RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,622
Posts: 5,426,518
Members: 24,809
Currently online: 480
Newest member: down to earth

TrekToday headlines

IDW Publishing December Trek Comics
By: T'Bonz on Sep 17

September Loot Crate Features Trek Surprise
By: T'Bonz on Sep 16

USS Enterprise Miniature Out For Refit
By: T'Bonz on Sep 16

Star Trek/Planet of the Apes Comic Crossover
By: T'Bonz on Sep 16

Trek 3 Shooting Next Spring?
By: T'Bonz on Sep 16

Star Trek: Alien Domain Game Announced
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15

Red Shirt Diaries Episode Three
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15

Made Out Of Mudd Photonovel
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15

Takei Has Growth Removed
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15

Retro Review: Tears of the Prophets
By: Michelle on Sep 12


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Fandom > Fan Productions

Fan Productions Creating our own Trek canon!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old September 30 2009, 02:10 AM   #241
FalTorPan
Vice Admiral
 
FalTorPan's Avatar
 
Location: Out there... thataway.
Re: Starship Farragut: The Animated Episodes Questions

NEO f/x, do you have any recommended web sites or books for people who might want to do something similar to Starship Farragut: The Animated Episodes?
__________________
Watch ASTRONUTS! Visit Trekplace! Check out my personal website!
FalTorPan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 30 2009, 04:05 AM   #242
NEO f/x
Lieutenant Commander
 
Location: Portland, OR
Re: Starship Farragut: The Animated Episodes Questions

FalTorPan wrote: View Post
NEO f/x, do you have any recommended web sites or books for people who might want to do something similar to Starship Farragut: The Animated Episodes?
Thanks for asking....As most folks may know, we didn't start off with 2D animation. Instead, we are known for our CGI. However the concepts are very similar...basically fooling the eye that what the person sees on the screen is 'real' or 'realistic' with regard to the environment presented.

What you will find is that no matter what the medium is..whether it be 3D or 2D, it really is just a method for telling a story. For example, South Park (and even Filmation-style animation) are not the most advanced animation techniques; however I rarely notice them now as they have established themselves as the delivery mechanisms, and I simply pay attention to the stories at this point.

With this being 2009, I wouldn't worry about finding material on how to do traditional stop-frame animation (which, technically Filmation was...we 'fake' it, as does South Park now). Instead, I would UNDERSTAND how they did it, and see if you can find 2009 method for achieving the look you are going for. Most likely, it will be computer-based, and either Adobe Flash or something similar to that. To get started from even the basic level, you may want to look at items like this: http://goanimate.com/ or
http://www.reallusion.com/reallusion...roductdemo.asp

Bottom line, define the look and style you are going for, and find a method for doing it consistently. But don't let the process of making the animation get in the way of your telling the story. Filmation Trek, by its virtue, is not a lot of action; instead it was typically a lot of talking, head shots, and storytelling. But, don't paint yourself into a box either....once you define your look, expand upon it to do different things and to tell more complex stories.

I wish I could be more helpful with suggestions, but it really is for you to define what you want it to look like and how much time you wish to spend on it. If you want to pump something out quick, something above might work. For your own style, you may have to spend a bit of time and work a lot on it. At the end of the day, it will be YOUR creation, and no one can take that away from you.
__________________
Michael-NEO f/x
http://www.neo-fx.com
NEO f/x is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 30 2009, 08:38 AM   #243
jaksajak
Lieutenant
 
Re: Starship Farragut: The Animated Episodes Questions

NEO f/x wrote: View Post
FalTorPan wrote: View Post
NEO f/x, do you have any recommended web sites or books for people who might want to do something similar to Starship Farragut: The Animated Episodes?
Thanks for asking....As most folks may know, we didn't start off with 2D animation. Instead, we are known for our CGI. However the concepts are very similar...basically fooling the eye that what the person sees on the screen is 'real' or 'realistic' with regard to the environment presented.

What you will find is that no matter what the medium is..whether it be 3D or 2D, it really is just a method for telling a story. For example, South Park (and even Filmation-style animation) are not the most advanced animation techniques; however I rarely notice them now as they have established themselves as the delivery mechanisms, and I simply pay attention to the stories at this point.

With this being 2009, I wouldn't worry about finding material on how to do traditional stop-frame animation (which, technically Filmation was...we 'fake' it, as does South Park now). Instead, I would UNDERSTAND how they did it, and see if you can find 2009 method for achieving the look you are going for. Most likely, it will be computer-based, and either Adobe Flash or something similar to that. To get started from even the basic level, you may want to look at items like this: http://goanimate.com/ or
http://www.reallusion.com/reallusion...roductdemo.asp

Bottom line, define the look and style you are going for, and find a method for doing it consistently. But don't let the process of making the animation get in the way of your telling the story. Filmation Trek, by its virtue, is not a lot of action; instead it was typically a lot of talking, head shots, and storytelling. But, don't paint yourself into a box either....once you define your look, expand upon it to do different things and to tell more complex stories.

I wish I could be more helpful with suggestions, but it really is for you to define what you want it to look like and how much time you wish to spend on it. If you want to pump something out quick, something above might work. For your own style, you may have to spend a bit of time and work a lot on it. At the end of the day, it will be YOUR creation, and no one can take that away from you.
Nice comments!
jaksajak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 1 2009, 12:59 AM   #244
Maurice
Vice Admiral
 
Maurice's Avatar
 
Location: Maurice in San Francisco
Re: Starship Farragut: The Animated Episodes Questions

As a former animator myself I'm going to butt in and make some suggestions.

Michael is correct in that what's the most important thing is to decide what approach you want and how much time you're willing to commit. Most TV animation is "limited". The Filmation style is what Warner Bros.' cartoon great Chuck Jones called "illustrated radio": there's so little animation (other than lip sync) that it is, for all practical purposes, still illustrations punctuated by moments of animation. If you're happy with this level of animation, then that's the level you should aim for...but don't underestimate how much work even that is.

Character animation is even more complicated, because it requires the characters to act primarily through their movements rather than relying on voice alone. This means body language and a myriad of expressions that require a real understanding of expressions and how to "pose" characters, and is vastly more work.

In either case, it's a good idea to understand as much about the subject as possible even if you decide to take the simplest approach. What I'm going to recommend are not related to software, but to animation theory and practices, specficially.

If you have a serious interest in the principles in animation, I recommend the book The Animator's Survival Kit by animation master Richard Williams (Who Framed Roger Rabbit). It totally demystifies the process, from the basics to advanced techniques.

A fun blog by a very opinionated animator who's worth reading even if you don't always agree with his tastes is that of Ren & Stimpy creator John Kricfalusi, who discusses everything from layout to character appear to the downfalls of overly stylized characters.
__________________
* * *
"If you wanted to get a good meeting... just go in and
say 'darker, grittier, sexier' and whatever."
—Glen Larson, 2010
Maurice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 1 2009, 01:58 AM   #245
NEO f/x
Lieutenant Commander
 
Location: Portland, OR
Re: Starship Farragut: The Animated Episodes Questions

DS9Sega wrote: View Post
If you're happy with this level of animation, then that's the level you should aim for...but don't underestimate how much work even that is.
Maurice...you are dead on correct about that....I am going on YEARS that I have been working on the lip sync for the Farragut stuff...now I see why, many times, Filmation simply showed something else when folks were talking.

However, this does go to a good point...it is a LOT of work if you want it to be...depending on the style. Don't be afraid of hard work, however. There is an old saying...if you want what everyone else has, do what they are doing...if you want MORE than the others, you have to do more.
__________________
Michael-NEO f/x
http://www.neo-fx.com
NEO f/x is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 1 2009, 12:24 PM   #246
DogPatch1149
Cadet
 
TNM

EXCELLENT work...the team has truly captured the TAS feel and look, and indeed improved on it noticeably, especially in the area of sound effects.

Nice touch with the Gorn ship resembling the CBSD version. I thought it was neat how the ray effect is basically the exact same as the one from the Klingon cruiser in "More Tribbles, More Troubles"...if I'm not mistaken, the sound is the same as well.

Is Ralph Miller the same person who originally voiced the Gorn in TOS? If he's not, he's got that voice spot-on perfect, especially the way he says "Kirrrrk" and how there's the hiss effect in the translation.

Keep up the fantastic work. The technical talent and obvious love for Star Trek show in everything you do.
DogPatch1149 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 1 2009, 02:22 PM   #247
NEO f/x
Lieutenant Commander
 
Location: Portland, OR
Re: TNM

DogPatch1149 wrote: View Post
EXCELLENT work...the team has truly captured the TAS feel and look, and indeed improved on it noticeably, especially in the area of sound effects.

Nice touch with the Gorn ship resembling the CBSD version. I thought it was neat how the ray effect is basically the exact same as the one from the Klingon cruiser in "More Tribbles, More Troubles"...if I'm not mistaken, the sound is the same as well.

Is Ralph Miller the same person who originally voiced the Gorn in TOS? If he's not, he's got that voice spot-on perfect, especially the way he says "Kirrrrk" and how there's the hiss effect in the translation.

Keep up the fantastic work. The technical talent and obvious love for Star Trek show in everything you do.
Actually, Ralph did not do the original TOS Gorn (there is actually contridictions online on who did, but that is another story). However, Ralph DOES do this Gorn, and another one we haven't seen before. You WILL be able to tell subtle differences in the voice between the two Gorns, but the second one even sounds like it was done by another familiar Trek voice (Think Balok as a Gorn).
__________________
Michael-NEO f/x
http://www.neo-fx.com
NEO f/x is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 3 2009, 02:57 AM   #248
Kelso
Vice Admiral
 
Kelso's Avatar
 
Location: On the destruct button until the last minute!
View Kelso's Twitter Profile
Re: TNM

NEO f/x wrote: View Post
but the second one even sounds like it was done by another familiar Trek voice (Think Balok as a Gorn).
I hope you're talking about Ted's Balok... he'd have made a fantastic Gorn. Though, Vic's certainly would have been interesting.
Kelso is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 3 2009, 04:08 PM   #249
FalTorPan
Vice Admiral
 
FalTorPan's Avatar
 
Location: Out there... thataway.
Re: Starship Farragut: The Animated Episodes Questions

FalTorPan wrote: View Post
NEO f/x, do you have any recommended web sites or books for people who might want to do something similar to Starship Farragut: The Animated Episodes?
Thanks to everyone who replied to my question. John Kricfalusi's blog is very enlightening!

I wasn't entirely clear with my original question. I'm very aware that I have much to learn about 2D animation. Having said that, I'm familiar as a very amateurish hobbyist with related areas, such as 3D animation, digital video editing, visual effects, audio editing, foley work, etc. I just want to dabble with 2D animation for now, but using some of the same tools that others have used in their projects. I am a licensed user of Adobe Creative Suite 4, including Photoshop, After Effects, Flash and other applications that, to this point, I've only used for the aforementioned activities. Does anyone have recommendations about how I might utilize these tools to make an animated short? Obviously I would start with something very simple.

Thanks!
__________________
Watch ASTRONUTS! Visit Trekplace! Check out my personal website!
FalTorPan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 4 2009, 03:48 PM   #250
NEO f/x
Lieutenant Commander
 
Location: Portland, OR
Re: Starship Farragut: The Animated Episodes Questions

FalTorPan wrote: View Post
FalTorPan wrote: View Post
NEO f/x, do you have any recommended web sites or books for people who might want to do something similar to Starship Farragut: The Animated Episodes?
Thanks to everyone who replied to my question. John Kricfalusi's blog is very enlightening!

I wasn't entirely clear with my original question. I'm very aware that I have much to learn about 2D animation. Having said that, I'm familiar as a very amateurish hobbyist with related areas, such as 3D animation, digital video editing, visual effects, audio editing, foley work, etc. I just want to dabble with 2D animation for now, but using some of the same tools that others have used in their projects. I am a licensed user of Adobe Creative Suite 4, including Photoshop, After Effects, Flash and other applications that, to this point, I've only used for the aforementioned activities. Does anyone have recommendations about how I might utilize these tools to make an animated short? Obviously I would start with something very simple.

Thanks!
In that case, since you have the Abode suite (which is what we use), you have all of the tools to do something. For us, it is create the base drawings and any of the moving parts of the character in Photoshop, put them together and animate them in AE for each 'scene', render out the scene, and then put it into a timeline with the other scenes to create a movie in Premiere.

If you are comfortable with Flash, you can take the AE step out and replace it with Flash animations.

I recommend starting with a simple story and character...maybe even a stick figure..that would be easy to animate. I would create a simply story board of the camera angles and the movement, Then move the character around in AE ...possibly making his mouth move (I can give you some tips on that as well).

Does that help at all?
__________________
Michael-NEO f/x
http://www.neo-fx.com
NEO f/x is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 4 2009, 04:18 PM   #251
FalTorPan
Vice Admiral
 
FalTorPan's Avatar
 
Location: Out there... thataway.
Re: Starship Farragut: The Animated Episodes Questions

It does indeed, and so did your previous reply. Thanks again!

Farragut is incredibly cool. Some time ago I put a link to it on the He-Man.org message boards, and people began to wonder what it might be like to see a Masters of the Universe or Blackstar "revival."
__________________
Watch ASTRONUTS! Visit Trekplace! Check out my personal website!
FalTorPan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 4 2009, 04:28 PM   #252
NEO f/x
Lieutenant Commander
 
Location: Portland, OR
Re: Starship Farragut: The Animated Episodes Questions

FalTorPan wrote: View Post
It does indeed, and so did your previous reply. Thanks again!

Farragut is incredibly cool. Some time ago I put a link to it on the He-Man.org message boards, and people began to wonder what it might be like to see a Masters of the Universe or Blackstar "revival."
Um...my arms, hands, and brain are tired from all of the lipsyncing for Farragut..if someone to bring a truck load of money to my house, however, I can probably find a way to work through the pain

Glad the comments were helpful. Once you get into the flow of the work to create the animations, it isn't too bad..just time consuming.
__________________
Michael-NEO f/x
http://www.neo-fx.com
NEO f/x is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 5 2009, 03:41 AM   #253
jaksajak
Lieutenant
 
Re: Starship Farragut: The Animated Episodes Questions

Whats up, everyone. I animate with Flash and also use it to draw. It has a great drawing tool that helps with contouring the lines. If you'd like a cleaner look though, you can use the actual line tool, but I find that to be less intuitive. There are lots of tutorials out there and other ways to get started. The animation is done on a timeline via tweening and it works pretty well depending on your experience. The newer versions of Flash also have filters for basic lighting effects, which I've been experimenting with. Feel free to PM or post any questions, this forum has lots of experienced and talented production artists.
jaksajak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 5 2009, 10:12 AM   #254
AJBryant
Fleet Captain
 
AJBryant's Avatar
 
Location: Indiana
Re: Starship Farragut: The Animated Episodes Questions

Have you thought of writing an article (or maybe a book thing) on how to do computer-based animation? With the TAS tie in, you have a good special niche point to work from. I'd buy it.
__________________
Abba Anthony [St. Anthony the Great] said, "A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him, saying, 'You are mad; you are not like us.' " -- Wisdom of the Desert Fathers
AJBryant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 5 2009, 02:12 PM   #255
NEO f/x
Lieutenant Commander
 
Location: Portland, OR
Re: Starship Farragut: The Animated Episodes Questions

AJBryant wrote: View Post
Have you thought of writing an article (or maybe a book thing) on how to do computer-based animation? With the TAS tie in, you have a good special niche point to work from. I'd buy it.
Ironically, yes I have...I have written three articles previously for a magazine call HDRI3D, which as the name hints at, is for mostly 3D artists. I did start an article a couple months ago about the animated episodes, but was in the middle of finishing Power Source, so I had to delay it.

The most difficult part of the article was actually giving some indepth informtion. When it comes down to it, all I am doing is setting up animations in AE using time remapped keyframes. Nothing really spectacular, and I was advised by the editors to 'flavor' it up with more about how digital animation contrasts traditional cel animation.

The article may yet see the light of day...but probably next year between projects.
__________________
Michael-NEO f/x
http://www.neo-fx.com
NEO f/x is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 02:50 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.