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Old October 15 2009, 10:38 PM   #16
DGCatAniSiri
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Re: Dukat's love for Ziyal--genuine or selfish?

You know, this has made me wonder... Has any post-finale DS9 story touched on what happened to Dukat's family after his breakdown or what happened to Cardassia? I can't recall any, but it's been a while since I reread them. I'd be interested to know how they view Dukat, the Federation, the Dominion, Ziyal, etc.
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Old October 15 2009, 10:48 PM   #17
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Re: Dukat's love for Ziyal--genuine or selfish?

Hey guys new to BBS, I used to be in the trek website discussion boards but I can no longer sign in, it is having serious issues right now so I thought I'd try it in here.

Love the topic by the way. I thought at the beginning Dukat sort of used Ziyal as a crutch or a token to make himself appear as a nice person, but in the end when he had realized what he had lost it really hurt and as we all know drove him over the edge to insanity.
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Old October 15 2009, 10:53 PM   #18
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Re: Dukat's love for Ziyal--genuine or selfish?

^ The majority of Cardassians, apart from those with unorthodox views, would not see him as nice for not killing Ziyal and for accepting her.

I really don't believe he would have risked to lose his career, social standing and his Cardassian family only to appear as a nice person to Kira and a few people from Deep Space Nine.
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Old October 15 2009, 10:57 PM   #19
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Re: Dukat's love for Ziyal--genuine or selfish?

^ True, it was "acceptable" to kill kids sired out of wedlock etc. Or sometimes viewed as a gift....

DGCatAniSiri wrote: View Post
You know, this has made me wonder... Has any post-finale DS9 story touched on what happened to Dukat's family after his breakdown or what happened to Cardassia? I can't recall any, but it's been a while since I reread them. I'd be interested to know how they view Dukat, the Federation, the Dominion, Ziyal, etc.

Ziyal has come up, but I think the Dukat stuff is Pre DS9... or set during the series.
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Old October 15 2009, 11:23 PM   #20
redshirtguy1001
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Re: Dukat's love for Ziyal--genuine or selfish?

Yeah but she must have meant something to him because when he had a chance he decided not to kill her. I always kind of thought he was trying to get with Nerys and sort of used his child as a means to do this. How whacked would that have been. He did her mother and then could have done her too kind of weird.
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Old October 15 2009, 11:25 PM   #21
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Re: Dukat's love for Ziyal--genuine or selfish?

Yeah, but goodness, Redshirtguy, using your child to get to a woman...that doesn't sound like love. Not even for Dukat.

But as I said above, I expect there was some real love in it, though no doubt it was twisted and odd, since this is Dukat we're talking about.
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Old October 15 2009, 11:31 PM   #22
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Re: Dukat's love for Ziyal--genuine or selfish?

redshirtguy1001 wrote: View Post
Yeah but she must have meant something to him because when he had a chance he decided not to kill her. I always kind of thought he was trying to get with Nerys and sort of used his child as a means to do this. How whacked would that have been. He did her mother and then could have done her too kind of weird.
DiaboliKate wrote: View Post
Yeah, but goodness, Redshirtguy, using your child to get to a woman...that doesn't sound like love. Not even for Dukat.
As I said, I don't find it believable in the least that he would risk losing his career, social standing, his family back on Cardassia (7 children!), getting disowned by his own mother... just to possibly get a woman into bed. Does this really seem plausible to you?
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Old October 16 2009, 01:50 PM   #23
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Re: Dukat's love for Ziyal--genuine or selfish?

No - I didn't intend to indicate that it did. I was merely addressing Redshirt's point - pointing out that even if we could accept that he had accepted Ziyal for this reason, that wouldn't constitute "love." I'm not sure exactly what it would constitute, but love wouldn't describe it. But no, I don't really think this is the reason he spared her.

As I've said a couple of times now, I believe Dukat felt some real love for (and responsibility for) Ziyal. But...

....But I do think that after he made that great sacrifice for love, he used her and her love for him a LOT, and that doesn't fit into my definition of love. Like just about anything else having to do with Dukat, it's all very twisted and complicated. That's why we talk about him so much.
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Old October 16 2009, 10:04 PM   #24
Kira Nerys
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Re: Dukat's love for Ziyal--genuine or selfish?

I thought Dukat was selfish .He only expressed his love or caring for Ziyal if their was a political angle to it or a way up the job ladder .The fact that he tried to kill her in the beginng was proof of that .
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Old October 16 2009, 10:09 PM   #25
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Re: Dukat's love for Ziyal--genuine or selfish?

Kira Nerys wrote: View Post
I thought Dukat was selfish .He only expressed his love or caring for Ziyal if their was a political angle to it or a way up the job ladder .The fact that he tried to kill her in the beginng was proof of that .
How did having Ziyal ever help his career or political agenda? Taking her to Cardassia only did the opposite.
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Old October 19 2009, 09:13 PM   #26
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Re: Dukat's love for Ziyal--genuine or selfish?

Nerys Dukat wrote: View Post
This is something I've really been wondering about lately, based on some clips I went back and watched of Dukat speaking about Ziyal and interacting with her. As you guys may already know, I write an alternate version of Dukat where he is basically the "good twin," and I was rather startled to notice that even in the brief interactions between the two that I'd written, that what I had thought was the one true constant, between the two versions of Dukat...felt different! At least, it did to me.

So here's what I started wondering about. Do you guys feel that Dukat loved Ziyal for her own sake? Or was it that he loved her as he might a pet, because she unconditionally loved and praised him? In other words, was his love pure, or was it simply because of what SHE did for HIM?
I think it was shown quite clearly at the moment Dukat lost his sanity that he loved her as a daughter. She'd spurned him, and yet he would have accepted her again had she not been murdered.

I think that Dukat bought into some Cardassian conservative values (like duty, honor, family loyalty) on their surface, but clearly went against these values from time to time. His rejection of his previous wife and family in favor of being with Ziyal, his lovechild, even though his lover had been Bajoran and his lovechild of mixed race, is an example. There are many instances of Dukat loving very deeply and honestly on the show --- and it made him into quite a complex character/villain, until he went nuts and, as did, shortly after, the writers of the show (who possessed him, making him "twirl his moustache" with vigor, so to speak).
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Old October 19 2009, 09:22 PM   #27
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Re: Dukat's love for Ziyal--genuine or selfish?

Marie1 wrote: View Post
I think he loved her when he had no one else, and there are strong ties to family with Cardassians (even if his other family left him for not killing her- that one of several times).

But at times he clearly only was using her to get to people like Kira, and you can't turn real love off and on like that.
I disagree that he was using Ziyal to get Kira. I think that he and Kira really did have a common bond over Ziyal, one that had begun from the moment Ziyal was found and Kira convinced Dukat (who was close to making an honor killing) not to murder her.

Then Kira took Ziyal off his ship to give her a more secure, stable home, and vowed to protect the girl. This is when Kira and Dukat were "getting along" in their own way.

The bond they shared over Ziyal was real, and Dukat didn't want to use Ziyal to exploit Kira, he wanted to increase the bond between himself and Kira, which had started over Ziyal.
They were happy and got along as strange parents to Ziyal, and though Dukat was indeed a villain character, he was very familial (as are many Cardassians). I can see him deciding that Kira, Ziyal, and himself was the family unit he desired, and attempting to strengthen that.

But just to get Kira in bed? While his methods to attract Kira were uncouth and holdovers from the Occupation, I doubt he was just trying to get her in bed. Besides, he knew Kira wouldn't fall for something like that, and would be too smart to try to trick her. I think he honestly wanted something more, and was too much of a fool to know how to go about getting it.
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Old October 20 2009, 04:41 AM   #28
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Re: Dukat's love for Ziyal--genuine or selfish?

If he loved her, he didn't seem terribly interested in what made her happy. I think he needed her love and forgiveness to obtain a feeling of absolution for his actions during the occupation.
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Old October 20 2009, 02:18 PM   #29
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Re: Dukat's love for Ziyal--genuine or selfish?

Kelso wrote: View Post
If he loved her, he didn't seem terribly interested in what made her happy. I think he needed her love and forgiveness to obtain a feeling of absolution for his actions during the occupation.
That's a really good point, Kelso. It was love, I think, but love with a very strong element of self-interest and self-aggrandizement in it. It was a very...Dukatian kind of love.

He may not have even really loved her - that is, loved her in a more normal, a less twisted, Dukatian way - or realized how much she meant to him, until she was dead. Of course, in a way, it's easier to love somebody then because it's easier to idealize a person who no longer does anything to anger you or annoy you. I'm not being sarcastic or belittling - it really does happen that way sometimes in real life.

Last edited by JustKate; October 20 2009 at 07:58 PM.
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Old October 20 2009, 06:18 PM   #30
Nerys Ghemor
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Re: Dukat's love for Ziyal--genuine or selfish?

I think you're right--perhaps it was an ideal of Ziyal that he loved, not the real person.

But I'm wondering...does anyone else think that perhaps he saw in her what he could have been but never had the courage to become?
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