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Old September 6 2009, 04:03 AM   #31
PSGarak
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Re: Trek romances - the good, the bad, and the boring?

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
^I agree. To use homosexuality as "proof" of evil just isn't cool. (Regardless of my social-political views--and you all know them by now--still, such bashing is, quite frankly, intolerable. And I'm far from the only right-winger who feels that way....)

To use it as a characteristic (i.e. a matter of happenstance), is perfectly fine--as was the case with Intendant Kira. There, it was just an example of "she recognizes no limits for herself", or something like that.
Also, with MU Kira's attraction to the regular Kira, it came across to me as a hugely narcissistic thing far more than a gay thing. I got the sense from MU Kira that the very pinnacle of a turn on would be to have sex with herself, which was sort of how she viewed Kira, an ego extension rather than a separate person.
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Old September 6 2009, 07:35 AM   #32
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Re: Trek romances - the good, the bad, and the boring?

First of all, lets keep in mind that TNG was in the early 90's. Sex on TV was still basically limited to late night shows, certainly not Prime Time TV. Second, they did a great job of slipping in inuendo into most everything that Riker did!! Remember the episode where he and Ro got it on because no one remembered anyone else? Any of Troi's relationships were lame, but Paris/Torres was funny because it reminds me of most people that I know. Seven of Nine was crazy hot in those skin tight suits, and T'Pol in Enterprise was fully naked in at least three episodes. Star Trek is not necessarily a series for overt sexuality. Maybe it could have been addressed more, but by this point, we are all accustomed to the way it is and too much sex seems weird. IE Enterprise. Some of the attempts they made seemed uncomfortable becuase I am not used to seeing that in a Star Trek epsiode.
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Old September 6 2009, 01:10 PM   #33
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Re: Trek romances - the good, the bad, and the boring?

The best romance for me is the one and only relationsship between Janeway and Chakotay- J/C for ever!

I didn`t like the Worf/Troi romance.

Last edited by Mareika; September 6 2009 at 01:13 PM. Reason: error
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Old September 6 2009, 02:41 PM   #34
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Re: Trek romances - the good, the bad, and the boring?

Mareika wrote: View Post
The best romance for me is the one and only relationsship between Janeway and Chakotay- J/C for ever!
Fan fiction doesn't count.
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Old September 6 2009, 03:48 PM   #35
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Re: Trek romances - the good, the bad, and the boring?

Mach5 wrote: View Post
Mareika wrote: View Post
The best romance for me is the one and only relationsship between Janeway and Chakotay- J/C for ever!
Fan fiction doesn't count.
It was heavily ship-teased in the show, so it's not like the fans made it up or that it belongs just to fan fiction. The majority of fans seem to be prefer Janeway/Chakotay to Seven/Chakotay , which brings up the question, are Star Trek writers sometimes so clueless that they pick unconvincing or otherwise bad pairings over those that had more chemistry and could have worked better?
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Old September 6 2009, 05:41 PM   #36
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Re: Trek romances - the good, the bad, and the boring?

DevilEyes wrote: View Post
Mach5 wrote: View Post
Mareika wrote: View Post
The best romance for me is the one and only relationsship between Janeway and Chakotay- J/C for ever!
Fan fiction doesn't count.
It was heavily ship-teased in the show, so it's not like the fans made it up or that it belongs just to fan fiction. The majority of fans seem to be prefer Janeway/Chakotay to Seven/Chakotay , which brings up the question, are Star Trek writers sometimes so clueless that they pick unconvincing or otherwise bad pairings over those that had more chemistry and could have worked better?
What I find interesting is that in three out of five Star Trek shows a lot of fans wanted to see the captain and the first officer get together (TOS, VOY, ENT). What's with that?
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Old September 6 2009, 07:15 PM   #37
Anika Hanson
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Re: Trek romances - the good, the bad, and the boring?

The good:
Worf/Jadzia
Paris/Torres
Picard/Vash
T'pol/Trip

The bad:
Kes and nelix
Seven/Chakotay
Kira/Odo

The Boring:
Troi/Riker
Sisco/Cassidy
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Old September 6 2009, 07:58 PM   #38
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Re: Trek romances - the good, the bad, and the boring?

Mach5 wrote: View Post
Mareika wrote: View Post
The best romance for me is the one and only relationsship between Janeway and Chakotay- J/C for ever!
Fan fiction doesn't count.
Since when. Both fan fiction and pro fiction are the best trek we're getting right now. And don't throw that canon-crap at me. Want true charactor development? It's not on the screen, same with detailed plots, believeable villians and new players. The fan produced videos, while not there yet, are getting better.

Fan fiction IS star trek.
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Old September 6 2009, 09:53 PM   #39
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Re: Trek romances - the good, the bad, and the boring?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Since when. Both fan fiction and pro fiction are the best trek we're getting right now. And don't throw that canon-crap at me.
Have I just been accused of being a canonista?
Don't worry T'Girl, to me, "canon" is just a word.

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Want true charactor development? It's not on the screen, same with detailed plots, believeable villians and new players. The fan produced videos, while not there yet, are getting better.

Fan fiction IS star trek.
To those 0.05% of trekkers who actually read it.
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Old September 6 2009, 10:08 PM   #40
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Re: Trek romances - the good, the bad, and the boring?

The Bad: Riker with, well, anyone. Does he really have to try and shove his teeth through a closed mouth whenever he kisses a poor lady? Talk about pressing too hard.
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Old September 6 2009, 11:15 PM   #41
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Re: Trek romances - the good, the bad, and the boring?

Spock and Uhura in Trek XI are literally the first Trek couple that I think have a shot at not being boring/annoying/written at an obnoxiously juvenile level.
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Old September 7 2009, 01:27 AM   #42
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Re: Trek romances - the good, the bad, and the boring?

Temis the Vorta wrote: View Post
Spock and Uhura in Trek XI are literally the first Trek couple that I think have a shot at not being boring/annoying/written at an obnoxiously juvenile level.
Well, that is a bit harsh IMO, but Spock and Uhura are definitely my favorite Trek pairing. But I must say that I enjoyed their dynamic in their few scenes in TOS as well, so I was already prepared and wanting something like that to happen and felt it was "logical" I thought the AU versions wee great together, but maybe STXI should have devoted a bit more screen-time to the relationship in order to explain the background properly - as it is, many people are still confused about it and some things are not quite clear. But this is just the first installment, I hope they handle it well in the sequels.

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
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Kes / Neelix - OMG, that had to be one of the worst TV romances ever. He was old, ugly and annoying, she was young, pretty and intelligent. Who the hell came up with that pairing? FAIL!
I have to agree, but more because they just didn't seem to truly have anything in common. I think theirs was the least believable pairing of the lot and the fact it eventually fizzled out came as no surprise to me. Kes had more chemistry with the Doctor than with Neelix, IMO...
I agree. I found myself wishing for Kes to dump Neelix and have something with the Doctor instead...although, that's not saying much, I always wished Kes would finally dump Neelix, for whatever reason (and since I am still watching early season 3, it and it's still not happened, it makes me feel so good to know that she eventually will. ) That relationship was completely unbelievable, I couldn't fathom what she saw in him, and he was even more annoying in his scenes with her than he was otherwise . We were just supposed to think that she loved him because... well, because we were told so, although I couldn't understand for the life of me why. She and The Doctor had a nice relationship - I am not saying that it had to be anything more than friendship, but if they wanted Kes to have a romance, it would have made much more sense than Neelix... (although that's not saying much, anything else would have been preferable to Kes/Neelix ).

Another horrible one was Scotty/Uhura - it was introduced out of the blue, without any basis in anything that went before, was never developed or explained, and consisted of a couple of very weird scenes, and went nowhere. It seemed that someone came up with it only in order to give the two characters something to do in the movie.

As I said, I never liked the 'disposable love interest of the week' routine, which made every romance in TOS ultimately predictable. Some of them made good episodic stories, though - like Kirk and Edith Keeler. However, most other Kirk's romances were either boring or far-fetched: Kirk and Rayna the android in "Requiem for Metuselah" was very unconvincing, and I had many problems with his relationship with Miramanee in "The Paradise Syndrome". Spock's brief romances in "This Side of Paradise" and "All Our Yesterdays" were very moving, but overall, none of the women he was paired up with in TOS was particularly interesting, except maybe the Romulan Commander from "The Enterprise Incident" (although I had some problems with the story, it has to be said that their scenes were one of the few Trek moments that I consider genuinely erotic).

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
For me, the most boring was Picard and Crusher. It started off fine--even cute once or twice--but they dragged that out so ridiculously long and then dropped it altogether once the TV series ended (fortunately, the post-Nemesis novels picked it back up and didn't waste any time moving them logically forward)...
I'm not a big shipper of either Picard/Crusher or Riker/Troi, but both those pairings were good and made sense, apart from one thing: being dragged out ridiculously long. It felt like the writers just felt they needed to come up with reasons to keep them from getting together during the series' run, because they would not know how to handle a romance between the main characters on a day-to-day basis. However, S7 episode "Attached" changed my mind somewhat, as it was a very good, very touching examination of the Picard/Crusher relationship and the reasons they did not act out on their feelings. But, after picking it up in the series finale, it was weird and disappointing that the writers didn't follow it up at all in the movies ("continuity is for sissies"? ), so it's good to know that the novels at least tried to remedy this. (I haven't read any of the TNG novels.)

(I also think that the woman in "Lessons" made the other most believable love interest for Picard - sorry, I never really bought Vash/Picard - and I think it's not coincidental that she was similar to Crusher - when she appeared, I thought they picked an actress who looked like a dark-haired Gates McFadden.)

Same thing with Riker/Troi - dragged out ridiculously, but "Second Chances" dealt with their relationship in a good way, in a sort of bizarre love triangle with Tom Riker, who was basically what Riker used to be years ago.

It seems that opinions differ on Riker/Troi and Worf/Troi. I prefer Riker/Troi and never found the Worf/Troi romance that convincing, even though they were good as friends. Worf's romance that I liked best was with K'Ehleyr. Part of the reason is that she is one of my favorite females in Trek, ever, but also, Worf - generally not one of my favorite characters - is always at his most interesting when confronted with people who challenge him and his views. For the same reason, I also like Worf/Jadzia, which comes as close second to Worf/K'Ehleyr. K'Ehleyr and Jadzia were both strong women - who had both something very Klingon and something veru non-Klingon about them - who loved freedom, challenged Worf, and could drive him crazy because he felt he wasn't able to control them. (There was never any of that with Troi - so their relationship just was not exciting and lacked passion.) Worf/K'Ehleyr was more intense (and it was also probably the only time in Trek when Klingon mating ritual did not look silly), while Worf/Jadzia was more light-hearted, fun and stabile. Their differences made them fun to watch, but I don't see why some people think that Jadzia didn't respect Worf's values - Jadzia herself liked Klingon ways (she was far more accepting of them than K'Ehleyr, who rebelled against them), she was just not as narrow-minded as Worf.

Sisko and Kassidy was all right. DS9 showed some maturity by allowing the captain to have a regular long-term relationship, which seemed unimaginable for Kirk or Picard. It wasn't something that made me incredibly excited, but it made sense, was convincing and well done. I also found their goodbye scene quite touching.

I didn't know Kira/Odo was so widely hated. I do agree that there were plausibility issues, as there always are when one person has an unrequited love for the other and the other sees them just as a friend for years, even after learning of their feelings - and then suddenly changes their mind, so the couple could conveniently be brought together. I agree that the way they got them together in "His Way" was not completely convincing. But I still liked the relationship, because they were both interesting characters who had a deep connection for a long time, but at the same time it was the most unusual interspecies pairing in Star Trek: most of the other interspecies relationships were between members of humanoid species, who only differed from each other by a few bumps or scales, or cultural and religious differences. Changelings, however, are truly 'alien' in many ways and fundamentally different from humanoids, which made for an interesting exploration of whether love can overcome real differences. While "His Way" was not all that convincing, I thought that Kira/Odo was well developed afterwards, because the show faced the issues rather than trying to pretend they did not exist, and in the end did not make them live happily ever after. I especially liked "Chimera" and their goodbye in "What You Leave Behind".

And, you know, Kira/Odo might not have been perfect, but it was infinitely preferable to the alternative of Kira/Shakaar (or another Shakaar). That was like the very definition of dull, and it did not have anything to contribute to Kira's development as a character. Neither did Odo's earlier long pining over Kira: that was great for the character of Odo, but it had nothing to say about Kira, she was just an object of his unrequited love.

Too Much Fun wrote: View Post
I liked O'Brien and Keiko for what a realistic marriage with ups and downs it was, but didn't buy any of Kira's relationships with the Vedeks (I still can't tell them apart because they were both so bland to me). Those were about little more than lust, as far as I'm concerned.
With the Vedeks? Was there some secret Kira/Winn hookup I was unaware of? Kira was involved with just one Vedek, Bareil; and with Mirror Bareil, who was not a Vedek, but a thief and conman. You're probably referring to Shakaar, who had nothing to do with religion - he was the former Resistance leader (leader of Kira's cell) and later the Prime Minister of Bajor. Neither of the relationships was too exciting, but I certainly preferred Bareil to Shakaar. But I don't see why you'd think they were about 'lust'. She had a lot in common with both men and probably admired them, Shakaar had been a friend of hers for a long time, and it's not like it ever looked like one of those relationships where they were going to rip their clothes off because they couldn't keep their hands off each other. Which all goes back to it being dull, I guess. Kira/Bareil was much better though, for the following reasons: 1) It was still quite early in the series and it was the first time we saw Kira become romantically interested in anyone - up to that point, she was only a fighter, not a lover; it was the first time we saw her relax and start to heal, 2) she really seemed to love him, and 3) it ended early and tragically. If it had continued, it would've probably become quite dull, but it never really had the time to - first there was the angst over whether he had been a traitor, combined with Winn's machinations and the entire Kai election business ("The Collaborator") and then he died tragically in "Life Support".

Kira/Shakaar, on the other hand, was just a plot device to make Odo suffer. The show was never really invested in the relationship, it was never developed, mostly happened off-screen, and we never even saw it from Kira's POV, just from Odo's. It was as if Kira had become a supporting character in a love triangle that was all about Odo. Shakaar was an obvious and safe choice (Bajoran, long time friend, they had fought together in the Resistance) but he and Kira had no chemistry, and it was just a generic, dull relationship that the writers seemed to throw there before they figure out what they really wanted to do with Kira's love life. It wasn't a surprise that it eventually fizzled out with a whimper, instead of a bang, and they went back to being friends. (And all that, off-screen.)

(On a related note - I find it fascinating that Kira/Dukat was apparently seriously considered at some point, considering how completely outrageous it would have been for a Star Trek show, even one that was 'darker' and 'grittier'. It is really a testament to the chemistry of the actors/characters, and quite telling of the relative lack of chemistry of some of the more acceptable pairings on the show.)

Ezri/Bashir were well-matched - in the way that Jadzia and Bashir never were (it's good that the show never got those two together, it really wouldn't have been believable to have Jadzia change her feelings about him, or lack thereof). The only problem was that there was just 1 season to develop them, and was obvious that the writers were rushing to get them together, so they could wrap it all up. It was as if they felt it was high time to give Bashir some happiness, after had been torturing him with bad luck in love for too long. At first his ineptitude with women was funny, but as Bashir changed as a character, by season 7 his romantic disappointments had become really sad (most notably in "Chrysalis" - BTW, I don't know why people hate that episode). That made it a bit predictable that they'd get him with Ezri so at least someone would have a happy ending.

Maybe I need to re-watch the episodes, but I have to say that I never noticed Keiko's alleged abusiveness to Miles.

The writers really dropped the ball with Garak/Bashir - they had the opportunity to portray a bisexual character who would not have been defined by his sexuality, in a way that would not have seemed forced and contrived. I know they said they never intended for Garak to be bisexual or gay, but the actor played him as bisexual and interested in Bashir - what was the problem with picking up on that? The writers apparently also never originally intended for Odo to be in love with Kira - it was only incorporated in the show because of the way Rene Auberjonois was playing it.

(Yes, Mirror Garak was hinted at being bi - but that does not count, since it's the MU...)

PSGarak wrote: View Post
Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
^I agree. To use homosexuality as "proof" of evil just isn't cool. (Regardless of my social-political views--and you all know them by now--still, such bashing is, quite frankly, intolerable. And I'm far from the only right-winger who feels that way....)

To use it as a characteristic (i.e. a matter of happenstance), is perfectly fine--as was the case with Intendant Kira. There, it was just an example of "she recognizes no limits for herself", or something like that.
Also, with MU Kira's attraction to the regular Kira, it came across to me as a hugely narcissistic thing far more than a gay thing. I got the sense from MU Kira that the very pinnacle of a turn on would be to have sex with herself, which was sort of how she viewed Kira, an ego extension rather than a separate person.
Nana Visitor said after "Crossover" that she didn't think of The Intendant as bisexual, and that her crush on PU Kira was a result of her total narcissism. But the subsequent MU episodes dropped the ball on that by having The Intendant sleep with women like Mirror Ezri and making Mirror Ezri and Mirror Leeta lesbian. So all of a sudden you have all those good heterosexual people, and their evil counterparts who are bi or gay. Not that the writers ever intended it to be understood that way. They just wanted to titillate the viewers with some girl on girl action, and they weren't really thinking.
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Old September 7 2009, 02:41 AM   #43
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Re: Trek romances - the good, the bad, and the boring?

Ezri/Bashir were well-matched - in the way that Jadzia and Bashir never were (it's good that the show never got those two together, it really wouldn't have been believable to have Jadzia change her feelings about him, or lack thereof).
Exactly--which is why I never really got Ezri's line, "If Worf hadn't come along, it would've been you." My best guess is, she was reading too much into his feelings for Jadzia, or something. Of course, he looks upset at this line....

The only problem was that there was just 1 season to develop them, and was obvious that the writers were rushing to get them together, so they could wrap it all up.
Yeah. I wish we could've seen more of them together (other than the books), but... "There just wasn't enough time, Michael...not enough time...."
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Old September 7 2009, 06:50 AM   #44
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Re: Trek romances - the good, the bad, and the boring?

Yeah, like I said all of Kira's men were just so bland to me...couldn't remember any of their names and positions and didn't care. And I forgot, I loved the Crusher and Picard thing. Call me a 'shipper' if you wish, but I was just bummed out that they never 'pulled the trigger' on that and followed up on it in the movies like they did with Riker and Troi.

On the other hand, it was disappointing how little Insurrection and Nemesis contributed to that romance's story by giving it precious few memorable moments/developments. "Attached" was amazing. Set things up wonderfully and they never followed up on it (I don't count the alternate reality tease of "All Good Things").
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Old September 7 2009, 08:44 AM   #45
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Re: Trek romances - the good, the bad, and the boring?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Mach5 wrote: View Post
Mareika wrote: View Post
The best romance for me is the one and only relationsship between Janeway and Chakotay- J/C for ever!
Fan fiction doesn't count.
Since when. Both fan fiction and pro fiction are the best trek we're getting right now. And don't throw that canon-crap at me. Want true charactor development? It's not on the screen, same with detailed plots, believeable villians and new players. The fan produced videos, while not there yet, are getting better.

Fan fiction IS star trek.
I have long had an aversion to fanfiction in general, not just Trek, due to the amount of bad fanfiction, Porn Without Plot, random pairings and general nonsense. But occasionally I've read some really quality stuff, and recently I've found that there is more good fanfiction out there than I thought, with faithful characterization and believable plots. Some of it is better than many of the actual episodes (while there are some episodes and parts of, or entire movies, that feel like bad fanfiction). I usually went by descriptions, avoiding stupid premises, and I've rarely been wrong, but it's easier when you can go by recommendations, follow certain authors and use forums like this one to find the good stuff. The thing that put me off the fanfiction world for so long were, in particular, the ridiculous pairings, particularly (but not limited to) slash. There are some things that make sense, more or less, if these "ships" were featured in or hinted at in the show, or could perhaps be construed that way, whether you agree with it or not - and then there's completely random nonsense, the kind of thing that makes you go "WTF?" - you know, characters that barely or never had scenes together, things like that. For so many people, fanfiction is just a means to write porn about people they find hot.

But since I'm stilla relative novice who has only just scrapped the surface of the fanfic world, could someone more versed in it tell me what are, from what they know, the most popular fanfic pairings for every Trek series (apart from Kirk/Spock slash, everyone knows about that)?
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