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Old August 6 2009, 06:57 PM   #2311
Bertie
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

GodBen wrote: View Post

Why not keep the Equinox around for the season? Equinox survives and is salvageable, so they use Voyager's magic healing abilities on the Equinox to bring it back to a workable condition. Chakotay is given command of the ship and he starts acting a little more independently from Janeway, perhaps even breaking her orders and using the Equinox to go on some mission he feels is morally justified (á la Tom in Thirty Days). I've said for the last three seasons that Chakotay's character has been useless since Seksa died, this would give him some much-needed direction and it could also do the same for Harry by making him the first officer. In Unimatrix Zero Part 2 Chakotay is forced to sacrifice the Equinox in order to rescue Janeway and co. Yes, I'm am stealing the Pegasus plot from BSG, so sue me.
I've always thought that Voyager the show would have been improved by having other ships (usually alien ones, but in this example the Equinox) flying along with the USS Voyager for multiple episodes every now and then — opportunities for arcs and subplots and all that. Oh, well.
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Old August 7 2009, 01:43 PM   #2312
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

startrekwatcher wrote: View Post
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Mike Sussman also co-wrote one episode
Well he really didn't co-write UZ. Plus if you read the article he posted a few weeks back you can see how his input was very minor. UZ is really a Braga and Menosky story.
Actually, I was referring to The Haunting of Deck Twelve, he co-wrote the teleplay with Biller and Fuller.

I'm pretty sure Doherty also wrote season four's "Vis a Vis".
Yeah, Memory Alpha really screwed me over on that guy, his page doesn't list the episodes where he is credited Robert J. Doherty. IMDb says that they're the same person and credited him with Vis a Vis and Bliss, so I updated the graphs with those details.

I'm not too crazy about trials. I know Moore had mentioned wanting to do a trial story but if it would be something akin to Baltar's trial on nBSG I'm glad they didn't. Except one or two isolated moments I found that rather underwhelming.
Personally, I greatly enjoyed the majority of Baltar's trial and would have enjoyed something similar on Voyager. I don't watch lawyer-based shows because they're not my thing, but I like it when Trek delves into that arena every once in a while, something along the lines of The Drumhead would have been nice.

Who really cares about this? The nanovirus that was released that restored individuality to the drones did the same thing as the virus MacGuffin you suggest. I really don't see the difference. Both would be a means to restore their selves so they could fight back.
Firstly, I don't like the representation of Unimatrix Zero as some sort of happy forest tribe, and I don't like how random the whole thing is, so I'm trying to get rid of the thing. What I like about modifying Icheb's pathogen is that it would allow the Borg children to play a part in the bigger picture, and I love it when season finales use elements established earlier in the season, such as the message from Starfleet being used in the season 4 finale. I find that things like that help give a sense of closure to each season.

It would affect 1 in 4 Borg, not 1 in 1,000,000, that way the rebel Borg have a chance to inflict serious damage upon the collective
Well that was never defined in part 1 and I never got the sense from the first part that the UZ rebels would be anything more than a nuisance. Judging by how we never hear from them again it is easy to assume that that's all that UZ was and they were promptly wiped out in the weeks following their liberation.

(I don't read the novels, I only follow the events on the shows, so UZ may have played a part in the novels but that has no impact upon me.)

Janeway and the others are modified to carry the pathogen and they allow themselves to be assimilated in order to infect the collective.
Which is what happened. The only difference is you would have had them carrying Icheb's pathogen which apparently much like Hugh's invasive program would have only affected the drones on the ship JTT were on and halting the story whereas the writers wisely had a technovirus that having been developed from a Borg technovirus could be uploaded into the central plexus without being flagged as a foreign threat being introduced because it would be recognized as Borg.
They would have planned for that and found a way for the pathogen to be transmitted beyond the ship. All I want to do is get rid of Unimatrix Zero because I felt that execution was stupid and boring.
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Old August 8 2009, 12:19 AM   #2313
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Unimatrix Zero, Part 2 (*½)

JANEWAY: I don't compromise with Borg.


From Scorpion, Part 2:

JANEWAY: I've reached an agreement with the Collective.
Nah, lets not let facts get in the way of a kewl one-liner.

AXUM: It turns out I'm on a scout ship patrolling the border of fluidic space, on the other side of the galaxy.
SEVEN: I was hoping we'd be able to meet one day, in the real world.
AXUM: Me too.
If only the Borg had the ability to open some sort of interdimensional rift that would allow instant passage to fluidic space, then we wouldn't have this pathetic excuse for getting rid of Seven's love interest of the week.

Oh, wait...

SEVEN: Axum's vessel is in a remote sector of the Beta quadrant.
No it bloody well ain't! From Scorpion again:

TUVOK: We appear to have crossed an interdimensional rift.
PARIS: We've definitely left our galaxy. No stars, no planets.
Fluidic space is in another dimension. The Beta Quadrant is most definitely not.

QUEENIE: Spatial grid zero nine one, sphere eight seven eight. Complement eleven thousand drones. Only one is silent but I have no choice. I must silence all of them. I know how this must upset you, Captain. As a Starfleet officer you value all life, even drones. How many more are you willing to sacrifice?
KABOOM!

At least another 75,000 dead in order to get 140 people home a few years earlier.

Maybe I'm a heartless git (anything is possible) but I say that if Queenie wants to blow up a tenth of the Borg fleet in order to destroy a few million independent drones then you shouldn't try to stop her. You're at war with the Borg and this will significantly hinder any attempts by them to assimilate other worlds, including Earth. Billions of lives will be saved from the horrors of assimilation and all you've got to do is sit black and watch the fireworks. And to be perfectly frank, I don't like these attempts to humanise the Borg. I think that Picard made the wrong decision in I, Borg and I think that Janeway's moral objection to the Borg shooting themselves in the foot is silly.

Not quite as silly as B'Elanna being knocked out of the way in the Borg's pursuit of Janeway and none of the Borg thinking to capture her just in case she decides to make sabotage the ship at the end. Why are the Borg so dumb?

Things I liked? Tuvok's descent into dronedom, it is interesting that the one with the most mental discipline is the one who broke first. There's a nice scene where Shmully tries to mask his pain while talking to Seven about Axum, Picardo sold me on that scene. And stuff gets blowed up really nicely towards the end, although it was a little sickening to hear a Borg speaking technical jargon, it assists the ruination of a once incredible foe.

Torpedoes: 77/38

Ladies and gentlemen, Joe Menosky has left the building.
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Old August 8 2009, 01:02 AM   #2314
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

So much hope, so much potential that "Unimatrix Zero" and a Borg civil war had and it never went anywhere. I kept waiting for it to be revisited in one of the season seven telefilms or in the finale but nothing materialized but a bit of namedropping.

I give it just 2 stars out of 4. Disappointing.

interesting set up means nothing if the payoff isn't up to what came before it.

I don't mind plot conceits but be consistent. The queen should have immediately detected the severed JTT as we saw her doing when she started blowing up the cubes. At the end of Part I even the queen inhaled like she could sense them. I was more than willing because I liked the idea of this storyline so much to suspend disbelief that the freed drones couldn't be heard any longer.

Braga and Menosky clearly didn't have much of an idea after using up all the elements in part I of what to do with part II which is sad given that this was one of those ideas that should have spawned no shortage of interesting directions. Clearly Braga and Menosky were going through the motions with their hearts elsewhere--Brannon with developing ENT and Menosky back in Italy.

I was surprised to see that they spent so much time in this episode with the trio trying to break into the plexus and uploading the virus. I think they could have streamlined this a bit. I was also surprised to see Tuvok fall victim first given the famous Vulcan mental discipline but I guess the telepathic nature of Vulcans made him more susceptible to the link.

It was neat seeing the trio in full Borg mode and the intriguing sight of them as individuals while looking all decked out in their Borg get-up. One thing though I didn't like was the while holographic projection of Janeway in her regular appearance. No doubt it was to allow as little time for Mulgrew in the makeup chair.

I also was hoping for more about the origin of the queen and uz--some kind of intriguing connection revealed possibly even tying the two together somehow. Maybe UZ was a recreation of the homeworld of the original species that ultimately became the BOrg and this was their way of holding on to what they once were and over time as was mentioned by Seven in "Dragon's Tooth" the memories from that far back were fragmentary hence no memory of it. I felt we were on the cusp of this when she visited UZ herself and started talking about how she was assimilated as a child but sadly it never went much further.

And another moment of interest was when Axum spoke of going straight to U1 and disrupting the Queen's hold yet it never went there. I would have preferred more of this than the pointless and uninteresting Seven/Axum relationship. I was not for one moment the least bit interested in it. There were just too many dull scenes padding the hour--the Chakotay/Paris scene/arguing etc.

There were a few interesting or exciting moments--the sight of Borg vessels firing on each other, that one drone with Queen who once regaining his individuality lashes out at her, the Janeway/Queen showdown over the destruction of the cubes. I actually thought part of the reason the writers made the ship JTT ended up on being a tactical cube was for two clever story reasons--one to make it so dificult to gain access that assimilation was the only way to gain access to the plexus and the second was to let JTT capture such a formidable vessel which would certainly help and come in handy. The writers also failed to provide a plausible reason for why the UZ drones didn't offer up a transwarp coil(s)

This really could have been a nice three or four episode arc--they could have brought in 8472, Starfleet and other races who had an interest in the Borg's downfall working together across the entire galaxy but alas nothing. I mean why were they in such a hurry to wrap up this particular story. It wasn't like they had a lot of other pressing dangling story threads to get to. I mean was "Q2", "Natural Law", "Nightengale", "Drive", "Prophecy", "Friendship One" more urgent or interesting than one of the few ongoing threads than the Borg threat.
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Old August 8 2009, 06:37 AM   #2315
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Welp, that season cliffhanger was resolved in all of five seconds. 'Oh no, we've been assim- No, wait, that was the plan.' Including some technobabble technology that is never heard of before or after this episode that allows our heroes to somehow manage to retain their individuality. Honestly, I think the fact that this is just a complete non-issue is what bothers me most about this half of the two-parter. THIS IS AN IMPORTANT BREAKTHROUGH. This is a piece of technology that allows people who are assimilated to be able to retain their individual personalities - in and of itself, it should have been a focus (perhaps a b-plot). But more important than that, it's EXPERIMENTAL, and the Captain, Tactical Officer, and Chief Engineer board a Borg vessel and get assimilated in the name of testing it - meaning if it had failed, they'd just handed over three of the four people (the fourth being Seven) who know most about Voyager and her crew and systems to the Borg. How is it that these people are so stupid and yet survive? Dumb luck can only get you so far... But seriously, you'd think this kind of thing would have a greater importance than to be just casually tossed aside.
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Old August 8 2009, 04:34 PM   #2316
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

DGCatAniSiri wrote: View Post
Welp, that season cliffhanger was resolved in all of five seconds. 'Oh no, we've been assim- No, wait, that was the plan.' Including some technobabble technology that is never heard of before or after this episode that allows our heroes to somehow manage to retain their individuality. Honestly, I think the fact that this is just a complete non-issue is what bothers me most about this half of the two-parter. THIS IS AN IMPORTANT BREAKTHROUGH. This is a piece of technology that allows people who are assimilated to be able to retain their individual personalities - in and of itself, it should have been a focus (perhaps a b-plot). But more important than that, it's EXPERIMENTAL, and the Captain, Tactical Officer, and Chief Engineer board a Borg vessel and get assimilated in the name of testing it - meaning if it had failed, they'd just handed over three of the four people (the fourth being Seven) who know most about Voyager and her crew and systems to the Borg. How is it that these people are so stupid and yet survive? Dumb luck can only get you so far... But seriously, you'd think this kind of thing would have a greater importance than to be just casually tossed aside.
The whole time I was watching the last part of UZ Pt. 1, I was thinking, "Isn't this what redshirts are for?" I mean really -- sending your captain, chief engineer and head of security to mess with the Borg? At the very least, it should have been Chakotay instead of Janeway -- I believe that's an actual Starfleet regulation, come to think of it, the First Officer leads potentially hostile away missions. I'm pretty sure tampering with a Borg vessel counts as a potentially hostile away mission.

And then in Part 2 when they revealed their "cunning master plan" it was even more unbelievable. Send Ayala. Send Kim. (No wait, don't send Kim, he'll just get himself incapacitated like he always does.) Send Harren or Mulcahey or Vorik .... but for the love of God, the CAPTAIN? WTF ...
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Old August 9 2009, 01:19 AM   #2317
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Is it me or has this once highly active and interesting thread started to run out of gas. Nobody hardly comments anymore.
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Old August 9 2009, 02:06 AM   #2318
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

startrekwatcher wrote: View Post
Is it me or has this once highly active and interesting thread started to run out of gas. Nobody hardly comments anymore.
I've been reading but I've been running kind of my own review thread on Babylon 5. Really that is the only thread on the entire board I've been following.
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Old August 9 2009, 03:41 AM   #2319
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I've just begun watching season 7 myself and am still reading this thread. But to be honest I'm more interested in GodBen's upcoming Enterprise reviews, because I like that series better.
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Old August 9 2009, 04:55 AM   #2320
TheGodBen
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

startrekwatcher wrote: View Post
Is it me or has this once highly active and interesting thread started to run out of gas. Nobody hardly comments anymore.
I blame the government.

It has certainly become quieter in the thread for the last season or so, but the view-counter is still going up by a few hundred every day. Part of the problem is me, by season 5 things started to become very "meh" in my opinion, and in an attempt to keep myself interested in the thread I started turning more and more towards jokes rather than analysis. Some people probably lost interest because of that. Many of the people who had been around from the beginning of the thread also stopped visiting the board as frequently as they once did so they no longer have the time to post in here, and for noobs the shear length of the thread might be intimidating. Also, many of the people who have an interest in the thread were probably "haters" themselves and gave up on the show at some point, those people might have stopped paying attention to the thread once I passed the point where they gave up on the show.

And apparently some people were offended by a joke I made about rohypnol in my Timeless review.
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Old August 9 2009, 06:34 AM   #2321
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Well then why don't you do a season seven capsule review and wrap it up and move on to ENT. Hey that was the attitude from the people working on VOY at the time Maybe interest in that will peak especially with the last two seasons and we'll get a thread as interesting as this was at one time.

Afterall season seven was pretty bland. Biller's much talked about take over of the writing staff really didn't change much and I found this a step down from season six and for a final season there was a lot of pointless filler clogging the airwaves.
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Old August 9 2009, 02:00 PM   #2322
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

startrekwatcher wrote: View Post
Well then why don't you do a season seven capsule review and wrap it up and move on to ENT. Hey that was the attitude from the people working on VOY at the time Maybe interest in that will peak especially with the last two seasons and we'll get a thread as interesting as this was at one time.

Afterall season seven was pretty bland. Biller's much talked about take over of the writing staff really didn't change much and I found this a step down from season six and for a final season there was a lot of pointless filler clogging the airwaves.
NO! He needs to do all the ep's. It just wouldn't feel complete. Then he can do the Enterprise reviews, and afterwards we can decide together on the next show he will review. We might even let him have a say in it.

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Old August 9 2009, 02:08 PM   #2323
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I've come this far so I may as well finish the thing off properly, the thread is still getting good views after all. It is also seeming likely that I'll be going back to college to do my masters next month, so depending upon that I could be very busy soon. I don't want to start Enterprise until I know how busy I'm going to be so I may as well use this last month of freedom to finish off Voyager, then I'll see where I stand in terms of time-management, then I'll start Enterprise. I don't want Enterprise to be a debacle like Jammer's TNG reviews.

Jayson wrote:
Then he can do the Enterprise reviews, and afterwards we can decide together on the next show he will review.
If the Enterprise thread turns out to be popular then I already agreed to do DS9 next, it's going to be my reward for watching all of Voyager.
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Old August 9 2009, 04:25 PM   #2324
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I also want to read your opinion of "Author, Author" and its implications for the character of the Federation, so I'm pleased to know you'll continue this thread.
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Old August 9 2009, 05:08 PM   #2325
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

GodBen wrote: View Post
Unimatrix Zero, Part 2 (*½)

JANEWAY: I don't compromise with Borg.


From Scorpion, Part 2:

JANEWAY: I've reached an agreement with the Collective.
Nah, lets not let facts get in the way of a kewl one-liner.
Hold on - you're not accounting for one thing here. Janeway struck that deal with the borg at the end of Season 3 only to watch them betray that deal in Scorpion 2 when Seven tried to assimilate the ship after the borg got what they wanted. Lucky thing they were prepared for that. Was she compromising with the borg then? She struck a deal but was prepared for them to renege on it.

Forward to three years later: "I don't compromise with the borg." Well if I took a shot at a deal three years previously and saw that deal fall through I would have a no compromise policy too. That's called "lessons learned" or as Scotty once said "Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me."
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