults(like me!) bother with it anymore. Which is why it's a niche market.
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Old October 30 2009, 07:12 AM   #50
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Re: Spider-Man Post Brand New Day

Thrall...don't forget that Gwen and Peter were on a break! (Yes that was a Friends reference!) This storyline along with One More Day and maybe the Clone Saga seems to be the most controversial in Spider-Man history.
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Old October 30 2009, 07:40 AM   #51
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Re: Spider-Man Post Brand New Day

Admiral_Young wrote: View Post
Thrall...don't forget that Gwen and Peter were on a break! (Yes that was a Friends reference!) This storyline along with One More Day and maybe the Clone Saga seems to be the most controversial in Spider-Man history.
At least in the clone saga Ben Reilly was a good character. He should never have been named as the "real" Peter. But he was still a good character. And I would have easily accepted him as a replacement Spider-Man, even taking over the Peter Parker identity and Peter taking Ben's and allowing him and MJ to retire and have their baby girl.

If only they did not try to say Ben was the real deal fans would have likely been able to accept the change. And we could have even had periodic guest spots with MJ and Ben(Peter) if they wanted, but had Peter(Ben) as a single Spidey.
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Old October 30 2009, 04:04 PM   #52
coolghoul
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Re: Spider-Man Post Brand New Day

I know my weighty opinions/recommendations will be worth nothing after this admission but I was reading comics occasionally during the Clone Saga (being in school etc) and was totally taken in by the whole thing. I haven't read the thing end-to-end but the whole wheels-within-wheels-within-even-more-wheels-and-no-end-in-sight thing actually appealed greatly to me.

I haven't actually read One More Day. I have read Sins Past & Sins Remembered (yes, the storyline is referred to in another trade - it appeared in a different monthly comic book than TAS, I think). I think my friendly neighborhood librarians do not want to admit that OMD happened. And there are no TAS trades since that storyline either. Hmm - jokes apart - I wonder whether they decided to drop those trades because of that storyline. It's pretty bad if libraries refuse to partake of Spider-man because of OMD....
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Old October 30 2009, 04:32 PM   #53
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Re: Spider-Man Post Brand New Day

Thrall wrote: View Post
So then I guess you would be OK, with say, revealing that Uncle Ben molested kids? It's perfectly fine, he was a one note character with no personality who was defined completely by his death. It would show he was human and flawed and had failings just like everyone else.
I should point out that the way "Skip" was drawn he looked an awful lot like Uncle Ben.
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Old October 30 2009, 11:12 PM   #54
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Re: Spider-Man Post Brand New Day

It WAS going to be Ben, but the guys in charge thankfully changed that.
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Old October 31 2009, 03:29 AM   #55
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Re: Spider-Man Post Brand New Day

coolghoul wrote: View Post
I know my weighty opinions/recommendations will be worth nothing after this admission but I was reading comics occasionally during the Clone Saga (being in school etc) and was totally taken in by the whole thing. I haven't read the thing end-to-end but the whole wheels-within-wheels-within-even-more-wheels-and-no-end-in-sight thing actually appealed greatly to me.
Actually, I quite enjoyed the entire story myself. And I did read it from beginning to end. I had no problem with Ben being the original as so many other fans did. At the point where the supposed switch took place, either one was as real as the other. So all the stories I read after that were still valid and still in continuity. We were reading Spider-Man and he was the only one during all that time.

And yeah, I did read the book before that. I started with #100, the beginning of the story where Peter got four extra arms.

But I really think that if they had not said Ben was the real one, no one would have had a problem with Peter handing off his identity to Ben when he and MJ went off to Seattle to live a normal life and raise their baby. Allow Ben to take over the Parker ID as well, so that even people who knew his identity could be fooled into not knowing there was a switch. People like Daredevil, Wolverine, Black Cat and even Norman and Harry Osborn if they were brought back a bit different than they have been. Plus, it would let Ben return to the Daily Bugle.

The new Peter could just tell people that MJ left him for his cousin Ben. Something that would have made them give the real Peter a bit of space to get over. Allowing the new Peter to get up to speed on all that he had missed when he was away. And viola! You would have had a single Peter as Spider-Man working at the Daily Bugle, one that would have never been married.

The old fans would know that Peter and MJ were just fine living off-panel, no deals with demons, so they would have handled it without a real uproar. And editors could just start ignoring there was a switch after a while, once Peter(Ben) settled in. And after that, for all intents and purposes, he's Peter. Period.
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Old October 31 2009, 11:44 AM   #56
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Re: Spider-Man Post Brand New Day

I've actually decided to drop Amazing Spider-man after 20 or so years. Not so much because of OMD/BND, but because I don't need a 3x monthly Spidey fix. I've actually found myself drifting over to Marvel Adventures Spider-man of late, which is not so much a kid-friendly Spidey as a more "old school" Spidey with yet another new continuity...

I'm not a big stickler for the 616 Spidey-continuity, but I do think it's become quite a mess thanks to OMD/BND and it's only going to keep coming up as Amazing continues to bring up more of Peter's pre-OMD past, IMO...
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Old November 12 2009, 12:19 AM   #57
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Re: Spider-Man Post Brand New Day

Hoping to get this back on track here...

I've recently had the opportunity to read the first three Brand New Day trade paperbacks, and though I hate the way they got here, I'm rather enjoying what they're doing. The BND issues recapture the fun of the Stan Lee era, complete with editorial asides and in-jokes and an often-tenuous fourth wall. The storytelling is interesting, with some big things happening that play with long-standing elements of the mythos in unexpected ways -- Jameson losing the Bugle, Spidey's paraphernalia being stolen and used by criminals, Peter becoming a paparazzo, etc. The new villains aren't bad, and it's nice to see the return of some golden oldies like the Enforcers. And it has all the old Lee touches of Spidey having to deal with real-world concerns like damage to his costume, struggling to make ends meet, and so on. The Bar With No Name for the supervillains, with them taking bets on the outcomes of superfights, is a cute idea. And there are some very nice bits of writing here and there; I loved the one with the "mystical blizzard" where Spidey got help from a homeless guy, then tried to get him out of danger by sending him for "reinforcements" -- only for him to show up later with a small army of homeless people who came to Spidey's rescue.

I still think they've lost a lot by erasing the marriage and Peter's teaching job and eliminating Aunt May's knowledge of Peter's dual life. And I still think the way they chose to bring about the reboot was awful. But these are good, entertaining stories.
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Old November 12 2009, 12:40 AM   #58
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Re: Spider-Man Post Brand New Day

^^ If you liked the first three, you'll love "New Ways to Die" and "Election Day". They were both excellent stories with big events but also very funny with good character moments. And John Romita Jr art!
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Old November 12 2009, 06:01 AM   #59
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Re: Spider-Man Post Brand New Day

I love BND personally. It flows well and captures who Peter is. I think there had been a lot of just muddling stuff through the years and while the road to streamline it was very controversial, the end result is pretty good.

I don't even want to get into Morlun or the rebirth of Peter...
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Old November 12 2009, 09:18 AM   #60
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Re: Spider-Man Post Brand New Day

I recently picked up the hardcover of American Son. It was the first ASM purchase that I had made since before OMD, and I bought it more for the Dark Reign aspect than anything else.

And... I have to say that it's one of, if not the best, Spider-Man story I've read in a long time. Peter's bond with Harry was something that had been missing for a while, and Harry's return is the one thing that I can look the other way about concerning the new timeline with just some mild annoyance.

Of course, I never liked JMS Spider-Man even a little bit, so that might color my perceptions a little. Pre-OMD, I bought the Marvel Knights book, and then the Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man book. Just one book a month. Like I said upthread, the decision to bump ASM to three times a month was as big a factor in my decision to drop the book as anything else. Have mercy on me Marvel, these thing's ain't as cheap as they used to be!
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