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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old September 13 2009, 04:54 AM   #211
StarTrek1701
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Re: Moments that really made you cringe or disliked

davejames wrote: View Post
Certainly, after 25 long years, it should start to dawn on him that "oh yeah, Spock actually tried to HELP save my world!"
What I read in some script-leak sites is that they cut out an entire portion of Nero's backstory from the movie. It was supposed to be shown right after little Kirk's shouting of his name. It presumably went if I remember correctly: Nero being held in Rura Penthe and tortured sadistically by some interrogators. We learn through dialogue that Nero and his team has not spoken a single word in over a decade. And he isn't even screaming when he's being tortured but rather thinking back into an earlier time.

That's where we learn that Spock Prime was going to save Romulus and Nero actually helped him (much like Countdown stories) get the red matter. But the Vulcan council actually voted to not let Nero deploy the red matter but wait till Vulcan could deploy it on their own. Nero gets furious and leaves, but the star grew unexpectedly, more so than anyone thought and destroyed Romulus whilst they were in mid-evacuation. Nero's anger stems from the fact that he could have deployed the red matter way before, and an actual piece was written where the audience gets to see Romulus' sun actually get consumed by the exploding star before it finally destroys Romulus.

If they added those scenes to the movie, expanding probably by 7-8 minutes, it would have been a tighter fitted story. The flow could have been a little off, but Nero's anger could be justified far better.
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Old September 13 2009, 06:14 AM   #212
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Re: Moments that really made you cringe or disliked

Cryogenic,

The simple fact is, as you've said, that no movie, NO movie, is perfect or without flaw.

There are better films, yes. But this is essentially a popcorn movie, made to thrill and entertain, and no other Trek movie could stand up to this level of examination.

It is not an art film, so let's not treat it as one.

It's primary goal to entertain while remaining, on the whole, true to the source material.

It updated what was necessary so as not to be laughed at by the uninitiated, and it upped the pace in keeping with modern expectations, providing a level of humor and fun that has been missing from Star Trek for a while.

I have seen far more blunders in TOS and the TOS Movies.

Let the movie be what is was meant to be, and acknowledge the overwhelming success it has had in this.

Treat it fairly.
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Old September 14 2009, 04:58 AM   #213
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Re: Moments that really made you cringe or disliked

^That won't happen.
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Old September 14 2009, 12:04 PM   #214
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Re: Moments that really made you cringe or disliked

Scott Hayden wrote: View Post
One of them was i lizard type with no fur. It should freezee in minutes in this cold environment.
Well, given it's an alien creature and we have no clue what it's physiology might be there's no basis for that statement. Whales and dolphins have no fur and they can live in arctic seas...

Too Much Fun wrote: View Post
It's just that the storytelling for Nero's history/justification for his hatred of Spock was so dumb and forced. It was a huge letdown because up until both, I was completely into the movie, thoroughly enjoying it and thinking it will be perfect if they just give us a good backstory for the villain. And then they didn't and it wasn't.
Agreed, I really didn't like Nero's motivation at all; nor the Romulan "mining vessel" looking like a gigantic spidery thing with the power of the Death Star.

The promotion of Kirk (and apparently all the other cadets) made me wonder if perhaps either Starfleet was dangerously short-staffed or possibly the commissions came out of Crackerjack (tm) boxes.

Neither of those things made me "cringe" though.

Cringeworthy was having any reference to 21st century companies like Nokia and Budweiser -- especially after WWIII!
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Old September 14 2009, 04:55 PM   #215
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Re: Moments that really made you cringe or disliked

Sean Aaron wrote: View Post
Cringeworthy was having any reference to 21st century companies like Nokia and Budweiser -- especially after WWIII!
Think of it this way:

George Kirk's hobby apparently was rebuilding 20th century automobiles to "accurate" specs. The accurate in quotes is because we know he got it wrong. No 60s car would have anything like a 1990s or later style GPS system/stereo on it, but it can be written off as an honest mistake—I know quite a few people (including a close high school friend) who rebuilt cars from the 1930s to include some 1950s parts and styling.

As for the company, that would also be part of the research done. A family friend put together a vintage victorola, complete with pre-WWI brand label, etc. So one can assume that in scouring for parts for his baby, Mr. Kirk was able to find a "Nokia car stereo" to install.

As for Bud, maybe Belgium (Anheiser-Busch is owned by a Belgian company) sat the war out?
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Old September 14 2009, 05:16 PM   #216
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Re: Moments that really made you cringe or disliked

Volkswagen is a German company that existed before WW2, and it continues to exist even after the destruction that was leveled upon Germany during and up to the end of the war. A company isn't guaranteed to be destroyed just because of a war.
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Old September 14 2009, 07:14 PM   #217
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Re: Moments that really made you cringe or disliked

Star Trek's fictional society uses no money and Federation citizens don't work for their own financial wealth, like it or not. That fictional fact has become essential part of Star Trek like beaming, warp speed, dilithium crystals and phasers. It has been mentioned dozens of times on screen and is part of Roddenberry's vision of our future.

And brand names like Nokia and Budweiser don't make sense in an economy without money. Especially Nokia, because it's a technology company selling computers and mobil phones, technology that dozens of companies sell and that work the same way.

Beer on the other hand... the taste is connected to the specific beer producer. Budweiser, Heinnecken or Miller, Coke or Pepsi, they all taste differently. Hence their names will continue to exist as long as they are produced or found in the database of a replicator.

So Nokia will definately not exist in such a future. Budweiser might still be there, though.
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Old September 14 2009, 07:17 PM   #218
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Re: Moments that really made you cringe or disliked

Tom Paris admitted in VOYAGER that Earth completely stopped using conventional money/currency by the late 22nd century...sometime after the period of ENTERPRISE and the birth of the Federation. But that doesn't preclude some old firms surviving WWIII and the social renaissance following warp drive and First Contact and continuing to provide services free of charge or through a barter system of some sort.
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Old September 14 2009, 07:42 PM   #219
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Re: Moments that really made you cringe or disliked

Sean Aaron wrote: View Post

The promotion of Kirk (and apparently all the other cadets) made me wonder if perhaps either Starfleet was dangerously short-staffed or possibly the commissions came out of Crackerjack (tm) boxes.
Something Pike says while talking to freshly-beaten-up Kirk in the bar suggests a partial answer:

PIKE
I couldn't believe it when the bartender
told me who you were.

KIRK
... and who am I, Captain Pike?

PIKE
Your father's son.
(then, smiles)
For my dissertation, I was assigned the
U.S.S. Kelvin. Something I admired about
your dad... he didn't believe in no-win
scenarios.

KIRK
He sure learned his lesson.

PIKE
Depends how you define winning.
You're here, aren't you?
(off Kirk's look)
That instinct to leap without looking--
that was his nature, too. And in my
opinion it's something Starfleet has
lost. We're admirable, respectable. But
overly-disciplined.

(beat)
Those cadets you took on, they'll make
competent officers -- but you can bet
your ass they'll run home to momma the
minute they're looking down the barrel of
a Klingon phaser cannon.


KIRK
-- why are you talking to me?

etc.
(emphasis mine)

According to his dossier at the official site, Pike is Executive Officer of Starfleet's recruiting division, and it seems he's looking for people who don't fit neatly into that admirable, respectable, competent, but overly-disciplined box. So he recruits Kirk (and other less-conservative, more-inclined-to-leap-without-looking types, presumably.) One might also presume that a number of these were wiped out when the rest of the task force headed for Vulcan was reduced to scrap on arrival, leaving Starfleet with some shortages both of trained and experienced personnel and of new Academy graduates who could replace them.

Edit:

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Star Trek's fictional society uses no money and Federation citizens don't work for their own financial wealth, like it or not. That fictional fact has become essential part of Star Trek like beaming, warp speed, dilithium crystals and phasers. It has been mentioned dozens of times on screen and is part of Roddenberry's vision of our future.
But what about the credits which are mentioned a number of times in dialogue throughout TOS? To name just two examples:

DeSALLE: Maybe we can't break it, but I'll bet you credits to navy beans we can put a dent in it.
("Catspaw")

The expression is clearly derived from the similar "I'll bet you dollars to navy beans/dollars to doughnuts that __________."

How much for a tribble?

JONES: My friend, 10 credits apiece is a very reasonable price. Now you can see for yourself how much the lovely little lady appreciates the finer things.
BARMAN: One credit apiece.
("The Trouble with Tribbles")

Credits sure sound a lot like money, don't they?

And outside of the Original Series: what, exactly, do you suppose Beverly Crusher was using to pay for that bolt of cloth at Farpoint Station -- "We're Starfleet -- give it to us for free"? I suspect not. How did the Voyager crew manage to procure their supplies and materials on the various stops they made? By counterfeiting? Not very ethically Starfleet.

Starfleet may not use money for internal transactions, but you can bet that there are means such as credits, gold-pressed latinum, or what-have-you for interacting with other economies both large and small. Earth has also been shown to still have business concerns, Sandrine's Bar and Joe Sisko's restaurant among them; there must be some way of making transactions in those places. The absence of currency may have been part of Gene Roddenberry's vision, but even he wasn't consistent on that point and Star Trek as a whole certainly hasn't been.

Someone else has taken the trouble of addressing the subject of in somewhat greater detail here.
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The motto of the Corbettite Order seems to be Ite Animose... a Latin phrase that can be translated as "go courageously." Alternatively, it can be rendered as "boldly go," which bears a striking resemblance to a phrase heard during the opening credits of a certain popular television series.

Last edited by M'Sharak; September 14 2009 at 08:28 PM.
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Old September 14 2009, 07:44 PM   #220
Ghouleddie74
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Re: Moments that really made you cringe or disliked

^
That "Klingon phaser cannon" remark must have been edited out before release. It's not in the existing theatrical cut of the Kirk/Pike bar conversation. Maybe it'll be restored in the DVD this fall or qualify as an extended scene.
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Old September 14 2009, 07:46 PM   #221
JarodRussell
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Re: Moments that really made you cringe or disliked

Good thing because we all know that Klingons use disruptor cannons. That has been a given for... I don't know how long.



Only reason for Kirk's promotion is because Orci wanted him to be Captain at the end, for no logical reason. It wouldn't have made any difference on the success of this movie (yet it would have given this movie a little more credibility). They could have made Kirk Captain in the middle or beginning of the next movie.
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Old September 14 2009, 09:11 PM   #222
OneBuckFilms
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Re: Moments that really made you cringe or disliked

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Good thing because we all know that Klingons use disruptor cannons. That has been a given for... I don't know how long.



Only reason for Kirk's promotion is because Orci wanted him to be Captain at the end, for no logical reason. It wouldn't have made any difference on the success of this movie (yet it would have given this movie a little more credibility). They could have made Kirk Captain in the middle or beginning of the next movie.
It would have been detrimental to not have Kirk as the Captain at the end.

That's the emotional arc of the character, central to the story.

This move is about how a family comes together, how they become the crew of the Enterprise, and if Kirk was not the Captain at the end of the film, the crew would not have been where they needed to be for potential sequels, and the story would not have had a satisfactory ending for one of the main characters.
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Old September 14 2009, 09:20 PM   #223
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Re: Moments that really made you cringe or disliked

^ I disagree most heartily. It would have been highly satisfactory for me, at least, to have Our Crew assembled, even if Pike was still captain. Probably more satisfying than the ending we got, actually, much as I liked the movie overall. For one thing, I think Pike is a great character, a real addition to the cast. I hope we still get to see him in the next movie.

For another, seeing Kirk continue to mature over the next movie would have been very satisfying as well.

Don't get me wrong, I want Kirk to become captain (good thing, since he is). I'd like to think he earned it, though. The one we saw on TOS apparently did. It wasn't dramatically necessary at all for him to earn that rank immediately, though.

Edit: I mean, jeez, even Star Wars, which isn't exactly the most character-driven franchise on the planet, didn't make Luke a Jedi instantly.
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Old September 14 2009, 11:30 PM   #224
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Re: Moments that really made you cringe or disliked

Great thread.

number6 wrote:
If anything this thread has put a glaring spotlight on the level to which people will sink to trash and nitpick a film they've chosen to see multiple times. Anyone who has that much to say about every little thing that's "wrong" about this movie, has obviously invested a great deal of time and expense to the effort.
Maybe multiple viewings reveal how flaws were hidden by eye-candy and quick-edits?
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Old September 15 2009, 02:19 AM   #225
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Re: Moments that really made you cringe or disliked

JustKate wrote: View Post
Edit: I mean, jeez, even Star Wars, which isn't exactly the most character-driven franchise on the planet, didn't make Luke a Jedi instantly.
Agreed. If JJ wanted Kirk to be the captain at the end of the film, why the hell didn't they do a flash-forward? "Three years later" or something like that.
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