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Old September 1 2009, 06:10 PM   #2476
kimc
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
Endgame
0 stars for "Endgame". Works for me!
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Old September 1 2009, 07:59 PM   #2477
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Time has actually tempered my view on Endgame--much in the same way it did with the series itself. Once your initial expectations are dashed and you can go back and readjust your expectations accordingly knowing exactly what you are getting going in, it comes across less as a lacklustre series finale and more of an entertaining two hour action telefilm.

One of the biggest disappointments about the sendoff was the way it failed to take advantage of the earlier set-up sprinkled throughout the show. Instead of masterfully weaving together numerous threads the way DS9 did with the Final Chapter it saved everything for these last two hours and created new plot elements when it really wasn't necessary.

Did they bother to bring back in Unimatrix Zero? No. Did they bring back Sispiria? No. Did they have the Pathfinder Project play a role in returning? No. Rather they created all new standalone elements which is disappointing knowing there would be no payoff from what came before. Barclay was wasted. Admiral Paris was wasted.

Also Trek series have this odd need to create a romance in the final season. TNG had Worf/Troi, DS9 had Ezri/Julian and here we get Chakotay/Seven. C/7 was the worst(none of them were that necessary or compelling compared to say Scully and Mulder). These two had very little in the way of significant interaction in four years. Not to mention Chakotay was an uninteresting player and the romance was an abrupt late-in-the-game idea that it simply didn't work.

And after seven years on waiting for the Doc to receive a name all we get is Joe. I see what the writers were going for but it didn't work. And to take the name of his wife's father is bizarre.

This really was the final nail in the Borg with the Queen actually arguing with the Collective(I thought they were one mind) and the idea that the Borg hadn't assimilated Voyager for the last four years because she didn't want to upset Seven. Really, on one hand you have to appreciate Biller trying to at least provide a reason but this wasn't that inventive of one. What is so special about Seven? She is no different than any other drone.

I was hoping they would destroy them once and for all. Unfortunately they clearly couldn't bare the thought of not having the Borg still out there to bring in when the ratings demanded it. Instead we got an ambiguous bit of wiggle room for a possible return.

It was nice to see Alice Krige return as the Queen. I always found her Queen to be such a jarring contrast to what the Borg are suppose to be but there is no denying that Krige's performance--the way she slinks, her delivery--is intriguing to watch despite it lacking a sense that she is Borg.

Kate Mulgrew gave a great performance as Admiral Janeway.

The time travel was disappointing. I don't mind its use as long as it is employed in an interesting fashion. I was also disappointed with the lack of more satisfying character arc resolutions like we had on DS9 although part of the problem was due to the fact that most of the characters had no arc to begin with so I could see how trying to decide where to leave them might have proven a most difficult task. And no homecoming? no resolution for Icheb or good bye? no interaction between Paris and his dad? no maquis fallout? no adjusting to life after returning?

Even with all the complaints I still kinda enjoy it--partly because it is semi-entertaining, partly because of the nostalgia I feel for the show even moreso after the pretty empty new feature film. And it did have some occasional nice character moments like the one between Admiral Janeway and Tuvok. But you could pretty much tell the writers' hearts just weren't in it and were ready to move on to other things like ENTERPRISE.
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Old September 1 2009, 08:51 PM   #2478
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

ENDGAME (***)
I give it three stars. Was it a top notch send off? Nope. But it was pretty entertaining.

Positives: The Borg, the future glimpses of the crew, Admiral Janeway and the Queen, good SFX
Negatives: the forced C/7 romance, mucking with the timeline, God mode Voyager, no Suspiria, they got home

A really good finale would have tied back into Suspiria and the Caretaker. I never thought we had seen the last of her and it would have been cool to finally get some back story as to what this race is and their purpose in the galaxy. Kes could have returned, maybe with a warning to the VOY crew about Suspiria and some evil thing she is doing to another race like the Ocampa who need help. VOY attempts to help, Suspiria beats the hell out of them, maybe cripples Voyager forcing them to land on a planet and settle down for a time while devising a plan to get rid of her. Kes is there helping. In the end we get a Kes vs Suspiria smackdown. Kes wins and is able to send the crippled Voyager home. Then we get the reunions that everybody seems to have wanted etc etc. THE END
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Old September 1 2009, 09:12 PM   #2479
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I neglected to realise that not everybody here watched BSG, and fewer still read Jammer's reviews, and only a small number of that minority remember his April Fools Day joke about the BSG finale. I should probably stop copying the guy.

Suffice it to say that is not my full review, I haven't even watched Endgame yet.
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Old September 1 2009, 10:04 PM   #2480
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Classic Godben. You never know what he's upto...or do you?
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Old September 2 2009, 01:42 AM   #2481
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
I neglected to realise that not everybody here watched BSG, and fewer still read Jammer's reviews, and only a small number of that minority remember his April Fools Day joke about the BSG finale. I should probably stop copying the guy.

Suffice it to say that is not my full review, I haven't even watched Endgame yet.
Ooo, Ooo, I got the joke.

For what it is worth, Voyager and BSG both had controversial final episodes, but they were controversial for entirely different reasons.

Voyager's finale was mediocre -- but it was mediocre in the same way that the whole show was sometimes mediocre. We've been through it all before -- too easy, no hard choices, little to no use of continuity, blah, blah, blah. Would that the writers had been able to rise above some of that for their final effort, but alas instead we got another "Dark Frontier" -- kind of neat, and actually pretty re-watchable for its awesome production -- but there's no "there" there.

BSG's finale was, well, a topic for another board, but it was controversial in a way that no other episode in the show's run was controversial...
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Old September 2 2009, 01:44 AM   #2482
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
I neglected to realise that not everybody here watched BSG, and fewer still read Jammer's reviews, and only a small number of that minority remember his April Fools Day joke about the BSG finale. I should probably stop copying the guy.
I recognized it. You're a horrible person.

You should also know that I'm not merely a beloved poster on this board, but also Jamahl Epsicokhan's lawyer. You'll be hearing from me shortly.
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Old September 2 2009, 03:48 AM   #2483
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

My name is Godfrey Steven Benn, I live in Dublin, and my lawyer's name is Dermot Ahern.


I didn't intend to make such a big deal about Endgame, I thought I would say that my complaints about the episode are the same as those made by everybody else ever since the episode aired and I had nothing new to bring to the conversation. But then everybody started piling on expectations so I decided I had better try and give you all a show. Here we go:


Endgame (*½)

When I was new to this board I made a criticism about the title of this episode, I said that "Endgame" was a lazy title and all the other Trek finales had much more poetic names. It was pointed out to me then that the endgame refers to the final moves in a game of chess as your grand strategy reaches its climax and your pieces prepare to take the rival king, and as such it was a fitting title for this episode. Well... no. One of the most famous rules in chess is that once you take your finger off a piece you can't move it back again, you make your move and you have to live with the consequences. When you find yourself losing the game you shouldn't get upset and demand to reset the board so you can take that move again, that's cheating. You also can't replace all your pieces with queens in order to assure victory, where's the fun in that?

Issue number 1: Time travel

I can see what they were going for, an All Good Things style look into the future of these characters. But the very nature of this plot means that this is not the future of these characters, things are likely to turn out very different now that Voyager returned home 16 years early. And the way that this episode decides to use time travel as the means of getting Voyager home stops me from routing for that cause. You can't change history just because you want to, you're not allowed to play at being a god, so I don't want this plan to succeed, I wanted this plan to fail as soon as I heard it.

The plan also fails to hold up to even moderate scrutiny. If I am to accept that you should be allowed to alter history, and that Janeway has a device that seems to allow her to go anywhere at any time, why should I support a plan that will save 22 lives? Why doesn't she go back prior to Wolf 359 and destroy the Borg cube before it has the chance to assimilate Picard? Why doesn't she go back and save 7 million people during the Xindi attack on Earth? Why doesn't she save hundreds of millions of lives by preventing WW3? When you think about the episode like this it adds a selfish element to a plan I already find to be grossly immoral.

But why doesn't Janeway go back to the events of Caretaker, use the array to send Voyager home while she stays behind in her shuttle to destroy the array? What about the events of False Profits? She could have shown up in time to prevent the Ferengi screwing up Voyager's attempt to get home through that wormhole. Why not travel back to the events of Timeless and figure out a way of making the slipstream conduit stable? Or steal a few Borg transwarp coils and give them to Voyager after the events of Dark Frontier.

Basically, I want to know why Janeway doesn't care about Lt Carey.

JANEWAY: People who weren't as lucky as you and me. You said you and the Doctor wanted to keep things in the family, but our family's not complete anymore, is it?
Poor Lt Carey, he's not a part of the family.

JANEWAY: For the sake of argument, let's say I believe everything you're telling me. The future you come from sounds pretty good. Voyager's home, I'm an Admiral, there are ways to defend against the Borg. My ready room even gets preserved for posterity.
ADMIRAL: So, why would you want to tamper with such a rosy timeline? To answer that I'd have to tell you more than you want to know, but suffice it to say, if you don't do what I'm suggesting it's going to take you another sixteen years to get this ship home, and there are going to be casualties along the way.
As opposed to the casualties which happened before now, such as, oh.... Lt Carey.

ADMIRAL: Unfortunately, our favourite cup took a bit of a beating along the way. It was damaged during a battle with the Fen Domar.
JANEWAY: Who?
ADMIRAL: You'll run into them in a few years.
Janeway's cup is more important than Lt Carey.


Issue number 2: The Borg

The Borg are a popular species and they bring in good ratings, but this is the finale of the show, there's no need to fall back on them here. As others have said, why didn't they try to bring the show full-circle by bringing back Kes and Susperia? TNG began and ended with Q's trial of humanity while DS9 began and ended with Sisko's Prophet arc. Voyager began with the Caretaker and a good moral dilemma, it ends with the Borg and time-travel with some lip-service to a moral dilemma.

I'm tired of The Borg, I'm tired of the Borg queen, I would have much preferred an ending which tried to mirror the beginning of the show somehow. The Borg aren't even used particularly well here, they're just a standard threat that stands in Voyager's way.

QUEEN: You've always been my favourite, Seven. In spite of their obvious imperfections. I know how much you care for the Voyager crew, so I've left them alone.
You could have sent a cube or 13 to assimilate Voyager and take Seven back. You're not a very smart queen, are you?

JANEWAY: Mister Paris, attack pattern alpha one. Target the lead cube and fire transphasic torpedoes.
Noooo! There's 100,000 people aboad that cube! You blew them up, you monster!

JANEWAY: What is it?
ADMIRAL: The road home.
SEVEN: It's more than that. It's a transwarp hub.
JANEWAY: You once told me there were only six of them in the galaxy.
SEVEN: That's correct.
Seven knows about transwarp hubs, she knows they're vitally important, she knows there's only six of them... but she had to take a good look at one of them before she could figure out what it is? She couldn't have taken a guess as soon as she realised there were over 40 Borg ships in the nebula?

ADMIRAL PARIS: What the hell is it?
BARCLAY: A transwarp aperture. It's less than a light year from Earth.
I don't think I need to point out why this is stupid.


Issue number 3: The cake wasn't a lie

JANEWAY: There's got to be a way to have our cake and eat it too.
ADMIRAL: We can't destroy the hub and get Voyager home.
JANEWAY: Are you absolutely sure about that?
ADMIRAL: There might be a way.
Great, now the episode completely undermines the moral dilemma they were trying to create, it is like Night all over again. For the last 20 minutes there has been option a) destroy the hub and stay in the DQ, and option b) go home while leaving the hub alone. But now there's a magical option c) which contains the best parts of options a and b but they also get to destroy the Borg unicomplex for MASSIVE DAMAGE! Where's the moral dilemma here?

Add to this the fact that Voyager last attempt to inflict damage on the Borg (Unimatrix Zero) didn't seem to do anything, so why should I give a damn about this hub when it will probably end up the same way?


Issue number 4: No homecoming

I, for one, would have loved to have seen Voyager's triumphant return home, and to see the crew's emotional reunions with their families. But there was not time for that, they blew up the Borg sphere and hey set a course for Earth. The End.

What did the Klingon sub-plot achieve apart from filling time? That time would have been far better utilised by giving this show a proper ending rather than cutting to black in the middle of the story. (Okay, so The Sopranos did that in their finale, but at least they were blatant about it and added a lot of symbolism into the final episode so that the audience could make up their own mind.) Here it feels like the writers couldn't be bothered to write a proper ending for the characters so they just ended it. Say what you will about the BSG finale, but they had about 40 minutes of screen-time after the big action finale to say goodbye to the characters, and while I've seen some people complaining about that I think that was time excellently spent.


Issue number 5: Chakotay/Seven

They still have no chemistry that I can see, and watching Chakotay pleading with Seven to not give up on their relationship is awkward. I can't buy into the notion that these two are going to fall madly in love with one another and the actors don't seem to believe it either. As the for piano music which kicked in whenever they had a romantic moment, it was laughably bad. How did the music for this episode win an emmy with the cheesy music that sounds like it should come from a bad sitcom from the 80s?

CHAKOTAY: Seven, any relationship involves risk and nobody can guarantee what's going to happen tomorrow, not even an Admiral from the future.
No Chuckles, I'm pretty sure that somebody from the future can tell you what's going to happen in the future.


Various other issues

BARCLAY: And when it comes to your performance in this class, my expectations are going to be no different than the Borg Queen herself: Perfection.
EVERYONE: *laugh*
Unfunny.

JANEWAY: As they say in the Temporal Mechanics Department, there's no time like the present.
EVERYONE: *laugh*
Unfunny.

CADET: When you informed the Queen that you were going to liberate thousands of her drones, could you describe the look on her face?
EVERYONE: *laugh*
Awkward and unfunny.

KIM: If they can't detect us, we should go back.
SEVEN: I wouldn't recommend it. My analysis of the tritanium signature suggests there were at least forty seven Borg vessels inside the nebula.
KIM: We can't just give up on those wormholes.
47 Borg vessels, you numpty!

KIM: I think it's safe to say that no one on this crew has been more obsessed with getting home than I have but. when I think about everything we've been through together, maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey. If that journey takes a little longer so we can do something we all believe in, I can't think of anyplace I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
When I was in my early twenties, on a trip to East Africa, I saw a gazelle giving birth...

QUEEN: Captain Janeway is about to die. If she has no future, you will never exist and nothing that you've done here today will happen.
If Captain Janeway gets to the AQ then Admiral Janeway wont exist to travel back in time and none of this will have happened anyway. The plot makes no sense.


The good

Even if the plot is stupid, it is well-executed. Very rarely did I get bored while watching it, and in the final battle things did get blowed up really, really good. So I'll give a point each to the production staff and the special effects guys for making the show look so good. I also liked the Tom/B'Elanna stuff in this episode, it highlighted how the two of them have grown as people over the seven years. It wasn't stellar, but it worked well enough for me.


I have to admit, there were times when I thought I would never see this day, particularly during season 3, but I have finally reached the end of Voyager. I had seen most of the episodes before (I missed two or three from the early seasons) but I hadn't seen the show in its correct order, so watching it properly has given me a new perspective. Before I start Enterprise I am going to do two more posts about Voyager; my regular season review and a final post explaining my opinions on the show as a whole. Hopefully those will be done by the end of the week and this thread can finally be allowed to fall off the Voyager forum and into internet oblivion where it belongs.
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Old September 2 2009, 09:03 AM   #2484
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
My name is Godfrey Steven Benn, I live in Dublin, and my lawyer's name is Dermot Ahern.
Dublin. The truth at last.

I didn't intend to make such a big deal about Endgame, I thought I would say that my complaints about the episode are the same as those made by everybody else ever since the episode aired and I had nothing new to bring to the conversation. But then everybody started piling on expectations so I decided I had better try and give you all a show. Here we go:
When you have the authority, you have the responsibility. Much like Sir Arthur Conan Doyle and Sherlock Holmes. Oops...did I just compare you to a literary genius? Silly me.

Endgame (*½)

When I was new to this board I made a criticism about the title of this episode, I said that "Endgame" was a lazy title and all the other Trek finales had much more poetic names. It was pointed out to me then that the endgame refers to the final moves in a game of chess as your grand strategy reaches its climax and your pieces prepare to take the rival king, and as such it was a fitting title for this episode. Well... no. One of the most famous rules in chess is that once you take your finger off a piece you can't move it back again, you make your move and you have to live with the consequences. When you find yourself losing the game you shouldn't get upset and demand to reset the board so you can take that move again, that's cheating. You also can't replace all your pieces with queens in order to assure victory, where's the fun in that?
That's almost a succinct review of the whole show itself.


Issue number 1: Time travel

I can see what they were going for, an All Good Things style look into the future of these characters. But the very nature of this plot means that this is not the future of these characters, things are likely to turn out very different now that Voyager returned home 16 years early. And the way that this episode decides to use time travel as the means of getting Voyager home stops me from routing for that cause. You can't change history just because you want to, you're not allowed to play at being a god, so I don't want this plan to succeed, I wanted this plan to fail as soon as I heard it.
Little did the "Trek fandom" realize that long before a little bird called Abrams came along, the "timeline" had already been drastically altered at least once onscreen.

The plan also fails to hold up to even moderate scrutiny. If I am to accept that you should be allowed to alter history, and that Janeway has a device that seems to allow her to go anywhere at any time, why should I support a plan that will save 22 lives? Why doesn't she go back prior to Wolf 359 and destroy the Borg cube before it has the chance to assimilate Picard? Why doesn't she go back and save 7 million people during the Xindi attack on Earth? Why doesn't she save hundreds of millions of lives by preventing WW3? When you think about the episode like this it adds a selfish element to a plan I already find to be grossly immoral.

But why doesn't Janeway go back to the events of Caretaker, use the array to send Voyager home while she stays behind in her shuttle to destroy the array? What about the events of False Profits? She could have shown up in time to prevent the Ferengi screwing up Voyager's attempt to get home through that wormhole. Why not travel back to the events of Timeless and figure out a way of making the slipstream conduit stable? Or steal a few Borg transwarp coils and give them to Voyager after the events of Dark Frontier.

Basically, I want to know why Janeway doesn't care about Lt Carey.
Huh? Lt. who? Carey? He isn't part of the "family". He is therefore expendable. Don't look at me like that. I'm just following Janeway's logic as you can see below.

JANEWAY: People who weren't as lucky as you and me. You said you and the Doctor wanted to keep things in the family, but our family's not complete anymore, is it?
Poor Lt Carey, he's not a part of the family.

JANEWAY: For the sake of argument, let's say I believe everything you're telling me. The future you come from sounds pretty good. Voyager's home, I'm an Admiral, there are ways to defend against the Borg. My ready room even gets preserved for posterity.
ADMIRAL: So, why would you want to tamper with such a rosy timeline? To answer that I'd have to tell you more than you want to know, but suffice it to say, if you don't do what I'm suggesting it's going to take you another sixteen years to get this ship home, and there are going to be casualties along the way.
As opposed to the casualties which happened before now, such as, oh.... Lt Carey.

Janeway's cup is more important than Lt Carey.
Amen.


Issue number 4: No homecoming

I, for one, would have loved to have seen Voyager's triumphant return home, and to see the crew's emotional reunions with their families. But there was not time for that, they blew up the Borg sphere and hey set a course for Earth. The End.

What did the Klingon sub-plot achieve apart from filling time? That time would have been far better utilised by giving this show a proper ending rather than cutting to black in the middle of the story. (Okay, so The Sopranos did that in their finale, but at least they were blatant about it and added a lot of symbolism into the final episode so that the audience could make up their own mind.) Here it feels like the writers couldn't be bothered to write a proper ending for the characters so they just ended it. Say what you will about the BSG finale, but they had about 40 minutes of screen-time after the big action finale to say goodbye to the characters, and while I've seen some people complaining about that I think that was time excellently spent.
The whole episode (or at least part of it) took place in the holodeck. A Mr. Kim's Day Out classique adventure, not for the faint-hearted.

Issue number 5: Chakotay/Seven

They still have no chemistry that I can see, and watching Chakotay pleading with Seven to not give up on their relationship is awkward. I can't buy into the notion that these two are going to fall madly in love with one another and the actors don't seem to believe it either. As the for piano music which kicked in whenever they had a romantic moment, it was laughably bad. How did the music for this episode win an emmy with the cheesy music that sounds like it should come from a bad sitcom from the 80s?
You mean the same way Ensign Harry Kim won a "Best People of the Year" award from some magazine during the show's run that basically saved his ass from being fired off of the show?

No Chuckles, I'm pretty sure that somebody from the future can tell you what's going to happen in the future.
Chuckles can't tell future from past from present.


QUEEN: Captain Janeway is about to die. If she has no future, you will never exist and nothing that you've done here today will happen.
If Captain Janeway gets to the AQ then Admiral Janeway wont exist to travel back in time and none of this will have happened anyway. The plot makes no sense.
Even if it did make sense, this review would still get 0 stars.

The good

Even if the plot is stupid, it is well-executed. Very rarely did I get bored while watching it, and in the final battle things did get blowed up really, really good. So I'll give a point each to the production staff and the special effects guys for making the show look so good. I also liked the Tom/B'Elanna stuff in this episode, it highlighted how the two of them have grown as people over the seven years. It wasn't stellar, but it worked well enough for me.


I have to admit, there were times when I thought I would never see this day, particularly during season 3, but I have finally reached the end of Voyager. I had seen most of the episodes before (I missed two or three from the early seasons) but I hadn't seen the show in its correct order, so watching it properly has given me a new perspective. Before I start Enterprise I am going to do two more posts about Voyager; my regular season review and a final post explaining my opinions on the show as a whole. Hopefully those will be done by the end of the week and this thread can finally be allowed to fall off the Voyager forum and into internet oblivion where it belongs.
Time for the season review. Swell! Time for the final post on the whole show. Fantabulous! Time for Enterprise to be slaughtered. May she rest in peace.

This thread deserves to be one of the crowning jewels of your literary career. I humbly request it be placed on your website where it shall reside forever more as a tribute to the greatest Trek show ever, Star Trek: Voyager

GodBen I must say, I thoroughly enjoyed your trek through Voyager. I have not been a regular poster here. It's been a pleasure. Looking forward to your next few posts here and then "Once More Unto the Breach....."
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Old September 2 2009, 02:12 PM   #2485
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

TheGodBen! My name is TheGodBen.

Seriously though, thanks to everyone for reading and putting up with me, it encouraged me to continue through season 3 and it stopped me from skipping certain Irish-themed episodes.

This thread deserves to be one of the crowning jewels of your literary career.
Yup, 125 pages of spelling errors, poor punctuation and simplistic thought-processes; this thread is up there with The Da Vinci Code.
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Old September 2 2009, 03:29 PM   #2486
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

^
THEGodBen . Noted!

Yup, that's basically how the Da Vinci Code was written. Spot on!
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Old September 2 2009, 04:28 PM   #2487
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I want to thank you, it's been one helluva read. I finished rewatching VOY myself yesterday, and while I remain convinced VOY is my least favourite Trek show, I tried to focus on the good stuff instead of the frustrating aspects and I can say overall I had a fun time rewatching the show.

I'll be onboard for your ENT reviews.
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Old September 2 2009, 05:44 PM   #2488
Vic Sixx
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I also wanted to say thanks, I've been lurking here every day since you started it, but enjoyed it a lot. I admit you faked me out, I'm not a fan of BSG and I've never heard of Jammer.

Thanks.
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Old September 2 2009, 06:36 PM   #2489
Smiley
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I've enjoyed reading this thread, even though I disagree with many of the reviews. I hope your overall experience was a good one, TheGodBen.
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Old September 2 2009, 07:46 PM   #2490
Pemmer Harge
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

This has indeed been a great thread, I salute you! But I'm still a bit disappointed you were only joking about giving Survival Instinct six stars...
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