The Typhon Pact

[iguana_tonante]

SpaceLama wrote:

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Certain aspects of the Typhon Pact, seem to resemble the European Union more - including shared government and single currency.

Then Italy goes to play the part of the Tzenkethi, being loudmouthed but hardly effective.

[Sci]

JB2005 wrote:

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I think she does...or at least suspects...

How's that? Journalist Ozla Graniv was told by Admiral Ross had had Zife killed, not Section 31. That's the message she passed on to Press Liaison Kant Jorel, which Jorel then passed on to Chief of Staff Esperanza Piñiero, who then passed it on to President Bacco before Ross was forced to retire.

There has literally been no interaction between Bacco and Section 31 depicted since then, and during his scene in Articles, Ross made it clear in his inner monologue that he felt he had to make sure Bacco never learned of Section 31 lest she be assassinated as well.

There is, in short, literally no indication at all that President Bacco has ever heard of them.

[JB2005]

Sci wrote:

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How's that? Journalist Ozla Graniv was told by Admiral Ross had had Zife killed, not Section 31. That's the message she passed on to Press Liaison Kant Jorel, which Jorel then passed on to Chief of Staff Esperanza Piñiero, who then passed it on to President Bacco before Ross was forced to retire.

There has literally been no interaction between Bacco and Section 31 depicted since then, and during his scene in Articles, Ross made it clear in his inner monologue that he felt he had to make sure Bacco never learned of Section 31 lest she be assassinated as well.

There is, in short, literally no indication at all that President Bacco has ever heard of them.

Hence think rather than know for a fact.

If you notice, the scene in Artices of The Federation is told entirely from Ross' perspective, we have know idea what Bacco was thinking at the time...our perception of that meeting is filtered through him.

And that fact you allude to could be why Bacco wouldn't mention S31, if she did know about them then she wouldn't want to tip her hand.

[rahullak]

^
Speculative conjecture.
Based on what we know from the books published so far, Bacco has no idea about Section 31.

[JB2005]

^ Yeah, which is why i said think not know

And we know that S31 fell some time before the 25th Century (Leaving 18 or so years to do it)

We know Ross considered Bacco a person who would be most likely able to deal with them.

We know most of the "heroes" are aware of S31...

It's reasonable conjecture, plus I'm sure KRAD made a comment somewhere about the ambiguity of whether Bacco knew about S31 and he wrote AoTF...

[flandry84]

With the rogues gallery of moustache-twirling baddies like the Romulans,Gorn and the Tzenkethi,I would have likened the Typhon pact to Trek's very own "Axis of evil".(gulp!)And we all know where that might lead to...goldshirts on the Gorn homeworld searching for WMD'S.

[SpaceLama]

I think the Tholians, Breen, Romulans, etc, are a little more powerful than some small, technologically backward, economically impoverished, dictatorship.

[JB2005]

^ So they might actually have wmd?

I don't think that was ever in the mission profile...

[rahullak]

We already know the Romulans (through the Remans) have the knowhow and possibly some more prototypes of Thelaron weapons. The others we don't know.

[JB2005]

Yeah, but the Khitomer Alliance has Transphasic Torpedoes...

[flandry84]

SPACELAMA
/\Not exactly my point...
It will be interesting to see the Federation deal with this new political entity.A political problem as opposed to a military one.Please treat the wmd comment as the snide quip that it was.


As for the other,sometimes a superpower will find that kind of opposition the most difficult to defeat.

[Braxton]

SpaceLama wrote:

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Certain aspects of the Typhon Pact, seem to resemble the European Union more - including shared government and single currency.

This is not a simple USA and China metaphor - the Typhon Pact does not resemble the single-state economic partner that China is to the USA (TNG arguably used the Romulans for that, at least to some extent, although they took on aspects of North Korea, Soviet Russia, etc, too) - neither does it seem to be a Warsaw Pact - with a giant Russia using the others as satellites.

If anything, the Typhon Pact resembles a kinda 'dark' EU - no EU member states have had recent major hostilities with the USA, and most are economic partners with the USA - but states in the Typhon Pact like the Tholians have had recent conflicts, and seem to be pretty economically independent of the UFP.

The EU was one of my first thoughts but it never crossed my mind to consider the TP as a 'dark' EU, mainly because there are not really any tensions between the US and the EU but there are with China but that's not the point of this thread. Perhaps they formed this new government because they didn't want to deal with a money-less society? Waiting for these books is going to be painful.

[Rush Limborg]

'Pax Britannica' mearly refers to peaceful trading conditions, such as absense of piracy, not a lack of suffering amongst the common folk of the world.

Mass suffering has occured throughout history, folks--as have conflicts. When you compare all the risks of massive full-scale war breaking out today with all the risks then...you get my earlier point.

And Sci...is "you would be erroneous" grammatically correct? Because I would think "your information is erroneous" would be more appropriate.

Just sayin'....


As for Bacco and Section 31...I'd think Nan would surely suspect something by now. I wonder exactly what was going through her mind as she learned that Ross was going to resign.

I'd put my money on "Now that was a little suspicious...does Ross honestly expect me to believe that someone with his record of loyalty and integrity would assasinate a president? There's more to this than meets the eye...I'm sure of it...."

[Sci]

Rush Limborg wrote:

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Mass suffering has occured throughout history, folks--as have conflicts. When you compare all the risks of massive full-scale war breaking out today with all the risks then...you get my earlier point.

You did not say anything about the risks of a potential nuclear or other WMD war. You simply claimed that the Victorian era was more peaceful than the present era. I and others have only shown that the Victorian era had more violent conflicts and human rights abuses than the modern era has tended to have.

That shouldn't be taken as a claim that the present day is without horrific abuses and conflicts, either. It's simply a statement that things are better today than they were then.

As for Bacco and Section 31...I'd think Nan would surely suspect something by now. I wonder exactly what was going through her mind as she learned that Ross was going to resign.

1. Ross didn't resign, he retired.

2. He retired because she told him he was going to.

There has yet been no evidence established to indicate that President Bacco suspects the existence of Section 31. Doesn't mean she doesn't -- but there's nothing establishing that yet.

I'd put my money on "Now that was a little suspicious...does Ross honestly expect me to believe that someone with his record of loyalty and integrity would assasinate a president? There's more to this than meets the eye...I'm sure of it...."

It's possible -- but, there again, I think something to bear in mind about the Bacco/Ross relationship is that Bacco has never trusted Ross or respected him all that much. If you look at War/Peace and Articles, they're full of scenes between Ross and Bacco told from Bacco's POV that have all these little negative observations and expressions of annoyance or distrust. Bacco doesn't hold Ross in the kind of esteem that we in the audience do.

[SpaceLama]

Braxton wrote:

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The EU was one of my first thoughts but it never crossed my mind to consider the TP as a 'dark' EU, mainly because there are not really any tensions between the US and the EU but there are with China but that's not the point of this thread. Perhaps they formed this new government because they didn't want to deal with a money-less society? Waiting for these books is going to be painful.

Nobody really understands how the Federation's economy operates - there are conflicting quotes in Star Trek. I think the Federation economy is largely a post-scarcity society, but that luxuary items above and beyond the basic developmental needs of the people, are still traded for. If thats the case, I cannot really see how the Typhon Pact would be much different.

Perhaps the post-scarcity nature of these interstellar economies is what allows them to go off on isolationist policies - in our own time, China could hardly de-couple itself from the US economy, without causing a huge impact - but in the 24th century, the Federation may only gain things like Tholian silk from the Tholians.