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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old October 6 2009, 10:59 PM   #16
Shazam!
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Re: How would Sarek explain Spock 'Prime' to the other Vulcan survivor

You have to wonder if Spock knows he is in an alternate timeline. If he does, it kinda makes sense (ish) that he'd just leave things be as his universe is going about it's business just fine.
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Old October 6 2009, 11:01 PM   #17
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Re: How would Sarek explain Spock 'Prime' to the other Vulcan survivor

It's still a moral problem, and I'd imagine the character of Spock would have a big problem with that. Even if it is an alternate, parallel universe, who gives outsiders the right to interfere with it an kill 6 billions? Prime Directive, I say. Spock should actual try everything to undo the damage he caused.
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Old October 6 2009, 11:01 PM   #18
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Re: How would Sarek explain Spock 'Prime' to the other Vulcan survivor

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Franklin wrote: View Post
Well, it's not a fuck-up in the timeline. It's a NEW timeline.
Well that's debatable.

The Kirk character in the movie also shares my opinion about how time travel works in his universe.
That would be a one-word opinion, I'm guessing?

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
And the Spock Prime character, if he is indeed supposed to be the same as in TOS, did slingshot around the sun to travel along one timeline.

So even if the Red Matter stuff caused a special case of time travel and parallel universe travel, they would still be able to slingshot around a sun to prevent the destruction of Vulcan in that particular parallel universe.
He is supposed to be the same Spock, and in certain TOS stories, slingshotting was indeed employed -- I believe the first such instance was as a result of Spock citing a never-tested intermix formula for a cold restart of the ship's engines. However, it very much looks as if slingshotting is not going to be seen again, or not in the foreseeable future, at any rate.
Dan: Spock Prime could go back in time and stop Nero, like all the other ways they have done before in movies and TV shows in the past Trek lore, he doesn’t need Red Matter to only go back in time to stop Nero. It’s lame for Bob to say that Prime Spok can’t do time travel without Red Matter. When they could just fly around the Sun like he did in Star Trek IV, or Picard did in First Contact.
BobOrci: In our Universe, as long as I am here, you can’t just slingshot around the sun and linear time is a misconception from the middle part of the 20th century.. A good analogy for what we have done here would be to imagine we were rebooting the modern adventures of a sailor, who at the time that his stories were told, it was believed the earth was flat. Now, years later, here in the re-whatever, we know the world is round. So our story exists in a world where the world is now round, despite that being a “canon” violation.


GaryS: Was the timeline that Nero visited the original past up to the point that George Kirk is killed? Or was it always an alternate timeline because Nero was destined to travel there?
BobOrci: We think of it is as identical to the original until Nero arrives.
Slingshotting, as far as Orci is concerned, belongs to an old model, one which has been superseded in the intervening four decades of theoretical astrophysics.

We seem to be wandering away from the main topic somewhat, though.
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Old October 6 2009, 11:05 PM   #19
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Re: How would Sarek explain Spock 'Prime' to the other Vulcan survivor

We seem to be wandering away from the main topic somewhat, though.
A bit. Though my point is that the Vulcans would have a big problem with Spock, if they knew that he was the cause (or one of them) for the destruction of their planet.

Slingshotting, as far as Orci is concerned, belongs to an old model, one which has been superseded in the intervening four decades of theoretical astrophysics.
That's my big problem with Orci. He can't just ignore the rules that Star Trek followed for 40 years (and in my opinion, the time travel and parallel universe stuff was very consistent in Trek). And his reasoning is flawed, too: beaming and warp drive are impossible, too. Why did he include that in the script?
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Old October 6 2009, 11:10 PM   #20
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Re: How would Sarek explain Spock 'Prime' to the other Vulcan survivor

M'Sharak wrote: View Post
Slingshotting, as far as Orci is concerned, belongs to an old model, one which has been superseded in the intervening four decades of theoretical astrophysics
Personally, I think Star Trek trying to keep up with current scientific trends is futile and it's a little bit if a shame if the current creative team is almost embarrassed by what came before as opposed to embracing it.
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Old October 6 2009, 11:16 PM   #21
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Re: How would Sarek explain Spock 'Prime' to the other Vulcan survivor

Especially since the time travel stuff in previous Trek made sense. ENT, "In a Mirror, Darkly" is the perfect example. The Defiant gets thrown back in time, AND into a parallel universe. Each universe has its own timeline. You can cross between universes (they did it in every Mirror Universe episode, Worf did it in Parallels), you can travel along the timeline of each universe (slingshotting around a sun, what the Borg did in First Contact, etc...), and in special cases, like that ENT episode, you can travel back in time and step into a parallel universe.

Same thing happened in this movie, but Orci just doesn't want it to acknowledge that, although it's so easy and hurts no one.
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Old October 7 2009, 12:10 AM   #22
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Re: How would Sarek explain Spock 'Prime' to the other Vulcan survivor

Hey everyone gather 'round, I want you to meet my uncle B'ob.
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Old October 7 2009, 01:23 AM   #23
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Re: How would Sarek explain Spock 'Prime' to the other Vulcan survivor

Shazam! wrote: View Post
Personally, I think Star Trek trying to keep up with current scientific trends is futile and it's a little bit if a shame if the current creative team is almost embarrassed by what came before as opposed to embracing it.
The alternative is to ignore current scientific theories and have your new audiences call you old fashioned and ignorant. One of the points for making this movie was to make it seem, once more, fresh, interesting and relevant.

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Same thing happened in this movie, but Orci just doesn't want it to acknowledge that, although it's so easy and hurts no one.
So... you see it and say it that way, and it still hurts no one. Same difference.

If he'd added it to the script, people would have accused him of spoonfeeding, overly complicating matters or ignoring current theories. You know they would!
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Old October 7 2009, 01:39 AM   #24
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Re: How would Sarek explain Spock 'Prime' to the other Vulcan survivor

vigilia_ognissanti wrote: View Post
Old Spock will call himself Selek, a distant cousin of Sarek's family.
My thought as well.

As for the whole "fixing the timeline" and "no slingshotting" thing: Guardian Of Forever people?

Yeah, yeah, I know some of you will think that big bad Harlan's "Royalty Sense" just start tingling, but they could've used the concept without using the character.
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Old October 7 2009, 01:56 AM   #25
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Re: How would Sarek explain Spock 'Prime' to the other Vulcan survivor

TheGallifreyanSith wrote: View Post
but they could've used the concept without using the character.
Don't poke the bear. Harlan Ellison was already suing Pocket Books and CBS Studios re the "Crucible" novel trilogy.

Didn't you hear the fuss he made when Peter David told him he'd heard a rumour that JJ Abrams was putting the Guardian of Forever into the new movie?
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Old October 7 2009, 02:27 AM   #26
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Re: How would Sarek explain Spock 'Prime' to the other Vulcan survivor

OneBuckFilms wrote: View Post
Spock Prime has no reason to conceal his identity or any of the events in which he was involved.
Aside from the fact he might not want to be interrogated by people wanting to know the future.
Although, he could go hang out with Guinan. She knows plenty of temporal causality and keeping it hush-hush.
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Old October 7 2009, 02:48 AM   #27
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Re: How would Sarek explain Spock 'Prime' to the other Vulcan survivor

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
TheGallifreyanSith wrote: View Post
but they could've used the concept without using the character.
Don't poke the bear. Harlan Ellison was already suing Pocket Books and CBS Studios re the "Crucible" novel trilogy.

Didn't you hear the fuss he made when Peter David told him he'd heard a rumour that JJ Abrams was putting the Guardian of Forever into the new movie?
Yeah, yeah, I heard the fuss. As I said: If you owe him pay him, otherwise HARLAN SHUT THE FUCK UP! IT"S OVER!

But as I said, "the concept". A time portal isn't exactly exclusive to City On The Edge Of Forever. Even if they had to wink and nod it, with "Well I know of several time portals, most are closed to us now. But..." Then just have Spock 1.0 reveal that he knows the locations of a some long forgotten time portal
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Last edited by SeerSGB; October 7 2009 at 01:56 PM.
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Old October 7 2009, 03:47 AM   #28
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Re: How would Sarek explain Spock 'Prime' to the other Vulcan survivor

TheGallifreyanSith wrote: View Post
Then just have Spock 1.0 reveal that he knows the locations of a some long forgotten time portal
And how is that any better or worse? Would pulling that rabbit out of a hat have satisfied the angry 5%? Nope.
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Old October 7 2009, 04:09 AM   #29
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Re: How would Sarek explain Spock 'Prime' to the other Vulcan survivor

Spock will probably take on a different identity, if h'es even in the movie at all.
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Old October 7 2009, 04:12 AM   #30
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Re: How would Sarek explain Spock 'Prime' to the other Vulcan survivor

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Especially since the time travel stuff in previous Trek made sense. ENT, "In a Mirror, Darkly" is the perfect example. The Defiant gets thrown back in time, AND into a parallel universe. Each universe has its own timeline. You can cross between universes (they did it in every Mirror Universe episode, Worf did it in Parallels), you can travel along the timeline of each universe (slingshotting around a sun, what the Borg did in First Contact, etc...), and in special cases, like that ENT episode, you can travel back in time and step into a parallel universe.

Same thing happened in this movie, but Orci just doesn't want it to acknowledge that, although it's so easy and hurts no one.
Exactly.

One thing, though: Does Sarek even know who Spock Prime is? In the actual film, they never met. Was there a deleted scene in which they did encounter each other? If so, do they actually speak, or only pass by? Sarek might have no idea who Spock Prime is, and I doubt Spock would introduce himself as, well, himself. That might cause Sarek too much pain, especially since Spock Prime grew up knowing both parents.
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