RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 140,145
Posts: 5,434,221
Members: 24,934
Currently online: 528
Newest member: davidhan

TrekToday headlines

Two Official Starships Collection Ships
By: T'Bonz on Oct 22

Pine In New Skit
By: T'Bonz on Oct 21

Stewart In Holiday Film
By: T'Bonz on Oct 21

The Red Shirt Diaries #8
By: T'Bonz on Oct 20

IDW Publishing January Comics
By: T'Bonz on Oct 20

Retro Review: Chrysalis
By: Michelle on Oct 18

The Next Generation Season Seven Blu-ray Details
By: T'Bonz on Oct 17

CBS Launches Streaming Service
By: T'Bonz on Oct 17

Yelchin In New Indie Thriller
By: T'Bonz on Oct 17

Saldana In The Book of Life
By: T'Bonz on Oct 17


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Entertainment & Interests > Science Fiction & Fantasy

Science Fiction & Fantasy Farscape, Babylon 5, Star Wars, Firefly, vampires, genre books and film.

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old September 19 2009, 12:44 AM   #61
stonester1
Rear Admiral
 
stonester1's Avatar
 
Re: Why is Firefly's Cancellation So Unforgiveable?

Preach.
__________________
"New and stirring things are belittled because if they are not belittled, the humiliating question arises, 'Why then are you not taking part in them?' " - H. G. Wells
stonester1 is offline  
Old September 19 2009, 12:47 AM   #62
stonester1
Rear Admiral
 
stonester1's Avatar
 
Re: Why is Firefly's Cancellation So Unforgiveable?

TheGallifreyanSith wrote: View Post
Dusty Ayres wrote: View Post
stonester1 wrote: View Post
If you are going to bother to pay someone for their storytelling skills (which is not what the beancounters are paid for), you stand back and let them DO THEIR JOB.

If the beancounters could do it themselves, they would. But clearly, they can't.

You don't have the writers down there in accounting checking the balance sheets?

Why? NOT THEIR JOB.


And if you need any explanation for the state of "entertainment", you need go no further.
Exactly why we need antitrust proceedings to break up all of these media monopolies, and soon, as I've said before.
Which would solve nothing. All it would do is create more competition, and in doing so drive the smaller studios to take fewer risks and go for what they know is going to sell.
Or in some cases, counter-program, do something different to stand out from the pack.

We have to remember sci-fi fans are not the majority of average TV viewers, and hardcore "Save our show" types a even smaller minority of that.
Which is why not everyone should shoot for the exact same audience.

There are underserved demographics who aren't looking for the same pablum, the kind that watch Dancing With The Stars (whom Tom Delay is now listed as a coming contestant, yeesh).
__________________
"New and stirring things are belittled because if they are not belittled, the humiliating question arises, 'Why then are you not taking part in them?' " - H. G. Wells
stonester1 is offline  
Old September 19 2009, 12:53 AM   #63
barnaclelapse
Commodore
 
barnaclelapse's Avatar
 
Location: Waverly, VA.
Send a message via AIM to barnaclelapse
Re: Why is Firefly's Cancellation So Unforgiveable?

It really only bothered me to the extent that I would have liked to have seen a couple more seasons. I definitely don't think it was a show meant to run for ten years or even more, but I certainly wish it could have gone two or three times around the block. It was at the time some of the best character-driven sci-fi I had seen on TV in quite some time, and I think that only would have gotten better.
barnaclelapse is offline  
Old September 19 2009, 12:55 AM   #64
SeerSGB
Admiral
 
SeerSGB's Avatar
 
Location: Out There...That Away
View SeerSGB's Twitter Profile
Re: Why is Firefly's Cancellation So Unforgiveable?

stonester1 wrote: View Post
TheGallifreyanSith wrote: View Post
Dusty Ayres wrote: View Post

Exactly why we need antitrust proceedings to break up all of these media monopolies, and soon, as I've said before.
Which would solve nothing. All it would do is create more competition, and in doing so drive the smaller studios to take fewer risks and go for what they know is going to sell.
Or in some cases, counter-program, do something different to stand out from the pack.

We have to remember sci-fi fans are not the majority of average TV viewers, and hardcore "Save our show" types a even smaller minority of that.
Which is why not everyone should shoot for the exact same audience.

There are underserved demographics who aren't looking for the same pablum, the kind that watch Dancing With The Stars (whom Tom Delay is now listed as a coming contestant, yeesh).
If it pays the bills.

What you're talking about will never pay the bills of the big studios or networks. The reason shows like American Idol and Dancing with the Stars survive is because that's what pays the bills, that's what they can sell to mom, dad, sis, and little bro over and over again in first run, reruns, DVDs, school supplies, etc, etc.

The only outlet for niche audiences in the 'net. And I don't mean fanfilms, I mean people taking chances and making original dramatic fiction shows and movies purely for release on the internet. It's been toyed with off and on for years and there's been a few productions. But it's never took off cause no one's ever put their backbone in trying to make it work; there's not been money in it-- not at the levels the studios want-- so it's never taken seriously.
__________________
- SeerSGB -
"I've made many mistakes, and it's about time that I did something about that." The Doctor (Deep Breath)
| Blog | Homepage |
SeerSGB is offline  
Old September 19 2009, 12:57 AM   #65
stonester1
Rear Admiral
 
stonester1's Avatar
 
Re: Why is Firefly's Cancellation So Unforgiveable?

"Paying the bills" is whatever pays for itself, plus some over, ie "profit".

And there are PLENTY of niche products that have done this.

Not everyone or everything has to shoot for the broadest and the blandest. And not everything that does hits the mark.

Fortunately, there are some folks in the studios who actually have vision and backbone enough to realize this.
__________________
"New and stirring things are belittled because if they are not belittled, the humiliating question arises, 'Why then are you not taking part in them?' " - H. G. Wells
stonester1 is offline  
Old September 19 2009, 01:34 AM   #66
Kaijima
Captain
 
Kaijima's Avatar
 
Location: United States
Re: Why is Firefly's Cancellation So Unforgiveable?

Personally, I believe that while the show was not as godlike as the diehard Whedon fans believe, it also was a world apart from Whedon's previous work.

In other words, Firefly was where Whedon was /beginning/ to get serious and was consciously struggling to raise himself out of the "hack" category, putting the good parts of his abilities to use. People who dismiss the show as being "just like all his other stuff" are reading in what isn't there; not all the characters are his stock characters, they actually have different voices and personalities, and the universe he was setting up had much more nuance and was damned intriguing.

Truthfully, Firefly showed the most potential of any major sci-fi to make it on television in years, especially because it showed signs of being a postmodern space opera: its rethinking of space opera tropes was more in line with modern authors like Alastair Reynolds than with the Star Trek-age ideas that have fueled (and been mined clean) mass market sci-fi for decades. It was a better show than Moore's BSG in many ways. (For one thing, while it was clear Whedon and Mineer were interested in turning sci-fi on its ear, they didn't show open disdain for the genre that Moore did and caused BSG's mythology to fall apart.)

So yeah, there's a really bitter pill to swallow. To draw a comparison: what if say, NuBSG had been suddenly canceled after the first 13 episodes, at the episode 13 cliffhanger? How much brutal sting of wasted potential would have been felt, and how much bad blood would have been directed at the network involved? I suspect it would have made the Farscape cancellation look like a girl scout campfire.

While lots of "browncoat" fans have been very annoying, I think you can argue Firefly getting screwed over is maybe the biggest missed opportunity in television sci-fi in the 21st century.
Kaijima is offline  
Old September 19 2009, 01:48 AM   #67
Lindley
Moderator with a Soul
 
Location: Fairfax, VA
Re: Why is Firefly's Cancellation So Unforgiveable?

Kaijima wrote: View Post
Personally, I believe that while the show was not as godlike as the diehard Whedon fans believe, it also was a world apart from Whedon's previous work.

In other words, Firefly was where Whedon was /beginning/ to get serious and was consciously struggling to raise himself out of the "hack" category, putting the good parts of his abilities to use. People who dismiss the show as being "just like all his other stuff" are reading in what isn't there; not all the characters are his stock characters, they actually have different voices and personalities, and the universe he was setting up had much more nuance and was damned intriguing.
While it was clear that Firefly represented a maturation in his capabilities as a creator, you aren't giving his previous work enough credit. Buffy and Angel's characters were just as diverse and interesting, and had voices just as distinct. Only the setting was different.

I am absolutely in favor of the statement that Firefly is nothing like what most people's preconceptions of Buffy and Angel would lead them to suspect. However, since most people's preconceptions of Buffy and Angel are inevitably wrong once they actually see the things, that doesn't translate to a statement about the shows' relative merits.

There's no question in my mind that, had it continued, Firefly would have surpassed them both. But as it stands, I still think Angel is the strongest of the three.
__________________
Lead Organizer for EVN: Firefly.
"So apparently the really smart zombies have automatic weapons!"
-Torg, Sluggy Freelance
Lindley is offline  
Old September 19 2009, 01:50 AM   #68
Admiral Buzzkill
Fleet Admiral
 
Re: Why is Firefly's Cancellation So Unforgiveable?

the Dagman wrote: View Post
I was just making my point that you people never shut up about the show.
And we will not any time soon. So nu?

Firefly is not the best thing that Whedon has done - on balance Buffy is still head and shoulders above his other work; it contains more variety, more interesting themes and remains the best expression of, for lack of a better phrase, his agnosticism regarding virtue as an ideal. Firefly happens to be set in the future on a spaceship and therefore hit a little bigger with the skiffy crowd.
Admiral Buzzkill is offline  
Old September 19 2009, 02:14 AM   #69
mimic
Rear Admiral
 
mimic's Avatar
 
Location: Virginia
Re: Why is Firefly's Cancellation So Unforgiveable?

TheGallifreyanSith wrote: View Post
Depends on how you define hack. I would firmly slot Whedon into the hack category. With the bulk of his success being on his name and the fact that he sells what tweens and teens want. Most of his work, stretching a prior metaphor further, is the television equivelant of a Big Mac with the realtive entertainment value of said's nutritional value.
This isn't solely directed at TheGallifreyanSith as it seems to have come up in lots of places lately. I am so sick of being told that I'm a tween, annoying, a cult member, tasteless, etc. for liking Whedon's shows. So you don't like his work. Congratulations on that. Can't you express this sentiment without taking jabs at those who do?

I came to Firefly late in the game but its cancellation still affects how I watch TV. I'm definitely aware that most shows aren't given much of a chance by networks, so I'm unwilling to get invested in them. All of the shows I currently watch I caught on DVD or Hulu after they'd been well established (House, Lost, The Office).
__________________
"Freeze Ray. Tell your friends." - Dr. Horrible

"And since I do not go into nuclear reactor cores I am free to trouble my brain over artificial sweeteners." - Goji
mimic is offline  
Old September 19 2009, 02:44 AM   #70
mswood
Rear Admiral
 
mswood's Avatar
 
Location: 9th level of Hell
Re: Why is Firefly's Cancellation So Unforgiveable?

Ok first it would help if people actually understood that all of things that happened to Firefly happen to many shows.

First Firefly wasn't a tightly scripted serial,and even some serials do get run out of order. In other words, one episode didn't directly tie to the next.

Yeah the pulot was aired last, but there are may shows where they never air the pilot (the reason they did was most likely just to have something to show, that didn't cost them anything else for a property that they were no longer going to produce).

Fox makes a tremendous amount of money (plus great ad time at the most sought after demo's Males 18-34 and males 18-49) with Baseball. This consumes a huge part of the Fall schedule. Most of Fox's programming gets preempted at some time (and sometimes often) during this time of the year.

Many shows get changes of schedules where they move from night to night or to a different time slot.

Again you are looking at one show. The studio has to look at really 6 nights and whats best for those nights. They also get extremely detailed demo breakdown (age, gender, income) and most of that we never saw) and that plays a huge part.

Promotions, the show got tons. It started as one of the most promoted shows on that season for Fox. And when it couldn't hold those ratings, the ads stopped (and thats how the business works), you don't throw a ton of money after something that isn't performing (and again we got viewer totals and the 18-49 adult demo, we never saw any more and that could have been a huge, huge factor.
__________________
My fandom will SALT and BURN your fandom!
mswood is offline  
Old September 19 2009, 03:30 AM   #71
Jax
Admiral
 
Jax's Avatar
 
Location: United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland
Re: Why is Firefly's Cancellation So Unforgiveable?

No matter your feelings on the show, FOX screwed it up they didn't get it and tried to change it...Critics and fans agree FOX were idiots.
__________________
If Fidelity to freedom and democracy is the code of our civic religion then surely the code of our humanity is faithful service to that unwritten commandment that says we shall give our children better than we ourselves received
Jax is offline  
Old September 19 2009, 03:51 AM   #72
Admiral Buzzkill
Fleet Admiral
 
Re: Why is Firefly's Cancellation So Unforgiveable?

mimic wrote: View Post
I am so sick of being told that I'm a tween, annoying, a cult member, tasteless, etc. for liking Whedon's shows. So you don't like his work. Congratulations on that.
I'd be more impressed if the folks who do that championed better shows and better writers than they in fact usually do.
Admiral Buzzkill is offline  
Old September 19 2009, 04:09 AM   #73
Chrisisall
Commodore
 
Chrisisall's Avatar
 
Re: Why is Firefly's Cancellation So Unforgiveable?

mswood wrote: View Post
Promotions, the show got tons. It started as one of the most promoted shows on that season for Fox.
And back then I tuned in, saw "The Train Job," and wondered who these peeps were, and why I should care about them. Later I saw the pilot on DVD, and realized my mistake.
Bottom line: the suits are stupid.
Chrisisall is offline  
Old September 19 2009, 06:21 AM   #74
zakkrusz
Rear Admiral
 
zakkrusz's Avatar
 
Location: The Wired
Re: Why is Firefly's Cancellation So Unforgiveable?

Heck, I wasn't even following the show during its run, (got into it through DVD) and still curse FOX for canning it. Why? Because it was damn good, and it always sucks *insert colorful metaphor* when a show you've been following gets the axe. There is so much wasted potential in the Firefly universe that never got to be explored.
__________________
"There are few wars between good and evil; most are between one good and another good."
—Yang Wen-li-Legend of the Galactic Heroes
zakkrusz is offline  
Old September 19 2009, 07:28 AM   #75
Thespeckledkiwi
Vice Admiral
 
Location: TheBolianChef is no more! It's theSpeckledKiwi now!
Re: Why is Firefly's Cancellation So Unforgiveable?

How the hell is the Friday night slot more of a death slot than the time before the Simpson's on Sunday slot? Seriously, Futurama had pretty much everything like Firefly...some episodes were either ran out of order or pushed back or halfed the season, it was in one of the worst slots ever (football game ran over, canceled Futurama without any warning), but unlike Firefly, Fox toyed with canceling it forever. Yes they did get an ending and they lasted a little longer but they were starting to really get their legs by that season.
Thespeckledkiwi is offline  
Closed Thread

Bookmarks

Tags
browncoats, firefly

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 03:12 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.