RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,684
Posts: 5,430,438
Members: 24,829
Currently online: 413
Newest member: Enabran


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Entertainment & Interests > Science and Technology

Science and Technology "Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known." - Carl Sagan.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old September 19 2009, 09:04 PM   #16
sojourner
Admiral
 
sojourner's Avatar
 
Location: I'm at WKRP
Re: FutureTimeline

I never said the choices were the right ones for everyone. People work for money and spend it on what they feel is important. Not sure how that repudates that we have limited resources.

Hon ... why are resources never a problem when individuals flash money for their own purposes (regardless of how stupid and wasteful they might be)?
Circular argument. Certain resources are rare, hence having to flash the money. If they weren't, then why aren't they free?

Look at what is happening in the computer world today.
Outdated techs are being milked for money by companies.
New techs that were supposed to have been much cheaper for the consumer ALWAYS end up as premium priced and some of the best of those NEVER go down in price.
Yes, clearly the tech industry never introduces new tech and prices never drop. Ever compare prices of laptops from 10 years ago with today? The spec's of same laptops? How bout those Ipods? they certainly haven't change in 10 years. Good thing LCD screens never got released wouldn't want to replace all those CRT's out there ....oh wait! Or my desktop PC, glad the best I can buy is a 486 with a 100meg hard drive for $3000 dollars.

It always pains me when people try to claim that there is no such thing as limited resources. Clearly they have not researched at all.

In a capitalist economy the consumer decides where resources get used. Don't like it? Get them to change their mind.
__________________
Baby, you and me were never meant to be, just maybe think of me once in a while...
sojourner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 19 2009, 09:54 PM   #17
Deks
Rear Admiral
 
Re: FutureTimeline

Don't push what I said out of context.
I never said that changes don't occur in the tech industry ... problem is that the changes happen over a LARGE span of time, and some technologies never come down in prices before they are replaced by new technologies that are equally expensive.

Point being ... numerous techs (such as top of the line c2d cpu's for laptops) are out of reach for the mid range consumers (who do heavy computational work for example and need mobility) simply due to the costs and end up with lower grade systems that they can afford.
I paid my own laptop £600 for example (Acer 5930G). It has a c2d Centrino2, 4Gb RAM, 9600m GT GDDR3 dedicated gpu and a 250GB HDD.
Numerous other laptops of same configuration TODAY cost at least £300 - 400 more for example (that's just a rough estimate), and the laptop I have now is no longer available for purchase in UK for some reason.
In short, I was lucky to have gotten this thing when I did.

The consumer may decide where resources get used, but the general population is often behaving in an ignorant capacity to begin with and the companies are milking old technologies for all they are worth.

Intel delayed release of it's new i7 chips for laptops due to this so they can stick with the Montevina range longer and get more money out of it.
AMD for example has not released anything of relevance when mobile cpu's are involved and is sorely lacking ... which is also giving Intel the advantage in the market and why prices for such laptops are high.

You also have to be extremely detailed if you want to find a laptop that say combines an Intel cpu which is powerful/affordable with an ATI dedicated gpu (which are by comparison cheaper than Nvidia's).
__________________
We are who we choose to be but also have predefined aspects of our personalities we are born with, and make art that defines us.
Deks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 21 2009, 01:22 AM   #18
Doran
Lieutenant Commander
 
Doran's Avatar
 
Location: midwest
Re: FutureTimeline

I'd say that the cost of technology has dropped considering you get more bang for your buck. Todays's computers have an incredible amount of processing power per dollar spent. I bought my first PC for just under $2000.00 (thats right two thousand dollars) and I had 256K of processing power. The laptop I own today is incredibly more powerful and cost exceedingly less.
Yes, resources are limited. However our monitary system is not bound to our resources anymore. Go into your bank and ask to see your money. They will show you a printout. That's your money. Our economy got out of control just like Germany's did in the pre-WWII era. We pretty much decided that if we needed it we'd just print more, it is no long backed by gold and silver. The power of the almighty dollar in international circles is not based upon it's actual value, but based upon the military power that backs it up. Okay, that ought to be enough to get your guys ire up...
__________________
"I'm from Iowa ... I only work in outer space..."

http://ncc1954ussvincennes.myfreeforum.org

Last edited by Doran; September 21 2009 at 01:23 AM. Reason: typo
Doran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 21 2009, 11:47 AM   #19
Shawnster
Fleet Captain
 
Shawnster's Avatar
 
Location: Clinton, OH
Re: FutureTimeline

Myasishchev wrote: View Post
Doran wrote: View Post
Capitolism is the impediment. Communism is Star Trek's answer to this problem. Don't be offended... these are economic terms, not political. Thru the years, their meanings have become misconstrued.
But as leftist as I am, "cost" doesn't cease to exist in a socialist framework.

I disagree with Sojourner, too--money isn't a paper representation of the labor theory of value. It's a paper representation of the market's determination of worth.
In addition to economics/money being a limiting factor there is also politics coming into play. Government sector vs. Corporate sector vs. Private sector also factor in to our development and expansion. Why does the government limit this or that?

For example why haven't any private companies ventured to the moon? Were there private space programs in the 50s, 60s and 70s or was it just the government?

Aren't there some areas of research and development that still need government approval before the private sector can proceed? As long as any government doesn't want to give up power or give permission for non-governmental agencies to work in various areas, government will hinder growth and expansion.

How much hindrance is due to money, how much is due to resources and how much is due to governments wanting power or control?
Shawnster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 21 2009, 11:59 AM   #20
flux_29
Commodore
 
flux_29's Avatar
 
Location: England
Re: FutureTimeline

Cool. Wonder if half of it will ever happen though.
__________________
"The best diplomat that I know is a fully-loaded phaser bank." -- Lt. Cdr. Montgomery Scott ("A Taste of Armageddon")

"Victory is mine!" -- Stewie (Family Guy)
flux_29 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 21 2009, 01:37 PM   #21
Deks
Rear Admiral
 
Re: FutureTimeline

Doran wrote: View Post
I'd say that the cost of technology has dropped considering you get more bang for your buck. Todays's computers have an incredible amount of processing power per dollar spent. I bought my first PC for just under $2000.00 (thats right two thousand dollars) and I had 256K of processing power. The laptop I own today is incredibly more powerful and cost exceedingly less.
Yes, resources are limited. However our monitary system is not bound to our resources anymore. Go into your bank and ask to see your money. They will show you a printout. That's your money. Our economy got out of control just like Germany's did in the pre-WWII era. We pretty much decided that if we needed it we'd just print more, it is no long backed by gold and silver. The power of the almighty dollar in international circles is not based upon it's actual value, but based upon the military power that backs it up. Okay, that ought to be enough to get your guys ire up...
Oh I do agree that technology does change and you get more bang for the buck as times progress, however, numerous technologies in the 'high-end' range never come down in price until they become obsolete and are replaced completely (which happens after years of waiting).
A prime example would be an extreme version of a mobile C2D cpu from Intel which price is an equivalent if not higher compared to a mobile C2Q such as the Q9000 (also from Intel) or an entry i5.

Nvidia?
They have been reducing the manufacturing process of their gpu's over the past 3 years and increasing core clocks for the most part, renaming the existing cards that gained 20% or 30% in speed for the same temps and slightly lower if not same power consumption, and charged the same, or sometimes twice as much compared to before.
The architecture of the gpu's is the same ... only the die shrink has changed.

And in effect ... those are essentially desktop gpu's inside notebooks ... terribly under clocked and extremely overpriced for one reason alone: profit.

I realize they capitalize on the portability of power at your disposal (and I personally need a laptop because it's sufficiently powerful for my 3d art and portable), but notebooks are lacking compared to desktops in power not because we lack the ability to do it, but it's because the companies don't want to lose money.
They want to milk both as much as possible, and have a tendency of using the older tech so they can gear out every cent out of it before switching to new ones.

Advances happen, but they end up delayed by years (which only adds up over several decades alone) because they want to make more money.

And money as in currency no longer regulates resources really as you already mentioned.
I do not deny the fact we have finite resources on the planet, but we have the ability to make the switch to newer techs that would not only help us, but allow for better preservation and utilization of those resources and the ones in positions of power simply don't want to do it.
We have tons of wasteful enterprises this day that can be easily viewed as a drain of our resources ... yet I do not see an immediate demise on the horizon.
'Costs' are the issue, jobs are the issue, and a ton of other things they will make an excuse for in order to further their agenda.

We have the resources to do things and we wouldn't end up draining them suddenly if we made the transition to new technologies that are more efficient and better.
They can also recycle the old tech and use it to create the new one, but again ... 'costs' come into play because recycling is an 'expensive' procedure.
By this analogy since we aren't really doing anything efficiently and are wasting resources as it is ... switching to new techs faster would hardly kill us.

Oh ... one more thing about notebooks.
They lack in modularity.
Again, it's not because we can't do it (they already have everything in place), it's because the companies in question make more money when people buy new laptops instead of upgrading internal components that don't cost too much money (so of course the manufacturers will put out a gazillion different types of the same laptop that varies in capabilities and upgrade potential ... for example, even though I have a PM45 chipset, right now I'm only limited to 4GB of RAM, predominantly due to the fact the 4GB sticks for laptops are expensive, and for the other because Acer only released a BIOS capable of using 4GB RAM max ... so it's a BIOS limitation despite the fact the chipset design/hardware can support it).
Crippling tech in essence.

Even in the case of MXM capable laptops it's not always possible to replace the gpu for one thing as it has to be compatible with the slot, and for the other the cards in question are rare to find and are exceedingly expensive for purchase (over a half of money of what a mid-range laptop in US or UK would cost).
__________________
We are who we choose to be but also have predefined aspects of our personalities we are born with, and make art that defines us.
Deks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 21 2009, 09:30 PM   #22
Myasishchev
Rear Admiral
 
Myasishchev's Avatar
 
Location: America after the rain
Re: FutureTimeline

Doran wrote: View Post
I'd say that the cost of technology has dropped considering you get more bang for your buck. Todays's computers have an incredible amount of processing power per dollar spent. I bought my first PC for just under $2000.00 (thats right two thousand dollars) and I had 256K of processing power. The laptop I own today is incredibly more powerful and cost exceedingly less.
Yes, resources are limited. However our monitary system is not bound to our resources anymore. Go into your bank and ask to see your money. They will show you a printout. That's your money. Our economy got out of control just like Germany's did in the pre-WWII era. We pretty much decided that if we needed it we'd just print more, it is no long backed by gold and silver. The power of the almighty dollar in international circles is not based upon it's actual value, but based upon the military power that backs it up. Okay, that ought to be enough to get your guys ire up...


Sure, fiat currency is the devil.
__________________

Myasishchev is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 21 2009, 10:58 PM   #23
Meredith
Vice Admiral
 
Meredith's Avatar
 
Location: Abh Space
Re: FutureTimeline

Doran wrote: View Post
Capitolism is the impediment. Communism is Star Trek's answer to this problem. Don't be offended... these are economic terms, not political. Thru the years, their meanings have become misconstrued.
The brand of Communism as it exists in Trek can only exist in a "Post Scarcity environment" Ie. Cheap replication technology and abundant energy production.

That would involve robotics, near free energy and technology that can take molecules of dirt and re-organize it into other substances, structures and other stuff.

Basically Poop to Boots level tech....
__________________
Laws only work if everyone is honest, no piece of paper is going to stop a truly deranged person from doing something atrocious.
Meredith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 22 2009, 01:38 AM   #24
Doran
Lieutenant Commander
 
Doran's Avatar
 
Location: midwest
Re: FutureTimeline

Shawnster asks:
How much hindrance is due to money, how much is due to resources and how much is due to governments wanting power or control?

Great question, and good fodder to ponder on. And yes Meredith, I agree with you.
__________________
"I'm from Iowa ... I only work in outer space..."

http://ncc1954ussvincennes.myfreeforum.org

Last edited by Doran; September 22 2009 at 01:41 AM. Reason: additional thought
Doran is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
future, futurism, robots, space

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 09:10 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.