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Old August 26 2009, 01:37 PM   #181
CTM
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Re: WIP - TMP Enterprise, deck by deck

Saquist wrote: View Post
Amazing though what AutoCAD can do when it's given a world of power. I've become a believer in the 3D too. All my work projects will from now on be produced in 3D and 2D sideby side to judge potential conflicts.

This project of yours, Enterprise Deck by Deck has convinced me of the necessity.

I'm also looking for an upgrade on my computer at home. Perhaps I should have the bad boy built and apparently built like a server.
Isn't it though? No serious design work can be done only in 2D. You MUST build it in 3D or you will be all too likely to miss some critical conflict. Until the advent of computers for Ship Design, the plans as they came from the naval architects would be "interpreted" by the builders. Often, a ship would have to have extensive modifications while still on the slips to make some critical piece of equipment fit. This also led to wild variety among ships of the same class. Now, ships are built in the computer long before they get to the shipyard. While I won't say that modifications have gone away, they have become far less drastic, and things fit together much better (according to my sources at Newport News Shipbuilding, and the Norfolk Navy Yard).

I didn't build my system to be a server. I built it to be a CAD system and a server. That means fast OS HDD (get an SSD if you can justify it, I didn't mostly because my older systems would seem that much slower by comparison. I comprimised though, and got a 300GB VelociRaptor OS HDD), throw as much RAM at it as you can afford/fit (my budget would have allowed for more RAM, but 6x2GB was the best I could get at the moment - the virtualization servers I use at work have 32GB of RAM, and about 8TB data storage. Of course, we also run several hundred virtual machines on them). I bought the most powerful processor I could before hitting the knee of the cost curve (Core i7 2.6GHz - $200, Core i7 3.2GHz - $999; let's see, going from 3.1GHz Pentium IV to Core i7... I could get the extra 600MHz by paying an additional $700?). Video card and monitors of your choice (gaming cards are not a bad idea here).
That ought to be enough for a CAD system. I also wanted virtualization capability, so I had to max my available RAM. I also wanted to run a high capacity RAID, so I put in 3x1.5TB 7400RPM HDD's in a RAID5 configuration. I mounted it at /home, so even if the OS HDD crashes, I have lost none of my user data. I also have samba shared directories on /home, and am setting up all my other systems so that I save all my data to there over the network. You don't need to do that for a CAD system, but I was multi-purposing this system, and that drove many of the stats up.

I also built it myself (Having a Microcenter a mile from your house can be a good thing, but it can also be an expensive thing).

The only other suggestion, make sure you have a UPS that is capable of shouldering the load of the system for at least a few minutes (to survive brownouts). Buying a UPS to be able to maintain operation of the system for any length of time gets expensive.
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Old August 27 2009, 07:12 PM   #182
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Re: WIP - TMP Enterprise, deck by deck

birdog wrote: View Post
There's one little problem with going to 64 bit for him. He's using a version of Autocad that was designed for Win3.1 and Win95.
There's Win XP mode and the compatibility settings to help out with that.

This ground-up Enterprise is amazing...it's how I always picture doing the ship, and it'd definitely be awesome to do a walk through with some 3d game engine of this ship some day.
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Old August 27 2009, 08:15 PM   #183
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Re: WIP - TMP Enterprise, deck by deck

JJohnson wrote: View Post
birdog wrote: View Post
There's one little problem with going to 64 bit for him. He's using a version of Autocad that was designed for Win3.1 and Win95.
There's Win XP mode and the compatibility settings to help out with that.

This ground-up Enterprise is amazing...it's how I always picture doing the ship, and it'd definitely be awesome to do a walk through with some 3d game engine of this ship some day.
I'm stuck using 32-bit WINE under 64-bit CENTOS, so I sill have the 4GB limit, but I probably got away from the XP-imposed 2GB limit (we'll see in time). The other 8GB of RAM allow me to do other things with the system simultaneously (such as running Blender to do high-res renders. Say... do I have time to do that tonight?)

For the 3d walk-through, I am planning on using Blender. Now, if I can just figure out how to use it....
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Old August 27 2009, 08:32 PM   #184
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Re: WIP - TMP Enterprise, deck by deck

To this portion, if I were to design a ship, I'd probably have the intermix chamber further back in the engineering hull, not connect to the impulse system (no real need, and the neck is a vulnerable point to the matter/antimatter system anyhow), and allow the split for the pylons and the drop door. I'd have the drop door simply not cut the shaft in half if I were to do it over again. I'd also use one photorp chamber, large-size, and chalk up the 'clean' photorp room to production oversight.

That said, I think CTM is doing great work trying to adhere as closely as possible to the plans, and that's what I'd be doing as well - try to be as true as possible to the plans, while accommodating the flawed production. CTM - you are doing great work, and I look forward to each update on this thread.

At some point in the future, with this experience in hand, perhaps you could work a 'dream TMP Enterprise' taking into account the conflicting accounts, and correcting them to make it work more logically. But that's for a different time. Excellent work on this!!

James

Cary L. Brown wrote: View Post
DiamondJoe wrote: View Post
The Enterprise D cutaway could be seen in main engineering (during 'Generations' for example, when the Duras sisters view it via Geordi's visor). I think (although I could be wrong) that the E cutaway was displayed at the rear of the bridge.
Ah, I see your error.

You're assuming that because someone did a "cross-section view" that this is either (a) accurate to what we see on screen, or (b) means that there are "deck plans" associated with it.

Neither is true.

In fact, for a great example of this look at DS9, and the Defiant. There are multiple versions of the "cross section" (what we call the "MSD" for "master situation display") Depending on which version you look at, the ship is a different number of decks thick. Does this mean that the ship "grew" a few decks during it's life? Nahhhh...
That corridor is not only featured in TMP. During Khan's first phaser strike we see the cadets fleeing engineering and some of them exit through that door and out through the corridor. And I don't think there's even ten feet to spare there.
All we REALLY see is cadets running out of the damaged area. Whether the corridor continues forward by some distance, or if it's a short "T" and they're fleeing to either side, ultimately, has no impact on the scene, and virtually nobody who didn't freeze-frame that sequence frame-by-frame would notice any details of that corridor. It's an exit. We don't know, and don't care, what's in front of Main Engineering. There's no STORYTELLING reason to be a stickler about something that you barely see for a couple of seconds of screen time, if by doing so you have to TOTALLY TRASH the primary design intent of the set in question.

The "vertical intermix shaft" goes from the bottom of the secondary hull to the impulse deflection chamber. PERIOD. If you don't want to buy that, that's your prerogative, and since the ship doesn't "really" exist, you can decide that in your own "personal canon." But the TMP ship is based upon this as one of the most central aspects of the design. To change it is sort of like saying that you don't really NEED that spine going from your pelvis to your skull.
And even if it is only seen twice - well, its still there, isn't it, no matter how many times you see it?
Not so much, no. The set no longer exists, so the only place it "exists" is on about 2 seconds worth of film, in the background.

I can live with it being "not exactly as seen" for those two seconds of film. Especially if you have to totally compromise the design of the ship, both in terms of internal arrangement and in terms of scale, to accomplish that trivial change.
And my argument isn't really about storytelling - its about the reconciliation with what is seen on-screen (ie, canonical Trek) with the technical realisation and design of the ship from a practical standpoint. I have seen Mr Probert's drawing and I appreciate that was the design intent. My point is that the intent doesn't mesh with canon, and concepts are simply that - concepts. Not final realisations.
Sorry, you're playing "revisionist" in order to make your PERSONAL PREFERENCE take precedence over some other items.

In other words... where two features don't necessarily "match" perfectly, you've chosen the one you'll reject and the one you'll keep.

That's perfectly fine... but it's NOT fine to insist that everyone else accept that the choice you've personally made is the one that they have to accept as well.

You clearly have a preference in how you look at things towards the existing sets. I have a preference towards making sets and external ship design "match up" properly. CTM has a preference towards implementing a physical version of a drawing set he has and turning it, with the least amount of "tweaking" possible, into a 3D "world."

All are OK. All are simply personal preference. After all, NONE of this is real.

You can make recommendations, but if your recommendations are rejected... please let it go. This is CTM's project, not yours, and he's doing this for his own purposes, not in order to meet YOUR requirements (or mine, or anyone elses!)

I've made my own suggestions to CTM, and he's taken a few and left a few alone, and that's FINE with me. I think his work is terrific, and a lot of fun to watch. Enough that I'm starting to think that I might try this one next, if I ever really get around to finishing my TOS one (I've been distracted by real life... specifically, the female portion thereof... recently! )
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Old August 27 2009, 08:33 PM   #185
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Re: WIP - TMP Enterprise, deck by deck

birdog wrote: View Post
CTM wrote: View Post
Gentlemen, do I need to add a War Room to the Enterprise?

Yes please.
There's a gym in the secondary hull now for everyone to use....just set out some sparring mats!
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Old August 27 2009, 09:47 PM   #186
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Re: WIP - TMP Enterprise, deck by deck

^^^ Was also wondering where the bowling alley went to.
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Old August 27 2009, 10:28 PM   #187
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Re: WIP - TMP Enterprise, deck by deck

CTM wrote: View Post
Good news everyone! ...
You realize that from now on, whenever I read your posts, in my head you're going to sound like Professor Farnsworth.
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Old August 28 2009, 03:08 AM   #188
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Re: WIP - TMP Enterprise, deck by deck

Ziz wrote: View Post
CTM wrote: View Post
Good news everyone! ...
You realize that from now on, whenever I read your posts, in my head you're going to sound like Professor Farnsworth.
W-wha? Why must you do that? I blame Wernstrom. WERNSTROM!
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Old August 28 2009, 03:42 AM   #189
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Re: WIP - TMP Enterprise, deck by deck

Nice
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Old August 28 2009, 04:00 AM   #190
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Re: WIP - TMP Enterprise, deck by deck

CTM wrote: View Post
Ziz wrote: View Post
CTM wrote: View Post
Good news everyone! ...
You realize that from now on, whenever I read your posts, in my head you're going to sound like Professor Farnsworth.
W-wha? Why must you do that? I blame Wernstrom. WERNSTROM!
Do you by any chance have your AV at a larger size? Id love to use that as a wall paper
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Old August 28 2009, 12:10 PM   #191
CTM
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Re: WIP - TMP Enterprise, deck by deck

FrontLine wrote: View Post
CTM wrote: View Post
Ziz wrote: View Post

You realize that from now on, whenever I read your posts, in my head you're going to sound like Professor Farnsworth.
W-wha? Why must you do that? I blame Wernstrom. WERNSTROM!
Do you by any chance have your AV at a larger size? Id love to use that as a wall paper
Not substantially larger, no. I googled "Farnsworth Avatar" and got the background picture, and then took an Enterprise linedrawing, inverted it, and inserted it in place of the chalkboard. Took me under 5 min.

I was playing around with importing my WIP into blender last night (actually playing around with getting blender installed on my new system) so I don't have anything new to show as of yet (except the AV, which doesn't count).
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Old August 28 2009, 12:48 PM   #192
Saquist
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Re: WIP - TMP Enterprise, deck by deck

CTM wrote: View Post
Saquist wrote: View Post
Amazing though what AutoCAD can do when it's given a world of power. I've become a believer in the 3D too. All my work projects will from now on be produced in 3D and 2D sideby side to judge potential conflicts.

This project of yours, Enterprise Deck by Deck has convinced me of the necessity.

I'm also looking for an upgrade on my computer at home. Perhaps I should have the bad boy built and apparently built like a server.
Isn't it though? No serious design work can be done only in 2D. You MUST build it in 3D or you will be all too likely to miss some critical conflict. Until the advent of computers for Ship Design, the plans as they came from the naval architects would be "interpreted" by the builders. Often, a ship would have to have extensive modifications while still on the slips to make some critical piece of equipment fit. This also led to wild variety among ships of the same class. Now, ships are built in the computer long before they get to the shipyard. While I won't say that modifications have gone away, they have become far less drastic, and things fit together much better (according to my sources at Newport News Shipbuilding, and the Norfolk Navy Yard).

I didn't build my system to be a server. I built it to be a CAD system and a server. That means fast OS HDD (get an SSD if you can justify it, I didn't mostly because my older systems would seem that much slower by comparison. I comprimised though, and got a 300GB VelociRaptor OS HDD), throw as much RAM at it as you can afford/fit (my budget would have allowed for more RAM, but 6x2GB was the best I could get at the moment - the virtualization servers I use at work have 32GB of RAM, and about 8TB data storage. Of course, we also run several hundred virtual machines on them). I bought the most powerful processor I could before hitting the knee of the cost curve (Core i7 2.6GHz - $200, Core i7 3.2GHz - $999; let's see, going from 3.1GHz Pentium IV to Core i7... I could get the extra 600MHz by paying an additional $700?). Video card and monitors of your choice (gaming cards are not a bad idea here).
That ought to be enough for a CAD system. I also wanted virtualization capability, so I had to max my available RAM. I also wanted to run a high capacity RAID, so I put in 3x1.5TB 7400RPM HDD's in a RAID5 configuration. I mounted it at /home, so even if the OS HDD crashes, I have lost none of my user data. I also have samba shared directories on /home, and am setting up all my other systems so that I save all my data to there over the network. You don't need to do that for a CAD system, but I was multi-purposing this system, and that drove many of the stats up.

I also built it myself (Having a Microcenter a mile from your house can be a good thing, but it can also be an expensive thing).

The only other suggestion, make sure you have a UPS that is capable of shouldering the load of the system for at least a few minutes (to survive brownouts). Buying a UPS to be able to maintain operation of the system for any length of time gets expensive.
I'm saving this post for my end of the year Fry's shopping spree I do to make myself happy. I've never gotten a more complete.

Incidently, it's intresting....we here were just talking UPS and the instability of the Texas power grid. Apperently our little grid isn't as well powered as the West and East Coast grids so surge protectors won't work well here on computers. They said it would kill a computer over time unless it had a continuous flow of power like in a UPS.

I was a bit surprised.
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Old August 30 2009, 01:49 AM   #193
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Re: WIP - TMP Enterprise, deck by deck

Some more progress on G-deck. I've framed Auxiliary Control, and built the inner ring of quarters. I've also placed the corridors that run past the labs, Sick-Bay, and the Transporter Rooms.


There are some extraneous corridor elements crowding Aux. control, they are leftover from my corridor placement, and I generally move them to the next layer when I finish whatever layer I am working on.
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Old August 30 2009, 07:39 PM   #194
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Re: WIP - TMP Enterprise, deck by deck

G deck looks good. One question though - what're those corridors doing outside the saucer? Are those F-Deck? Or just extraneous corridors?

Keep up the good work!

James
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Old August 31 2009, 03:57 AM   #195
CTM
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Re: WIP - TMP Enterprise, deck by deck

JJohnson wrote: View Post
G deck looks good. One question though - what're those corridors doing outside the saucer? Are those F-Deck? Or just extraneous corridors?

Keep up the good work!

James
They are extending into the shallow spot on the underside of the saucer. There is another ring along the outer edge of the saucer that is out of the field of view of this picture. If you look back at the prior pics, you can see the whole deck at an earlier stage.
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