RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 137,840
Posts: 5,327,379
Members: 24,552
Currently online: 499
Newest member: mekogas

TrekToday headlines

Latest Official Starships Collection Ships
By: T'Bonz on Jul 10

Seven of Nine Bobble Head
By: T'Bonz on Jul 9

Pegg The Prankster
By: T'Bonz on Jul 9

More Trek Stars Join Unbelievable!!!!!
By: T'Bonz on Jul 8

Star Trek #35 Preview
By: T'Bonz on Jul 8

New ThinkGeek Trek Apparel
By: T'Bonz on Jul 7

Star Trek Movie Prop Auction
By: T'Bonz on Jul 7

Drexler: NX Engineering Room Construction
By: T'Bonz on Jul 7

New Trek Home Fashions
By: T'Bonz on Jul 4

Star Trek Pop-Ups Book Preview
By: T'Bonz on Jul 3


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Fandom > Fan Art

Fan Art Post your Trek fan art here, including hobby models and collectibles.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old September 16 2009, 02:16 PM   #16
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Cleopatra's Needle - Design Proposals

DEWLine wrote: View Post


Managed to incorporate some of the suggestions and afterthoughts we've been discussing, and I see I'd better do some further rethinking on a couple of additional points that have come up over the last few hours.
Okay, you're on the right track, but I think you made it a little too strung-out now. There's a lot of unnecessary excess space in the front and back. I think it would be fine at maybe 70% of its current length and the same width.

(And why do you have "Clark" listed on the design team? If you mean Margaret Clark, she had no involvement with The Buried Age.)


BolianAdmiral wrote: View Post
Regarding the Borg records... this is my problem with the episode, because it really was a massive canon violation... the Hansens would have embarked on the voyage before the encounter at System J-25. The ONLY thing I can possibly see in all of "prime" Trek lore, that would in any way support them knowing about the Borg, is that maybe Starfleet knew that there was "something" out there, known as the Borg, by what the El Aurian refugees told them, after being rescued. Other than that, I totally fail to see how these civilians could have gotten access to knowledge of the Borg. It makes no sense that Starfleet would make such information freely available to just anyone.
Why assume that Starfleet would have that kind of power over the information that's available to the general public? You don't need the approval of the US Navy to read about Somali pirates -- it's publicly available information. The Federation isn't a military dictatorship, so Starfleet isn't in control of the people's access to information.

At the time of the Hansens' expedition, the El-Aurians would've been living in the Federation for 60 years. They wouldn't have been in Starfleet prison camps or something, they would've been interacting with the general population. They could've told anyone their stories about the Borg. And since the Borg would've been such a distant, remote threat, something that destroyed a faraway world decades in the past, I don't see Starfleet classifying it as a high-level security threat. In fact, clearly Starfleet didn't learn much at all about the Borg from the El-Aurians, or the E-D would've had some information about the Borg in its databanks in "Q Who." Maybe the El-Aurians didn't tell Starfleet anything about the Borg. It had happened a long time ago, they probably wanted to forget, and as we know, they're more a race of listeners than talkers. So any information that eventually trickled out from them over decades might've been vague at best -- vague enough that Starfleet and most of the Federation didn't take it seriously, and only the crackpot Magnus Hansen paid attention and linked it with some other deep-space legends he'd come across.


Again, this whole episode was just one example of crappy writing, because it totally ignored previously established facts, and it showed... glaringly. But my thinking is that they told Starfleet of their plan, and somehow, ended up standing firm, and going ahead, even though they may have been warned by Starfleet, of the danger.
But the retcon comes from Generations, because that film had already established that Starfleet had encountered and rescued the El-Aurian refugees over 70 years before "Q Who." So "Dark Frontier" is no more guilty of retconning than Generations is.

Besides, there's no such thing as a perfectly consistent canon. Look at any long-running work of fiction and you'll see its creators reinterpreting or ignoring details from early stories in order to make later stories possible. It's the prerogative of the storyteller to reshape a fictional reality along the way. If you're writing a novel, you're bound to rethink some of the earlier stuff as you go, and you can go back and fix it before anyone reads the novel, so that it works as a coherent whole. But in series fiction like a television show, you don't have the luxury to go back and undo earlier choices that cause you problems later on. So you just have to tweak the continuity and move on.

And I don't really have a problem with Starfleet not knowing everything there is to know. The Federation is huge. It's far bigger than any civilization in human history. There's just so much information in such a vast civilization that no single institution could know all of it. So I have no problem with the idea that there could be a scientist within the Federation that came upon knowledge Starfleet remained oblivious to. Starfleet is not ubiquitous, omniscient, or infallible. It's one institution within a far, far vaster civilization.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 16 2009, 02:39 PM   #17
Csalem
Commodore
 
Csalem's Avatar
 
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Re: Cleopatra's Needle - Design Proposals

I've always explained the Hansen's knowledge through time travel. J-25 first contact with the Borg, but then in ST:FC they travel back in time, and then the Borg resuscitated in 2152, in the Enterprise episode. Therefore by the 2350s the Hansen's could have across the ENT reports in some forgotten archive and connected them to the El-Aurian reports.

I think it was Mike Sussman who suggested something similar on the commentary for the Ent episode.
__________________
Csalem
Csalem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 16 2009, 03:19 PM   #18
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Cleopatra's Needle - Design Proposals

^Right. It's possible that Starfleet did have scattered bits of rumor and information about some remote cybernetic race, but didn't have the name "Borg" to associate with them, so the E-D crew was unable to track down that information in "Q Who." After all, the name "Borg" was never used in the ENT episode.

Personally, I prefer to think that the name "Borg" was Magnus Hansen's own coinage -- because what are the odds that an alien race of cyborgs would give themselves a name based on the faux-Greek portmanteau word "cyborg"? (Although the Destiny novel trilogy offers an alternative answer for that.) In my theory, the El-Aurians didn't know the name of the race that destroyed their world, but sometime between GEN and "Q Who," Guinan came across Magnus Hansen's research papers where he coined the word "Borg," and so that's why she told Picard "They're called the Borg."
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 16 2009, 06:30 PM   #19
DEWLine
Fleet Captain
 
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Send a message via AIM to DEWLine Send a message via Yahoo to DEWLine
Re: Cleopatra's Needle - Design Proposals

The more I think about it, the more I think "carry as much as you can with you" works as a design rule. The extra "nose" length could be devoted to nav/science sensor hardware and in the aft, there's still fuel tankage to allow for. Deck two will likely need a fair chunk of space for consumables used by the crew itself.
__________________
Yours,

Dwight Williams
Illustrator/Writer
DEWLine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 16 2009, 06:40 PM   #20
BolianAuthor
Writer, Battlestar Urantia
 
Location: Torrance, California
Send a message via AIM to BolianAuthor Send a message via Windows Live Messenger to BolianAuthor
Re: Cleopatra's Needle - Design Proposals

^

Okay, well I can certainly understand all of your points, Christopher, and I do admit, they are all valid. I just personally don't see it along those lines. Yes, you are absolutely right, in that in retrospect, it was also a huge error on the part of GEN, to have kind of featured the whole El Aurian aftermath thing. But again... personally, I don't see the public having knowledge of the Borg as simple as us knowing about Somali pirates. I mean, consider that Starfleet/the UFP already know that the Borg are indeed hostile, are absolutely unstoppable, and can have destroyed an entire world. The Borg do not communicate as casually as we do, so we have no way of knowing their intent. That is a huge potential risk to Earth and the UFP, and I don't see the UFP releasing information like that, until they at least have a better idea of the Borg's intent.

I'm not saying you're wrong, and I'm not saying I'm wrong. I'm saying that we both have different ways of looking at it, and that's fine. Creative differences, between two writers. Again, I hope I did not come across as combative, as that was in no way my intent. If anything, this issue gives us stuff to think about, lol.

Peace.
BolianAuthor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 16 2009, 06:51 PM   #21
DEWLine
Fleet Captain
 
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Send a message via AIM to DEWLine Send a message via Yahoo to DEWLine
Re: Cleopatra's Needle - Design Proposals

*looks forward to seeing competing designs while he works on deck two*
__________________
Yours,

Dwight Williams
Illustrator/Writer
DEWLine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 16 2009, 07:22 PM   #22
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Cleopatra's Needle - Design Proposals

BolianAdmiral wrote: View Post
But again... personally, I don't see the public having knowledge of the Borg as simple as us knowing about Somali pirates. I mean, consider that Starfleet/the UFP already know that the Borg are indeed hostile, are absolutely unstoppable, and can have destroyed an entire world. The Borg do not communicate as casually as we do, so we have no way of knowing their intent. That is a huge potential risk to Earth and the UFP, and I don't see the UFP releasing information like that, until they at least have a better idea of the Borg's intent.
If we're talking about Magnus Hansen's expedition in the 2350s, then Starfleet may have known nothing of the kind. They knew that there was a refugee people who came along from a distant part of the galaxy. We don't know how much the El-Aurians revealed about the events that had turned them into refugees. Consider: Picard and Guinan had a relationship that was described as extremely close and stretched back over 30 years. Yet in all that time, Guinan never told Picard a single word about the Borg until they actually met them in "Q Who." And Picard never found out about her origins in any other way. That suggests that the El-Aurian refugees simply didn't tell anyone much about the events that had led them to lose their homeworld.

Also, I think you're misunderstanding how classified information works. In a free society, the government or the military only classifies information whose release would pose a threat to national security -- such as information about troop movements and weapons systems that could jeopardize military personnel or civilians if the enemy gained that information. There's no reason to classify the simple information that there's someone dangerous out there; on the contrary; concealing that information from the public would make them less safe, because they'd be unprepared, and because the smart people who might otherwise help come up with solutions wouldn't be aware of the problem. I can see a dictatorship like the Cardassians or Romulans keeping its people ignorant of the very existence of a potential threat, but that's not the way a free and ethical society -- or a smart one -- operates.

Not to mention that the Enterprise-B was carrying a boatload of reporters when it rescued the El-Aurians. Assuming the Federation has a free press, which we know it does, then there's no way the tales the El-Aurians told wouldn't have become publicly available. So they simply must not have said anything about the Borg, or anything they did say must've been so tenuous and fragmentary that Starfleet didn't register it as a serious threat. After all, these refugees had been travelling for nearly 30 years since they lost their homeworld. True, that's not as long a time for a people as long-lived as the El-Aurians as it would be for us, but it's still enough time for people's memories to fade (particularly traumatic memories) or for them to decide to move on and not dwell on the past.

Besides, we know from "Dark Frontier" that nobody took Magnus Hansen's theories of the Borg seriously. That presumably includes Starfleet. They wouldn't try to classify information they didn't even take seriously. And if they were as Orwellian in their determination to hide the existence of the Borg as you propose, then they would've thrown Hansen in jail for voicing his theories.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 16 2009, 08:00 PM   #23
BolianAuthor
Writer, Battlestar Urantia
 
Location: Torrance, California
Send a message via AIM to BolianAuthor Send a message via Windows Live Messenger to BolianAuthor
Re: Cleopatra's Needle - Design Proposals

^

Hey, fair enough, man... like I said, we have differing takes on this, and all I did initially was agree with your side of things. I don't want to detract from the topic of this thread any further. I totally respect your point of view, and just happen to see things a bit differently. No harm done.
BolianAuthor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 17 2009, 04:17 PM   #24
DEWLine
Fleet Captain
 
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Send a message via AIM to DEWLine Send a message via Yahoo to DEWLine
Re: Cleopatra's Needle - Design Proposals



Added the ladderways, and may yet reposition them depending on deck 2 factors and "between decks" stuff yet to be decided.
__________________
Yours,

Dwight Williams
Illustrator/Writer
DEWLine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 19 2009, 09:04 PM   #25
DEWLine
Fleet Captain
 
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Send a message via AIM to DEWLine Send a message via Yahoo to DEWLine
Re: Cleopatra's Needle - Design Proposals


And the beginnings of deck two are taking shape as well, now...



Click on the linked images to gander at a better-resolution version over on Flickr, if you like.
__________________
Yours,

Dwight Williams
Illustrator/Writer
DEWLine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 19 2009, 11:50 PM   #26
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Cleopatra's Needle - Design Proposals

(From the Flickr page): The forward compartment's being set aside for lab space.
The lab space is kinda tiny, isn't it? It should be the biggest single area on the ship, followed by the lounge.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 20 2009, 01:49 AM   #27
DEWLine
Fleet Captain
 
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Send a message via AIM to DEWLine Send a message via Yahoo to DEWLine
Re: Cleopatra's Needle - Design Proposals

That will be remedied. Placeholder spaces marked out for now...
__________________
Yours,

Dwight Williams
Illustrator/Writer
DEWLine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 20 2009, 09:42 AM   #28
Psion
Commodore
 
Psion's Avatar
 
Location: Lat: 40.1630936 Lon: -75.1183777
View Psion's Twitter Profile
Re: Cleopatra's Needle - Design Proposals

DEWLine wrote: View Post
*looks forward to seeing competing designs while he works on deck two*
Well, since you're being generous with your thread ...



I'm intrigued enough by DEWLine's arrangement to credit him and incorporate elements into this. I avoided interpreting the main hull as a cylinder largely to cut down on its phallic properties. The elongated teardrop atop the main hull isn't intended as an inhabited deck, but rather a location for sensors, some consumables, and the ship's "spinal" wiring.

I've made the main hull less needle shaped and used the warp nacelles to evoke the needle image largely because I didn't like the look of a stretched hull. This and the cross-section are perhaps the largest divergence from DEWLine's efforts.
__________________
Twinkies are back. I knew they couldn't stay away from me for long.
Psion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 20 2009, 03:23 PM   #29
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Cleopatra's Needle - Design Proposals

^That's an interesting take on it. The "teardrop" is a clever idea, and it would cut down on the need for storage space in DEWLine's deck plans. I think your version of the dimensions works pretty well; I still think DEWLine's version is too stretched-out.

I think I'd like to see the nacelles mounted lower, though, so they wouldn't look as Starfleety. In general, the forward silhouette should be as compact as possible. Also I wouldn't mind having the front be a little bit more pyramidal to give it an "obelisk" look fitting the name.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 20 2009, 03:30 PM   #30
DEWLine
Fleet Captain
 
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Send a message via AIM to DEWLine Send a message via Yahoo to DEWLine
Re: Cleopatra's Needle - Design Proposals

As to raw consumables storage...to each their own. It didn't seem to make sense to have the tankage areas stand out as part of the overall structure. I like the "obelisk" shape idea myself, after all, which plays into the length issue Christopher mentioned.

I'm still planning on using the nacelles as part of the landing gear arrangement.
__________________
Yours,

Dwight Williams
Illustrator/Writer
DEWLine is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 09:00 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.