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Old August 30 2009, 07:11 PM   #2461
Praetor
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

A couple of quick notes since I agree with TheGodBen so long as he avoids his racist diatribes.

I disliked "Nightingale" for being boring and predictable, but two other side things annoyed the crap out of me in the episode.

1) The obvious re-use of the Federation fighters for the Nightingale - and I do mean obvious. DS9 had so many on screen in the later seasons, how were we supposed to not notice?

2) Voyager is performing unassisted maintenance on the warp coils. Now, I'd say this is a good thing taken by itself - actual maintenance shown on screen! Holy crap. However, if you go back and read just how delicate the warp coils are supposed to be (at least according to the TNG) tech manual, hauling them out with shuttles on the surface of a dirty planetary environment to do who-knows-what makes little sense to me. I know, you can get around this a number of ways, but I still found it distractingly disbelievable.

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
Prophesy (*½)

And then the Klingons show up. Makes sense, Voyager has to be in the Beta Quadrant by now, and that is where the Klingons live. Admittedly they live on the other side of the Beta Quadrant and Voyager is more likely to bump into a group of Romulans but... hey, there's an idea! Voyager comes across a Romulan ship, they get into a fight, the Romulan ship is destroyed, Janeway rescues some of them and they're forced to integrate with one another. It would be similar to this episode, but it would be infinitely better because it would have Romulans.
Now you're speaking my language, sir.

There was an excellent issue of DC's TOS comic series in the late nineties that basically had a plot like this (but in TOS.) The Enterprise bumped into a Romulan D7 and fought them, ultimately resulting in both ships being crippled, at which time the Enterprise realized that the reason for the fight (an attack on a nearby Fed base) was actually caused by a third party. Long story short, the Romulans and Enterprise banded together to try to repair their ships and survive, but the Romulans were initially working against the Enterprise. Only the engines of the Enterprise work and only the weapons of the D7 work. Ultimately, the third party shows up to attack both of them, and the Romulans go down in a blaze of glory and take the third party with them, leaving Kirk to wonder if it was an accidental destruction, or a sacrifice to save their grudging allies.

And this was a comic book, kids.

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
Yet another reason why I'm glad I don't read the novels.
Yay, brother.

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
And no, I'm not really called Godfrey, but after coming up with that name I almost wish I was.
Ditto. I shall henceforth call you Godfrey.

And, "The Void" was a good idea, but, like you were getting at, super rushed.

Gep Malakai wrote: View Post
I dated Enterprise once. Pretty girl, nice smile, but she doesn't have whole lot going on besides the good looks, if you know what I mean.


TheGodBen wrote: View Post
Workforce (***½)

Yes, the plot has many holes and you do have to suspend your disbelief in order to accept that any of these events could have happened, but as I've said in the past, if I'm enjoying myself then I'm willing to do that. I enjoyed this episode, largely because I thought it was fun to watch several of the crew living a life with no knowledge of everything that happened on Voyager. All the characters get something to do here and most of it I found interesting.

I'm not a fan of the ECH being real and not a fantasy, especially since they left off the best part (the magically appearing pips). I'm also torn on the issue of Tom being attracted to B'Elanna even though he doesn't remember her, part of me thinks that it's a cop-out that they didn't explore Tom going off with someone else, but a horrible part of me thinks that it is sweet. I hate that part of me, it's disgusting.

There's a somewhat intriguing mystery here and some fun character stuff. But please tell me, what happened to Naomi?

Workforce, Part 2 (**)

The big problem I have with part 2 is that it introduces some new alien characters and they are the ones that resolve the plot with a little help from the Voyager crew. Not only does this take away from the character stuff which made part 1 enjoyable, but these characters are bland and uninteresting. When the sinister plot is revealed it doesn't live up to the intrigue I felt existed in the first part, and the fact that a bunch of boring characters are the ones who figure it out doesn't help.

Then you have the ship-side story where SuperShmully and Kim have disagreements about who is in charge and they eventually learn to respect one another's tactics. I wasn't a fan of this plot. They manage to rescue everybody and everything is reset back to normal, and no matter how the episode ends you know that Janeway isn't going to be fundamentally changed by her experience on the planet. She seems to fall in and out of love faster than MadBaggins.

Torpedoes: 89/38
I didn't like "Workforce" nearly as much as you, Godfrey. Therefore, I picked it apart. The derelict Voyager found in space had been done before ("Macrocosm"), the aliens needing slave labor angle seemed like a forced deus ex machina, and I didn't really care about Janeway's alien boyfriend. Had the episode focused more on the idea of what the crew would have been like freed of their desire to go home or their obligations to Starfleet and whoever else, I might have been much more interested. As such, I found it annoying.

Also, the recycled Breen ships distracted me.

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
Human Error (**)

I want to like this episode a lot more than I do, there's a lot of promise in the idea of having Seven pull a Barclay by living her life on the holodeck. The episode would probably have been better suited in season 5 or 6 when it could have signalled a genuine shift in Seven's character, the back-end of season 7 means it is already too late for this to significantly impact the future of her character, especially since the procedure to help her is put off until the finale. But at least it ties in nicely with Seven's experiences in Unimatrix Zero.
Agreed.

TheGodBen wrote: View Post

Q2 (*)



Okay, I've got to admit, that's pretty funny. I'll give that a point.

Watching this episode inspired me to make this video, so if you've got 7 minutes please check it out and revel in some of the best scene's TNG had to offer.
I lol'd. At both.

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
If you watched the video then you probably know what my point is going to be; Q is at his best when he is teaching humanity something rather than the other way around. Q was at his worst on TNG during season 1, back when it was the humans teaching him lessons, the only exception to this rule (the exception that proves it ) is Deja Q. But that's just another one of the problems with Q2, isn't it? That it is a rehash of Deja Q where the comic skills of John de Lancie and Brent Spiner are replaced with Keegan de Lancie and Manu Intiraymi, which is a bit of a step down.
Generally agreed, but I did think Keegan de Lancie was shag-worthy, despite disliking Q2 the character for the most part.

Where oh where was the Keegan de Lancie/Manu Intiraymi make out bonanza that this episode so desperately needed?

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
Fifteen minutes earlier:
ICHEB: Though it was a blatant violation of the Prime Directive, Kirk saved the Pelosians from extinction, just as he had the Baezians and the Chenari many years earlier. Finally, in the year 2270, Kirk completed his historic five year mission and one of the greatest chapters in Starfleet history came to a close. A new chapter began when Kirk regained command of the Enterprise...
JANEWAY: How many more chapters are there?
ICHEB: Thirty four.
...
Q JUNIOR: I would have failed him. Kirk may have been a lowly human, but at least he had pizazz. That report made him sound about as exciting as a Vulcan funeral dirge.
Oh yeah, they listened to an extremely detailed report about Kirk's life earlier in the episode. You'd think they would have remembered the Kobayashi Maru thing, it does tend to stick out.
They were distracted by all the sexual tension between Q2 and Icheb.

(By the way, just who the hell were the Pelosians, Baezians, or Chenari? Were those names actually in the dialog, because if so, would it have killed them to use at least one real TOS alien race name?)

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
Author, Author (*****)

I'm surprised too, I remembered disliking this episode.

The episode starts out by taking a comical look at a Living Witness style Voyager, and I must admit that I found this to be quite enjoyable. Janew-... sorry, Jenkins shooting a patient in cold blood, En Kimble the hypochondriac and Lt Marseilles the porn-star, good fun is had by all. And the best part is that I actually found myself relating and understanding both sides of the argument, Shmully was clearly being stubbourn but that's just his way, and he was bringing up some valid points. The idea that he views his mobile emmiter as a giant burden he must carry with him everywhere is interesting, and it is something I had not considered before. Tom's method of getting his point across is not only a perfect way to deflate Shmully's ego, it is also very much in character for Tom.

Then comes the second half of the episode which works as Voyager's version of Measure of a Man but with a copyright twist, and Shmully sees himself as fighting for his people rather than just for himself. While the courtroom scenes were a little rushed, it is probably best that it is kept that way so as not to hold back the energy this episode has, and there is no need to go into detail proving that Shmully is a person because the audience is already well aware that he is. The ending also works very well, Shmully doesn't make legal history by having all holograms defined as people, or even himself, but he does win a small victory and opens the doors for those future debates. This is how civil rights are won in the real world, you keep making small victories until equality becomes the norm.

I was also pleased with the scenes of the Voyager crew having conversations with family members back on Earth, they proved quite effective. I know that Voyager isn't going to have a proper finale with these important character reunions, but at least I get to see what they might have been like here. Even Harry Kim gets a good scene.

So, does the episode deserve five stars? Maybe not, but I've not seen a more suitable candidate since Living Witness; I came away from this episode having enjoyed it and with surprisingly few qualms. I could deduct a point for being derivative of Measure of a Man, but instead I'll give it a pass. Consider it my parting gift to Voyager.
Generous of you. I only liked the first part of this episode, really. The holodeck rights thing always, always, always struck me as too derivative of Data's "Measure of a Man" arc. If they wanted to continue that type of exploration with the Doc that's fine, but it got to the point of overkill.

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
Friendship One (**)

An interesting idea for an episode but one which ends up being dull, pointless and dumb. It starts out well enough, I like the idea that the naivety of early humanity's desire to make contact with alien races inadvertently caused a disaster on another world. The scenes of various crewmembers walking through the devastation with no idea that humanity is partly to blame is not only interesting, but it opens up a lot of potential. However, rather than exploring the legitimate grievances these aliens have with humanity, the episode makes the aliens insane conspiracy nuts who accuse humans of some asinine plot to invade the planet, and the real issue is almost side-stepped entirely. That's disappointing.

Then the episode devolves into your standard hostage situation where the goldshirt we haven't seen in six years is the only person to die. I'm not the sort of person who is opposed to characters being killed off, I believe when it is done right it adds to the drama of a series, but Carey's death is pointless, and it has no emotional resonance because the guy was clearly brought back purely to kill him. When I first saw this episode all those years ago I didn't even remember him, he meant that little to me.

Then Voyager solves the problem using magic torpedoes, and Janeway reflects upon Carey's death:

CHAKOTAY: The urge to explore is pretty powerful.
JANEWAY: But it can't justify the loss of lives, whether it's millions or just one.
Um, what? Did this scene just undermine all of Star Trek? Janeway, contradict yourself:

JANEWAY: We seek out new races because we want to, not because we're following protocols. We have an insatiable curiosity about the universe.
SEVEN: Your Chief Engineer and Security Officer were nearly lost today. That is unacceptable.
JANEWAY: To you, maybe, but not to me or my crew. Our experience with the Mari gave us an insight into a culture we've never encountered.
SEVEN: But that is irrelevant.
JANEWAY: No. It's how we gain knowledge.
SEVEN: We are in disagreement.
JANEWAY: Good. I dread the day when everyone on this ship agrees with me. I thank you for your opinion but our mission is not going to change. Dismissed.
Torpedoes: 96/38

We saw two torpedoes being fired, then Janeway orders at least one more volley so that brings a total of four torpedoes (although explosive sounds indicate there might have been a lot more).
Spot on my man. Spot. On.

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
Natural Law (*)

I was a bit confused while watching this episode, most episodes last around 44 minutes and I didn't understand why this episode was allowed to run for over 50 minutes. Then I looked down at the clock/timer on my DVD player and saw that I was only 35 minutes in. There was another act to this thing?! Time had lost all meaning to me.

I found it to be such a dull episode that is derivative of so many other Trek episodes; a shuttle crash, primitive aliens, technobabble deflector shenanigans... this is a bunch of Trek episodes carved up and reserved in a not very interesting way. Even the final act where there is an actual issue to explore isn't interesting, I just wanted the episode to end so I could go back to wasting my life by zooming in on random locations on Google Earth (I'm bound to find a nude sunbather eventually).

Then there's the b-plot involving Tom getting flying lessons, but the actors apparently didn't get the memo I sent them informing them that it's not funny. An episode where Tom is confronted with his reckless piloting might have been a source of amusement, but instead the funny is supposed to come from a grumpy old man who has to get up 6 times a night in order to pee and he's taking his prostate problems out on Tom for no good reason.

But if there is one thing this episode had in spades it is the sexual tension between Seven and Chakotay. Seeing them together in this episode you can tell that these two are meant to spend the rest of their lives together, and the passion in their eyes is so strong that I was half-expecting them to jump one another and make sweet, sweet love in front of the whole tribe.

I think I just broke my sarcasm unit, I may not be able to use it in my final three reviews.

When Seven used the deflector to turn off the magic shield thing, do you think that the shuttle wing that was suspended on the shield fell on one of the primitives? Because I'd like to think that it did.
Good lord, I had to look this one up. And yes, I hated it.
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Old August 30 2009, 10:52 PM   #2462
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

^ Who are you again?

Praetor wrote: View Post
1) The obvious re-use of the Federation fighters for the Nightingale - and I do mean obvious. DS9 had so many on screen in the later seasons, how were we supposed to not notice?
Well they did change the colour and made it bigger, but it was very obvious, yes.

Generally agreed, but I did think Keegan de Lancie was shag-worthy, despite disliking Q2 the character for the most part.
I'm afraid I can't agree with you on that one. John de Lancie maybe, but only in the Q-judge costume.

(By the way, just who the hell were the Pelosians, Baezians, or Chenari? Were those names actually in the dialog, because if so, would it have killed them to use at least one real TOS alien race name?)
I'd give the episode a pass on those because they were apparently towards the end of the five-year mission and we only saw the first three years. They could have referenced some aliens from TAS, but that would add weight to the idea that that show should be part of the canon, which it should not.

Generous of you.
I'm a very generous person, but only on very rare occasions.


Homestead (***½)

I know that some people have objections to Neelix leaving before Voyager reached Earth, but to me is makes a lot of sense. Neelix was never on Voyager to get to Earth, he joined the ship because he saw an opportunity for a better life than scrounging for scrap and he stayed because he made a life for himself. But I always wondered just what he was planning to do once he got to Earth, so having him meet a group of Talaxians and having that trigger in him a desire to be with his own kind works fine for me.

What are Talaxians doing 40,000 light-years from Talax? And how did Voyager manage to stumble across them one day? Valid questions, but I'm willing to ignore them as necessary contrivances for the story.

The episode is a bit slow in places and I don't like Janeway breaking the PD because she's "just helping a friend", as if that's a good excuse to give to a judge. But what this episode does well is serve as a good send-off for Neelix and if an episode can make me feel sad about Neelix leaving, then it must be doing something right. So I'll stick with my tradition of awarding Neelix episodes three and a half stars.


And then there were two.
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Old August 31 2009, 12:09 AM   #2463
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Have you already reviewed Nothing Human? That's one VGR episode that I have very strong opinion on...
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Old August 31 2009, 12:14 AM   #2464
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Thor Damar wrote: View Post
Have you already reviewed Nothing Human? That's one VGR episode that I have very strong opinion on...
Yep, that one was a while back. Handy link to TheGodBen's review: http://trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=30...postcount=1842
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Old August 31 2009, 06:07 PM   #2465
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

destro wrote: View Post
Unfortunately for some bizarre reason they decided to make this lackluster episode a major plot point in the recent Voyager books
And in spite of that the author still managed to turn out one of the best Voyager books in years...
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Old August 31 2009, 07:59 PM   #2466
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

ronny wrote: View Post
destro wrote: View Post
Unfortunately for some bizarre reason they decided to make this lackluster episode a major plot point in the recent Voyager books
And in spite of that the author still managed to turn out one of the best Voyager books in years...
Not that there was much competition, considering how bad most of the Voyager books have been (in my humble opinion of course). But I actually did enjoy the new book, most of it anyway. I just really hate that particular part of it.
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Old August 31 2009, 09:21 PM   #2467
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
I'm starting a masters degree in two weeks, so if I'm able to coast through that as I did with my bachelor degree I'll get around to DS9 in 4 or 5 months, but if I have to put some effort in this time then it could be considerably longer.
If you're going to work AND do the Master's degree I can tell you from personal experience it's going to be longer. Gee, it's not really going to be the same around here without you!
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Old September 1 2009, 03:08 AM   #2468
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I've been training a chimp to type as my replacement, but he was too good. I'm trying out a poodle at the moment but I'm not sure if he'll ready by the time I'm finished.


Renaissance Man (**)

SHMULLY: Voyager can survive without a warp core, but not without a Captain.
I'm fairly certain that should be the other way around. If Janeway dies then morale will drop, but Chakotay has proved himself to be a competent commander during the times when Janeway was away and should be ready to step up the the plate. If the ship doesn't have a warp core then they're dead in space with only reserve power and they have no replacement available. Poor Chakotay, even Doctor Shmully forgot about him.

I was quite pleased with the ending for Shmully's character-arc in Author Author, so it works against this episode that his story now has this additional coda which doesn't make much sense. There's some fun to be had as various actors play Shmully, and the chase sequence has some fun moments, but ultimately there is not much to this episode. I found the worst part to be the two Hierarchy villains who fit perfectly into the "stupid evil" template and the "stupid good" template. And once again this season Janeway refuses to punish Shmully for his actions.

One thing I found telling was during the confession scene as Shmully thought he was going to die; all but one of his confessions was made up purely for that scene. His keeping a record of Janeway's questionable actions, his not liking Kim's saxophone playing, and his revealing of Tuvok's space gonorrhoea didn't mean anything, the only thing with weight was his confession of love to Seven. It made me think back to the end of Scrubs' first season as Jordan revealed to the group the various secrets and rivalries which had built up over the year, I prefer that scene.


I forgot to count the shuttle lost in Natural Law, I believe this is the last one.

Shuttles Lost: 16


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Old September 1 2009, 03:33 AM   #2469
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

And now for the Grand Finale.....may it be your best ever Voyager review GodBen!
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Old September 1 2009, 08:52 AM   #2470
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

GodBen asked me to post his review for him.

EndGame (*)


Thank you for reading my reviews!

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Old September 1 2009, 09:16 AM   #2471
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Akiraprise wrote: View Post
EndGame (*)
I say he surprises us all and gives it five stars.
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Old September 1 2009, 11:28 AM   #2472
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Gep Malakai wrote: View Post
Akiraprise wrote: View Post
EndGame (*)
I say he surprises us all and gives it five stars.
My bet is on him noticing we are making predictions for his last review, so he sells his computer and moves to Zanzibar before posting his last review.
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Old September 1 2009, 01:23 PM   #2473
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Endgame

I typically make it a point to stick to the episode and my own personal thoughts when it comes to writing a review, ignoring much the chatter that happens apart from that, because why make my review about everyone else's opinion? But over the last 8 years Star Trek forums across the internet have expressed a wide range of opinions about Endgame, from those that absolutely loathed it to those who thought it was okay. There are a lot of great points out there, both against and less against the finale. It proves that Endgame is a controversial ending to the series, to the say the least.

And what I've found, to my dismay, is that I can't form a basis for what the "right" review to Voyager's ending is. This review couldn't possibly satisfy everyone. Half the audience is going to slightly disagree with my take on the episode.

So here's what I'm gonna do. I'm going to offer up a twist bigger than any of Voyager's over its seven seasons. I'm going to go straight out of here by employing the Sopranos route for the finale for TheGodBen's Hater Reviews™. I'm going to do what Samantha Wildman did. I'm going to wink out of existence -- cut to black -- and let all of you make up your own damned minds.

Because that's ultimately what this finale is about. Making up your own mind. No amount of my synopsis or opinion or recapping or criticising/criticising slightly less makes a difference. It's a work of fictional art, and it's up to you, the viewer, to render your verdict in the court of public opinion.

Which you've already done via the comments on this forum. I'd like to thank you for writing the review for me, and I mean that sincerely. The quality of comments in here is adequate. It's been a hell of a ride. My only regret is that I didn't let you guys write all these reviews sooner, it could have saved me a lot of time.

If you had told me before Endgame that my review would have no star rating, I'd have called you crazy. But there it is. Voyager's finale is about everyone's ability to forgive what the episode did (or didn't do). It's not about what I can tell you about it. So my review for Endgame is also going to be about you, and not me. I think that's the most fitting way that I can end TheGodBen's Hater Reviews™: By turning it over to all of you.

I'll just leave you with some final words as I close the book on Voyager, which you must read aloud in the voice of Tim Russ' Commander Tuvok:

Damn dawg, you've been played!

Hang on, this is September 1st? Aww bugger, I thought it was April.


Akiraprise wrote: View Post
GodBen asked me to post his review for him.

EndGame (*)


Thank you for reading my reviews!

I'd never say "thank you".
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Old September 1 2009, 05:23 PM   #2474
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

YOU BASTARD

I've been lurking in this thread for MONTHS, and THIS is how you repay my quiet loyalty?!

If there is any fairness in the universe, your personal hell with bare a striking resemblence to Fair Haven.
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Old September 1 2009, 05:58 PM   #2475
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I was going to write an angry rant myself, but Colonel Green already said everything I wanted to say.
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