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Old September 18 2009, 03:15 PM   #31
the Dagman
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Re: Why is Firefly's Cancellation So Unforgiveable?

Lindley wrote: View Post
^That's a huge spin of the results too, though. You say "28 threads in the last 24 hours" as if they've all been discussing Firefly that time, which they obviously haven't.

I just did play around with search a bit. There have been 12 threads with "Firefly" in the title in all of 2009. Of the remaining threads on the first page of "Search entire post" results, most of them are subjects where it's perfectly reasonable for it to come up, and/or really long threads where it's not unreasonable to suppose it may have been mentioned at some point. The remaining threads I'll grant I'm curious how it came up (not really sure how it's relevant to Karl Urban's hair color).
Yes, I shorthanded the description a bit there. As I stated earlier, it is 28 threads active in the last 24 hours. And I addressed the rest of your point in this post:

the Dagman wrote: View Post
Lindley wrote: View Post
That's misleading. Some of those threads are very long, and if the word "Firefly" was mentioned *anywhere* in them even once, they'll show up in that list regardless of what the latest activity was about.

But even if there were that much discussion, so what? The fact that we still have stuff to talk about after all this time just answers the question in this thread's OP. It's not something we're going to apologize for.
And I wasn't asking for one.

I was just making my point that you people never shut up about the show. The fact that it may have been mentioned only once in each of those threads disproves my point how? In fact, that just makes it worse! In that you fans feel the need to interject some mention of that show that many times in a short period, even in subjects totally unrelated to the show, only strengthens my point.
Oh, and btw, I searched all the threads I have posted in. Well, the last 200 at least. But that goes back to March of this year. And this is the only thread about Firefly I have posted in in all that time. I did post in the thread about if you think Whedon is overrated, which I agreed he is. And I also said good for him for getting his foot into Hollywood and we should all be so lucky. But that is it. So it isn't like I am hounding you fans on this. I am merely stating an observation and making a point.

And your point saying Firefly is like Doctor Who? No. It's not. I have been watching Who since the 70s and it is totally different. At least in my opinion.

Anyways, my point is made. I will drop the bone and pull my head out of the fence now. Carry on, you incessant Browncoats.

(eta: to the snarks about posting about star trek: Those forums still exist? I haven't posted or even looked at them in years. Plus, wasn't there a recent movie about that that has yet to be released on DVD? I haven't seen it but that may be a bit more timely than talking about a show that has been dead for years, that has no hope of ever returning, and doesn't have a forum dedicated to it like so many of those other shows mentioned. Just sayin'...)
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Old September 18 2009, 03:20 PM   #32
Lindley
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Re: Why is Firefly's Cancellation So Unforgiveable?

the Dagman wrote: View Post
And your point saying Firefly is like Doctor Who? No. It's not. I have been watching Who since the 70s and it is totally different. At least in my opinion.
No, Firefly isn't much like Doctor Who. Not directly. But Russel T Davies' style is clearly influenced by Joss Whedon's style. And that leads to similar conceits in their respective shows. Both are willing to put up with a bit of implausibility if it serves the characters, certainly.

The stylistic parallels between Buffy and Davies' Who are notable, but even more obvious is the correlation between Angel and Torchwood. Despite Torchwood feeling rather juvenile all too often, the basic setup is pretty darn similar to Angel in many ways.

Both are about a small team fighting (aliens/demons) led by a brooding immortal guy who stands on rooftops and wears big black coats. And that's just the most obvious similarity.

Perhaps Torchwood will have a law firm as their arch-enemy next season....

(eta: to the snarks about posting about star trek: Those forums still exist? I haven't posted or even looked at them in years.
Same here unless there's a thread on the front page that catches my eye. Even that is pretty rare.

Plus, wasn't there a recent movie about that that has yet to be released on DVD? I haven't seen it
You should, good movie.

but that may be a bit more timely than talking about a show that has been dead for years, that has no hope of ever returning
I don't think Firefly/Serenity is at all likely to come back, at least not on the screen. But never say never, especially in this age when remakes are apparently in vogue.
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Last edited by Lindley; September 18 2009 at 03:32 PM.
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Old September 18 2009, 03:20 PM   #33
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Re: Why is Firefly's Cancellation So Unforgiveable?

Actually, there was no comparison to Firefly. There was more of a comparison to Whedon's works and Who, specifically new Who and Buffy.

But careless, inexact interpretations are the basis of your "debate", I see.
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Old September 18 2009, 04:00 PM   #34
Sakrysta
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Re: Why is Firefly's Cancellation So Unforgiveable?

Oh brother. It's like a train wreck. I know better, but I can't look away.

First, to answer the OP's question, Firefly fandom was one of those phenomena that just seems to develop a life of its own. Those who loved it REALLY loved it. It hit at a time when online fandom was just starting to realize its potential - that we had tools at our disposal to help fight for a show we really loved. And love for the show fostered a camraderie that many of us had never experienced to that degree before. We all pretty much felt like the new Trekkers, only intensified, because we didn't have to wait for fanzines or conventions to get together with other fans and gush about what we loved.

As to why the cancellation was unforgiveable, while I think Firefly's popularity does have a lot to do with it, I also think its cancellation was just the straw that broke the camel's back. For years Fox had been cancelling genre programming left and right - shows that people had grown attached to in much the same way as Firefly. And a lot of Firefly fans also loved those shows, and started talking about it, and well, it just grew into a huge antipathy for Fox and its programming choices. We also had Joss online giving us details about how frustrated he and the other producers were with how Fox was treating the show. Joss can be quite the flames-fanner when he cares about something, and he loved Firefly with every breath that was in him.

As to why the word Firefly shows up all over the board, the simple answer is that people are here to talk about what they like. Apparently, a lot of the people who like Star Trek enough to join a message board community also like Firefly enough to mention it on occasion in their conversations. As much as the Dagman wishes people would shut up about Firefly, I wish people who didn't like the show would stop accusing fans of some imagined rabid fixation. We talk about what we enjoy. If you don't enjoy Firefly, go find something you do enjoy and talk about that. I promise, I won't do any searches on your favorite show and accuse you of obsession.
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Old September 18 2009, 04:33 PM   #35
Forbin
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Re: Why is Firefly's Cancellation So Unforgiveable?

For me it was the lost potential. I liked those characters, I liked the universe they inhabited, I liked the originality of the concept, and I was curious about some of the plot threads being set up. Then POOF! All gone.

And a lot of the anger rises from Fox having done exactly the same damn thing over and over in the past:
Space: Above and Beyond
Dark Angel
Alien Nation
Strange Luck
The Adventures of Brisco County Jr.
M.A.N.T.I.S
VR.5
Roar
Strange Luck
Freakylinks
Night Visions
The Lone Gumen
The Visitor
Kindred: The Embraced
John Doe
Tru Calling
Alien Nation
Greg the Bunny
Lone Gunmen
Millenium
Sliders
and more...

It continues to confuse me why Fox would even order a genre program any more, or why a producer would want Fox to buy his show.
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Old September 18 2009, 05:03 PM   #36
BenRoethig
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Re: Why is Firefly's Cancellation So Unforgiveable?

For me, it was just too interesting to be canceled. I loved the premise and the characters.
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Old September 18 2009, 05:12 PM   #37
Temis the Vorta
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Re: Why is Firefly's Cancellation So Unforgiveable?

I don't see how Fox's handling of the show was strikingly worse than other travesties I could name. The difference is that people liked the show more than they like most cancellation victims; or there are more Browncoats here than fans of, say, Pushing Daisies.
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Old September 18 2009, 05:13 PM   #38
Lindley
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Re: Why is Firefly's Cancellation So Unforgiveable?

PD was a great loss as well. But I was more prepared for that one, since the writing had been on the wall for quite a while.
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Old September 18 2009, 05:18 PM   #39
Temis the Vorta
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Re: Why is Firefly's Cancellation So Unforgiveable?

Lindley wrote: View Post
PD was a great loss as well. But I was more prepared for that one, since the writing had been on the wall for quite a while.
That's true. We were lucky to get a second season at all.

This is what pisses of Firefly fans.. if the show had proper support like other shows
It got the same support as other shows - initial marketing push, then it's sink or swim time. 2/3rds of new shows die in the first season (usually very quickly), so I don't see Firefly's case as being strikingly different from average.

The shows that get big network support are the ones that take off like a rocket. Networks throw marketing money after successes, not failure, on the very valid assumption that a dollar spent on a success will yeild better return on investment than a dollar spent on a struggling show. Since they have dozens of replacement shows in development at any time, it makes no economic sense to be sentimental about any of em.

Networks are like mother snakes; they lay a clutch of eggs and slither off, secure in the knowledge that some of their offspring will survive and unconcerned about the fact that the majority will get eaten.
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Old September 18 2009, 05:26 PM   #40
SeerSGB
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Re: Why is Firefly's Cancellation So Unforgiveable?

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Hard core fans of *anything* never shut up. Browncoats don't seem any different.
It's a whole entitlement mindset: We're the fans, we pay the bills, you OWE US!

In many ways I blame 'Trek for starting this with TOS, and then feeding into it over the years with the whole "The fans saved the show!". It's infected-- yeah, I think that's a good word for it-- television fandom with a sense of being "owed" and "entitled" to a show, and by-damn-god, it better be their way or they'll be hell to pay.
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Old September 18 2009, 06:23 PM   #41
stonester1
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Re: Why is Firefly's Cancellation So Unforgiveable?

Fannish sense of entitlement, never a good thing, true. But then, neither is a "fuck the fans" attitude.
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Old September 18 2009, 07:05 PM   #42
Myasishchev
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Re: Why is Firefly's Cancellation So Unforgiveable?

Fans don't understand fiduciary duties to stockholders.

That said, I'll never forgive Fox for cancelling Andy Richter Controls the Universe, the greatest show ever made.
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Old September 18 2009, 07:45 PM   #43
Mantyclause
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Re: Why is Firefly's Cancellation So Unforgiveable?

the Dagman wrote: View Post
Deckerd wrote: View Post
the Dagman wrote: View Post

If the Browncoats would be quiet and people stop making threads about the damn thing, you'd never hear me mention it again. At least I said if it was in my power I'd give you people the show back. Anything, just to shut you up about it.
You could always, y'know, just avoid such threads. Just a suggestion.
Actually, I usually do. Only on the rare occasion will I poke my head into one of these threads. This one asked a question in the thread title I had an answer for. And I was actually agreeing it was unforgivable to cancel it. Yet, still you fans have to bust my balls because I don't like the show.

Lindley wrote: View Post
the Dagman wrote: View Post
If the Browncoats would be quiet and people stop making threads about the damn thing, you'd never hear me mention it again. At least I said if it was in my power I'd give you people the show back. Anything, just to shut you up about it.
There have been how many threads about it lately? Two in the last month that I can think of offhand, including this one? Why is this a problem?
Oh really? Just two? Try using that search feature at the top of the page and type the word "firefly" into the drop down. I count 28 threads active just within the last 24 hours that Firefly was brought up in some way. 28 threads in 24 hours. And 43 threads in the last week alone.

Like I said, you fans of the show never shut up about it.
Considering that Rojohen was the only person to explain our antipathy for Fox until you said your first "...quiet the bitching.", and the majority of the first page was people explaining why it wasn't unforgivable until you started arguing with Lindley about it, I can't help but wonder where the problem really is.
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Old September 18 2009, 08:11 PM   #44
SeerSGB
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Re: Why is Firefly's Cancellation So Unforgiveable?

stonester1 wrote: View Post
Fannish sense of entitlement, never a good thing, true. But then, neither is a "fuck the fans" attitude.
I don't know, I think sometimes you have to say "fuck the fans" and do what is right; be it for business or just in service to the story.
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Old September 18 2009, 08:23 PM   #45
stonester1
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Re: Why is Firefly's Cancellation So Unforgiveable?

TheGallifreyanSith wrote: View Post
stonester1 wrote: View Post
Fannish sense of entitlement, never a good thing, true. But then, neither is a "fuck the fans" attitude.
I don't know, I think sometimes you have to say "fuck the fans" and do what is right; be it for business or just in service to the story.
Sometimes you do. But let's face it, many of the decisions the suits make for "business" aren't in "service to the story".

Let's not make this a defense of the suits, who don't know DICK about story, yet way too often make like they do.

More often, the suits need to stand the fuck back and let the storytellers tell the story.

Same with the fans.
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