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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Entertainment & Interests > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Battlestar Galactica & Caprica

Battlestar Galactica & Caprica This forum was created by man. It rebelled. It evolved. And it has a plan.

View Poll Results: Grade the movie...
Excellent 22 14.38%
Above Average 55 35.95%
Average 48 31.37%
Below Average 21 13.73%
Poor 7 4.58%
Voters: 153. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
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Old October 22 2009, 04:35 AM   #91
T J
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Re: The Plan - Grading & Discussion

Did anyone else catch the the thing the hybrid said right before the attack? "Twelve battles, three stars."

What was that about?! Obviously twelve battles means destroying each colonial world but three stars? Are they trying to say it's a trinary star system? If so, I've never heard that before.
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Old October 22 2009, 05:02 AM   #92
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Re: The Plan - Grading & Discussion

Ghoul Malakai wrote: View Post
vampgrrl wrote: View Post
I think Cavil is like a child...he doesn't understand humanity at all. He's a child with a temper that happens to have nuclear weapons.

Or worse, like an immature child who is highly intelligent...but has the emotional maturity of a 5 year old. And as far as I know he was never mistreated by humans assuming the Cavil mind was never taken from a non human body.
Cavil's utter failure to understand human emotions and why other people weren't acting the way he wanted them to seemed autistic, to me. He's very intelligent but with a narrow emotional scope.
I thought it was representative of how immature the Cylons were...words like love seemed to shock them, they were like humans who had no understanding of emotion at all.
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Old October 22 2009, 05:13 AM   #93
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Re: The Plan - Grading & Discussion

DevilEyes wrote: View Post
kipron wrote: View Post
The production itself was quite impressive especially for a TV movie. Nice camera work and editing, nice direction and wife on the part of Olmos. Even the smallest guest roles were generally well acted. Lots of cool little references back to S1/2.

But still I'm gonna say Average, and here's why:

Cavil's Plan, which is supposed to underpin the whole series, is ridiculously convoluted and self-defeating. He's supposedly trying to destroy the fleet (not very effectively), and at the same time he wants to watch in glee as the FF suffer a human life until they beg for his forgiveness. The opposition of these two goals doesn't make sense, even for someone driven by petulant emotions.

Moreover, I'm not convinced that someone who hates himself and humanity so much, would be so willing to play the role of a petulant human, AND willingly engage in the human trait of deceit. If he hates being what he is, why does he stick around in a place where he's constantly reminded of it? Seems like a better (and more believable) path for Cavil would've been complete ambivalence towards humanity, to go off into the stars and evolve into something else..

Also, there are simply more elegant plans out there. The idea that Cavil was looking for Earth all along, that the apocalypse was just a rouse to get humanity to fulfill the prophecy and find Earth..now THAT is a Plan. And until they said otherwise, it still could've been.

There were other little niggles too. They go to the trouble of working in the elephants from Downloaded, which is a really neat little link. But at the same time they didn't work that in to Gaeta's handshake in KLG?! We still don't know what it was that he handed to Boomer just before she shot Adama..I thought they were going to reveal that he gave her an elephant or something.

imho, it just goes to show that sometimes things are better left a mystery. in this case because the explanations they came up with, are sometimes a bit too mundane and don't really explain EVERYTHING anyway. and so the few things still don't quite track, stand out a bit more..

Finally, Shelley Godfrey will always be a manifestation of HeadSix. At least to me.

All that said, we *did* find out who RealSix met on Caprica. That's something.
In other words, you vote that it's average because the explanations we got were not those you wanted?
No, I say it's average because it feels like the writers are being unnecessarily apologetic to their audience.

It's like, "look! there really was a Plan!" Even though there wasn't really.

I think I much prefer the approach of Daybreak, which was to leave things unapologetically mysterious.
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Old October 22 2009, 06:42 AM   #94
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Re: The Plan - Grading & Discussion

T J wrote: View Post
Did anyone else catch the the thing the hybrid said right before the attack? "Twelve battles, three stars."

What was that about?! Obviously twelve battles means destroying each colonial world but three stars? Are they trying to say it's a trinary star system? If so, I've never heard that before.
All it means is that the twelve colonies circle three stars. Nothing is implied about where those stars are. Four habitable worlds in a single star system is already pushing things, so I'd guess they're just nearby (in easy FTL range).
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Old October 22 2009, 07:06 AM   #95
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Re: The Plan - Grading & Discussion

Well its never established the range of Colonial FTL drives or how far the Red Line is from the colonies.

THe number of colonies around 1 star is absurd but I figured it was more to fit within the original storyline or Glen Larson.

I'd buy 2-3 "colonies" better but its not too much of a big deal.
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Old October 22 2009, 01:31 PM   #96
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Re: The Plan - Grading & Discussion

kipron wrote: View Post
DevilEyes wrote: View Post
In other words, you vote that it's average because the explanations we got were not those you wanted?
No, I say it's average because it feels like the writers are being unnecessarily apologetic to their audience.

It's like, "look! there really was a Plan!" Even though there wasn't really.
I disagree, because 1) they should apologize to the audience and 2) they did not, as far as I can see.

Seriously... they're not trying to make out that there was any grand "Plan". I don't know where you're getting that idea - from the title? The movie itself shows that there was indeed, a plan...(well, duh... there always is one...) a very simple and not very good one, to destroy all the humans, and when it - of course - did not work (did they really think they'd succeed in wiping out 100% of a population at one stroke?!) Cavil just started improvising and coming up with desperate little "plans". In other words, the movie itself mocks the idea that there ever was some kind of grand "PLAN" and that the Cylons were oh so knowing and powerful and that they had everything mapped out, as people used to assume during season 1 and most of season 2.

Or, if you like theobabble (which the movie was refreshingly free of, and I find it a great relief), you might take the words from Cavil's poster literally despite himself, and postulate that the only big "plan" there was was "God's plan".
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Old October 22 2009, 07:20 PM   #97
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Re: The Plan - Grading & Discussion

DevilEyes wrote: View Post
In other words, the movie itself mocks the idea that there ever was some kind of grand "PLAN" and that the Cylons were oh so knowing and powerful and that they had everything mapped out, as people used to assume during season 1 and most of season 2.
This was when people thought the HeadPeople were on the same side of the Cylons, not a third party.
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Old October 22 2009, 10:57 PM   #98
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Re: The Plan - Grading & Discussion

DevilEyes wrote: View Post
Seriously... they're not trying to make out that there was any grand "Plan". I don't know where you're getting that idea - from the title? The movie itself shows that there was indeed, a plan...(well, duh... there always is one...) a very simple and not very good one, to destroy all the humans, and when it - of course - did not work (did they really think they'd succeed in wiping out 100% of a population at one stroke?!) Cavil just started improvising and coming up with desperate little "plans". In other words, the movie itself mocks the idea that there ever was some kind of grand "PLAN" and that the Cylons were oh so knowing and powerful and that they had everything mapped out, as people used to assume during season 1 and most of season 2.

Or, if you like theobabble (which the movie was refreshingly free of, and I find it a great relief), you might take the words from Cavil's poster literally despite himself, and postulate that the only big "plan" there was was "God's plan".
If there really was no "grand plan" ... then why the hell devote nearly two hours to the ad-hoc, ridiculously incompetent and futile plan Cavil came up with ... and call the whole ball of wax The Plan? Unless the retcon was worth exploring, why do so at all? Why not just leave the mystery intact? Afterall, the mystery of Vader's past turned out to be far more tantalyzing than the reality.

Same here.

If you're going to go through the trouble of explaining "The Plan" and call the movie The Plan ... then "The Plan" should be at least something more compelling then: KILL ALL HUMANS, INCLUDING INNOCENT HOMELESS BOYS ... <EVIL GLARE> GRRR!!!

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Old October 22 2009, 11:00 PM   #99
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Re: The Plan - Grading & Discussion

I'm gonna have to go with average. There were some moments of brilliance, but it was mostly "meh".
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Old October 22 2009, 11:23 PM   #100
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Re: The Plan - Grading & Discussion

Linus wrote: View Post
If you're going to go through the trouble of explaining "The Plan" and call the movie The Plan ... then "The Plan" should be at least something more compelling then: KILL ALL HUMANS, INCLUDING INNOCENT HOMELESS BOYS ... <EVIL GLARE> GRRR!!!
You do realize that there's no evidence that the boy actually existed, right? That he could just have easily been a head manifestation. Note the total lack of blood when Cavil murdered him. Or the fact that no one else was shown to have seen or noticed him. Considering that killing the boy was the last step along Cavil's road to damnation -- the moment he let him stay gave rise to the question of redemption for him -- it's very possible that he could have been one of the angelic beings testing him.

What we really saw was that the Cylons were doomed to failure from the very beginning. That Cavil was manipulating everyone, Cylon and Human alike. That he wasn't even above destroying his own model to see his madness through despite he, himself, discovering just how much of a failure his plan was through his own model.

The entire point of the movie was to show that Cavil was a madman. Even his own model saw the light, but he quelled that with an iron fist.

Most of all it showed us that the real plan was God's plan. That no matter what Cavil tried to do in his insanity, the human condition survived. That love was the answer for everything. Love allowed the Cylons and Humans to mate. Love turned Cylons away from Cavil's plan. Love allowed the survivors to make it to Earth despite all the pitfalls that came their way.

Battlestar Galactica was a love story. And The Plan (note that the title wasn't The Cylon's Plan or Cavil's Plan) showed us just how powerful it was.

Regardless of all of that, the movie left us with just as many questions as it answered. The mystery is still there in a number of places. How did Starbuck survive her death and return with a sparkling new Viper that triggered the Final Five? Who was her father? What was going on with Three? etc.
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Old October 22 2009, 11:49 PM   #101
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Re: The Plan - Grading & Discussion

Checkmate wrote: View Post
You do realize that there's no evidence that the boy actually existed, right? That he could just have easily been a head manifestation. Note the total lack of blood when Cavil murdered him. Or the fact that no one else was shown to have seen or noticed him. Considering that killing the boy was the last step along Cavil's road to damnation -- the moment he let him stay gave rise to the question of redemption for him -- it's very possible that he could have been one of the angelic beings testing him.
If you want to quibble, there *was* blood on the knife.

Still, I think the true nature of the boy is irrelevant. Real or manifestation, the boy was real to Cavil -- and that's all that matters, symbolically at least. And yes, I get that the boy represents the last hope for redemption, for humanity within that particular version of Cavil. Still, it's a kitschy development, done more for, in my opinion at least, shock value than anything else (like the gratuitous nudity). Like I said, I get the symbolism, but it seemed disingenuous to me.

Checkmate wrote: View Post
What we really saw was that the Cylons were doomed to failure from the very beginning. That Cavil was manipulating everyone, Cylon and Human alike. That he wasn't even above destroying his own model to see his madness through despite he, himself, discovering just how much of a failure his plan was through his own model.

The entire point of the movie was to show that Cavil was a madman. Even his own model saw the light, but he quelled that with an iron fist.

Most of all it showed us that the real plan was God's plan. That no matter what Cavil tried to do in his insanity, the human condition survived. That love was the answer for everything. Love allowed the Cylons and Humans to mate. Love turned Cylons away from Cavil's plan. Love allowed the survivors to make it to Earth despite all the pitfalls that came their way.

Battlestar Galactica was a love story. And The Plan (note that the title wasn't The Cylon's Plan or Cavil's Plan) showed us just how powerful it was.

Regardless of all of that, the movie left us with just as many questions as it answered. The mystery is still there in a number of places. How did Starbuck survive her death and return with a sparkling new Viper that triggered the Final Five? Who was her father? What was going on with Three? etc.
I'd have had more respect for the film had it taken on a Of Mice And Men or "To A Mouse" tack, detailing how the "The best laid schemes o' mice an' men / Gang aft agley." But this wasn't even the "best laid schemes." It was, simply, the desperate ad-hoc plots of a cookie-cutter evil-guy who, despite the natural charisma of Dean Stockwell, was nowhere near as entertaining or compelling as John Colicos's Baltar who was, at the very least, unabashedly a cookie-cutter madman villain.
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Old October 23 2009, 02:16 AM   #102
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Re: The Plan - Grading & Discussion

Cavil was far more interesting than TOS Baltar who was more of a mustache twirling villain taken from Scooby Doo (I would have gotten away with it, if it weren't for you meddling kids...).

Cavil was an emotionally stunted, immature "child" with a lot of power and he didn't fully understand humans or his own emotions (perhaps self hatred at even having such emotion). After all who was Hitler? He wasn't a cartoon but he was a legitmately fucked up individual who was at a certain place in time, and took full advantage of the situation to unleash his own inner crap upon the world.
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Old October 23 2009, 04:25 AM   #103
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Re: The Plan - Grading & Discussion

Some pics,

The new California Highway Patol?



Caprica City



Libron:





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Old October 23 2009, 04:40 AM   #104
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Re: The Plan - Grading & Discussion

I liked it, some surprising parts.
One thing I didn't get was if there was a temporary peace treaty why did the two Cavil's get blown out the air lock?

Also you can see the disagreements between Cavil and the all the other models forming much earlier.

The Cavils sure don't care about his Cylon brothers & sisters he wants them all to kill themselves for the cause but he won't himself.
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Old October 23 2009, 05:11 AM   #105
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Re: The Plan - Grading & Discussion

As I recall, the Colonials never signed up to that treaty. It was just the Cylons deciding to try something different.
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