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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old August 18 2009, 12:24 AM   #61
JustKate
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Re: Bleeding orange and green...or what?

Yeah, but, that Google thing does require you to ask stuff, right? It's not like you can say, "Hey, you got any images of the origin of the Galor?"
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Old August 18 2009, 12:29 AM   #62
Thor Damar
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Re: Bleeding orange and green...or what?

Actually I typed in 'Darth Sidious' and voila.

Typing in 'Galor' gets you the Starship that looks like a scorpion riding a Manta Ray.
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Old August 18 2009, 12:31 AM   #63
JustKate
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Re: Bleeding orange and green...or what?

^ A sea-worthy scorpion? Euw. The land-based kind are bad enough.
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Old August 18 2009, 12:34 AM   #64
PSGarak
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Re: Bleeding orange and green...or what?

There were sea scorpions. They were called eurypterids. They are, thankfully, extinct.
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Old August 18 2009, 12:35 AM   #65
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Re: Bleeding orange and green...or what?

I think I've seen the fossils, now that you mention it, PS. Euw. But a scorpion composed of rock is the best kind to have around, IMO.
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Old August 18 2009, 12:44 AM   #66
PSGarak
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Re: Bleeding orange and green...or what?

Yeah. The biggest fossil one discovered to date was an estimated 2.5 meters long. And we think swimming in the ocean is dangerous today? Ha!!
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Old August 18 2009, 01:39 AM   #67
Nerys Ghemor
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Re: Bleeding orange and green...or what?

Wow. That looks like a Galor-class, all right!

http://www.nhm.ac.uk/about-us/news/2...on_12838_1.jpg
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Old August 18 2009, 01:42 AM   #68
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Re: Bleeding orange and green...or what?

Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
Wow. That looks like a Galor-class, all right!

http://www.nhm.ac.uk/about-us/news/2...on_12838_1.jpg
Hmm, did an ancient explorer ship from some long dead civilization take a number of those sea scorpions from Earth and leave them on Cardassia?
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Old August 18 2009, 04:23 AM   #69
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Re: Bleeding orange and green...or what?

Thor Damar wrote: View Post
Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
Wow. That looks like a Galor-class, all right!

http://www.nhm.ac.uk/about-us/news/2...on_12838_1.jpg
Hmm, did an ancient explorer ship from some long dead civilization take a number of those sea scorpions from Earth and leave them on Cardassia?
No. They took them from Cardassia and left them on Earth!
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Old August 18 2009, 10:57 AM   #70
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Re: Bleeding orange and green...or what?

DevilEyes wrote: View Post
I have been very tempted to comment that you are all overthinking this.
Without a doubt.

Timo wrote: View Post
why didn't they just make humanoids?
It does appear logical to me, sort of. These Progenitor folks supposedly began their galactic seeding program because they felt their own mortality catching up on them. They were lonely, they knew they'd go extinct one day, they wanted to leave a monument in form of some sort of offspring, and they didn't want this offspring to be as lonely as they had been.
Really, it strikes me that a sapient species with the capabilities of the ancient humanoids is probably the least likely one in the whole galaxy to die out. It is far more likely that their untended experiments would go disastrously awry--as it surely did, many times, on Earth, unless it was all part of their plan, and they accurately predicted the late heavy bombardment, and the P-T and K-T extinctions amongst others, which is bewilderingly advanced.

Given this, I wonder if the Progenitors and Battlestar Galactica's God are the same people. They both go to insane lengths to accomplish very questionable goals.

It also seems very unlikely that you can code humanity into a prokaryote, which were probably the only thing that would have existed when the progenitors were doing their thing, at all. Even if you could, surely it would have been noticed very rapidly that the staggering amounts of junk DNA in virtually every life form on every planet visited by the progenitors coded the same information as what is likely to have been the most studied DNA on any of those planets, that of the humanoid being.

There is also a question of physical possibility of the progenitors' carbon-based evolution beginning perhaps as far back as nine to ten billion years ago. Astrophysically speaking, that long ago, did sufficient concentrations of carbon, nitrogen, oxygen and other materials vital for life-as-we-know-it exist?
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Old August 18 2009, 11:16 AM   #71
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Re: Bleeding orange and green...or what?

Really, it strikes me that a sapient species with the capabilities of the ancient humanoids is probably the least likely one in the whole galaxy to die out.
Die out, of external reasons? Probably not. Die out, of internal reasons? No doubt sooner or later. Mutate into something that doesn't leave much mark on the galaxy, unless a nostalgic memorial is erected? That seems a given.

It is far more likely that their untended experiments would go disastrously awry--as it surely did, many times, on Earth
I wouldn't call that particularly distastrous. One planet here or there... Who's counting? And it seems they succeeded on Earth twice, producing both the Voth and the Humans, and may succeed a number of times still before Sol goes out.

unless it was all part of their plan
It probably was. I mean, it's a no-brainer: build in the code that perverts natural evolution into humanoid evolution, and let events run their course so that the galaxy always stays populated with humanoids. A given planet may produce anything from zero to half a dozen humanoid cultures, and on the average, the plan will proceed unsupervised till all eternity.

Even if you could, surely it would have been noticed very rapidly that the staggering amounts of junk DNA in virtually every life form on every planet visited by the progenitors coded the same information as what is likely to have been the most studied DNA on any of those planets, that of the humanoid being.
And our heroes did notice it, eventually. It takes a bit of starfaring to accomplish, though, since without interstellar comparisons, one wouldn't be aware of what constitutes "humanoid DNA".

However, the actual Progenitor plan wasn't coded in base pairs AFAWK. Only the message sent to future generations was. And even that message probably relied on levels of information storage that weren't evident at mere molecular level.

Astrophysically speaking, that long ago, did sufficient concentrations of carbon, nitrogen, oxygen and other materials vital for life-as-we-know-it exist?
If anything, astrophysics today is tending toward an increasingly early introduction of stars as we know them - thus, also second-generation stars capable of sprouting life-friendly systems. I wouldn't sweat the odds of one planet out of billions being life-generating and life-sustaining early on in the Trek history, then, especially not when apparently most planets are that way in the present time. Although the latter might be due to extensive terraforming. And that is probably the work of the Progenitors, directly or indirectly: by engineering a specific type of technological sentience to be prevalent, they'd also dictate what sort of geomanipulation that sentience would perform, and thus all their offspring would be producing the same sort of planets...

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Old August 18 2009, 11:28 AM   #72
PSGarak
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Re: Bleeding orange and green...or what?

^^ It's unlikely, but not completely impossible. Most measurements of the age of the Universe fall between 12-14 billion years. In the first 2 billion years of that time, it is believed that no stars contained planetary systems. There wasn't enough spare material for the formation of rocks or dust. Carbon can only be formed in a star that has become a red giant, in other words, a star that has entered approximately the last 10% of its lifespan. Because it is difficult to pinpoint accurate time frames for things that happened that long ago, most astronomers say hundreds of millions to several billion years passed before the formation of carbon. If it was just hundreds of millions of years, then yes, it would be possible for carbon to have been around by then, but there would have been no planets to sustain life from that carbon. Even if we assume that planets started forming after 2 billion years, it would have taken a great deal of time for any of those new planets to become habitable. It's an awfully big stretch.
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Old August 18 2009, 12:31 PM   #73
Timo
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Re: Bleeding orange and green...or what?

Well, a big stretch is what we're looking for, really. After all, the Progenitors were alone in the galaxy, meaning that the odds of carbon life developing at their time and age were slim.

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Old August 18 2009, 05:12 PM   #74
Nerys Ghemor
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Re: Bleeding orange and green...or what?

What I have personally wondered would be, what is the vector for the seeding? I've always thought it had to be a retrovirus of some sort, something programmed to be extremely stable and maintain its code over billions of years so that it can repeatedly guide the evolution of the target species...in other words, one HECK of a technological accomplishment. Especially when you consider that we've seen it work on mammalians of varying biochemistries (humans, Vulcans), therapsids (Cardassians), reptilians (Voth), and other forms entirely.

Whether this is actually feasible or not, I'm not sure and rather doubt, but it's the only explanation I can come up with in the context of the Star Trek universe.
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Old August 18 2009, 06:30 PM   #75
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Re: Bleeding orange and green...or what?

JustKate wrote: View Post
I'm enjoying it, too, and I do also enjoy the aforementioned symbol of the Glorious Cardassian Union, but I'm not sure I enjoy it for the same reason other people, possibly more normal people (possibly not ) do. I mean, seriously...to me, that is an amazingly creepy symbol. I have been told that it's based on a manta ray, but it reminds me of two things, none all that "Glorious": a scorpion (I grew up in the desert and so I don't give venomous critters much of a thought, really, but scorpions are one of the critters that give me a serious case of the heebie-jeebies) and Darth Vader.
And in what is either an important connection or an astonishing coincidence, a individual extremely physically similar to the Cardassian we know as 'Elim Garak' - although apparently of human appearance - was known on Earth in the beginning of the 8th decade of the 20th century, as 'Scorpio Killer', until he was shot dead by one Inspector Harry Callahan.
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