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Old August 3 2009, 04:30 AM   #91
Nerys Myk
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Re: Superman and Batman to join forces with Islamic superheroes

theenglish wrote: View Post
CaptainCanada wrote: View Post
As for 'atheist', writers have always avoided ascribing religion to him like the plague lest it diminish his universality; if it's ever brought up, it's usually stated that he's big on Rao, the Kryptonians' god.
In fact, if one had to assign a religion to Superman, wouldn't he be jewish?
Why would he be Jewish? Because his creators were? Where's the logic in that?
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Old August 3 2009, 04:31 AM   #92
Nerys Myk
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Re: Superman and Batman to join forces with Islamic superheroes

darkwing_duck1 wrote: View Post
Galactus wrote: View Post
Misfit Toy wrote: View Post
What precisely do you mean by "his ilk"?
Can't wait for this answer. I am still trying to see where I said that was what I wanted to do. Take for instance GI Joe and Ripcord. Don't get that change at all especially since GI Joe was one of the most diverse groups in the 80's and there were plenty of black characters to chose from as a friend.

What I said was that you could make changes and it would not take away from anything. But just like this group of heroes, creating orginal characters is my preferred method.
By ilk I mean those sharing is misguided philosophy.
Aren't you responding to him?
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Old August 3 2009, 04:37 AM   #93
Hartzilla2007
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Re: Superman and Batman to join forces with Islamic superheroes

You know there are two major factors that should be considered when thinking about changing the ethnicity, sex, and or sexuality of comicbook characters

1) The comic fans

Now the audience reaction or possible reaction can decide what changes are made to characters and if these changes are premanent

example 1: Hal Jordan

In the 1990s DC decided to change Green Lanterns by replacing Hal with Kyle Rayner and to implement this change Hal should go insane and destroy the Green Lantern Corps and become the villian Parallax and then he redeemed himself and died, oh and they blew up Coast City. This did not go over well with Hal's fans so they brought him back to life, made him a Green Lantern again, and reconted the whole thing as Hal being the meat puppet bitch of a giant yellow grasshopper named Parallax to make said fans happy again.

example 2: Jason Todd

Jason was brought in to replace Dick Grayson as Robin since Dick had become Nightwing, at first Jason was basically a clone of Dick and then after Crisis On Infinite Earths he was reconted to have a different backstory, long story short the audience didn't take on to him DC had a poll Jason was beaten half to death by the Joker and finished off with a bomb, though Jason was brought back later as a bad guy then good guy then bad guy again.

2) How changes in the guys running the comic company affect the changes in the characters.

Sometimes when the head guys are changed out the new guys will either make changes or reset changes until other new guys come and do the same.

Example: The Multiverse

At first the guys who came up with it used it to differentiate the Silver ang Golden Ages ut grew to tell stories without affecting the main continuity and introducing new characters and such. The next guys thought it was too confusing and merged the multiverse into one universe in Crisis on Infinite Earths. The next guys after that decided to recreate the multiverse in Infinite Crisis.

So as you can see there are major factors that must be considered before proposing that a comic book company make major changes to their characters.

Now getting back to what we ARE ACTUALLY DISCUSSING!

I think they should go for it and anyone who doesn't like the idea just remember YOU DON'T HAVE TO BUY IT IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT.
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Old August 3 2009, 04:59 AM   #94
theenglish
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Re: Superman and Batman to join forces with Islamic superheroes

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
theenglish wrote: View Post
CaptainCanada wrote: View Post
As for 'atheist', writers have always avoided ascribing religion to him like the plague lest it diminish his universality; if it's ever brought up, it's usually stated that he's big on Rao, the Kryptonians' god.
In fact, if one had to assign a religion to Superman, wouldn't he be jewish?
Why would he be Jewish? Because his creators were? Where's the logic in that?
My point being, in reaction to those who automatically assume that Supes and other major heroes are apparently Christian/Protestant and in accordance with American values, that that does not necessarily have to be the case. It is an opinion, not a canonical fact. To them I say please prove that Supes, in his original raised in an orphanage form (because apparently altering aspects of canonical characters is heresy), is not jewish.
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Old August 3 2009, 05:14 AM   #95
Nerys Myk
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Re: Superman and Batman to join forces with Islamic superheroes

[

I think changing those things changes the character from a solidly "middle American" person to a member of a fringe element of society and that the writing of said character would have to reflect that. Otherwise why bother?
YOu do realise that the character started as a "Super-Roosevelt". A very liberal and radical character (for it's time). He's also a reporter for East Coast newspaper. His "orgins" are hardly "Middle America"
Though He's not the first character to be sanitized after success.
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Old August 3 2009, 05:18 AM   #96
Nerys Myk
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Re: Superman and Batman to join forces with Islamic superheroes

theenglish wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
theenglish wrote: View Post

In fact, if one had to assign a religion to Superman, wouldn't he be jewish?
Why would he be Jewish? Because his creators were? Where's the logic in that?
My point being, in reaction to those who automatically assume that Supes and other major heroes are apparently Christian/Protestant and in accordance with American values, that that does not necessarily have to be the case. It is an opinion, not a canonical fact. To them I say please prove that Supes, in his original raised in an orphanage form (because apparently altering aspects of canonical characters is heresy), is not jewish.
insufficient data.
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Old August 3 2009, 05:22 AM   #97
theenglish
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Re: Superman and Batman to join forces with Islamic superheroes

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
theenglish wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Why would he be Jewish? Because his creators were? Where's the logic in that?
My point being, in reaction to those who automatically assume that Supes and other major heroes are apparently Christian/Protestant and in accordance with American values, that that does not necessarily have to be the case. It is an opinion, not a canonical fact. To them I say please prove that Supes, in his original raised in an orphanage form (because apparently altering aspects of canonical characters is heresy), is not jewish.
insufficient data.
Right, and therefore we cannot conclude that he (or any other heroes) are Christian unless it is specifically stated somewhere in their character profile.
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Old August 3 2009, 09:48 AM   #98
darkwing_duck1
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Re: Superman and Batman to join forces with Islamic superheroes

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Thats Magneto from X-Men #1. And pretty much every appearence till Claremmont decided to give him a "tragic" backstory.
Who, chronologically, had already had all those things happen to him. It isn't as if he were a nice guy and then turned evil AFTER some writer wrote the backstory. The backstory simply explains how the character got to be who we see in the comics.

I shouldn't have to explain this to you, if you understand basic writing concepts at all.

Again where are all these Black Furys? I mentioned 1602 becuse that was the first Alternate Fury I could recall,
Ultimate Nick Fury (comics)
Ultimate Avengers Nick Fury (dvds)
Wolverine and the X-men Nick Fury (show)
Live Action Movie Nick Fury (movies)

"Black Fury" is surplanting the original Nick Fury in the eyes and minds of the viewer/readership. Do you honestly expect the original Nick to show up ANYWHERE outside the 616 comics going forward?

All caps? Do you really think that helps you make your point? Or lends it more weight? Or does it make you look like a child throwing a tantrum?
No, it draws your attention to something you are obviously NOT reading because you keep trying to compare the re-engineering of core characters, which Galactus and his supporters favor with AUs and legacy characters.

Again you brought up Ultimate Nick as an example of changing a "core character." If you wnat to back way from that feel free.
See above.
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Old August 3 2009, 12:52 PM   #99
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Re: Superman and Batman to join forces with Islamic superheroes

Are not all those Nick Fury's you mention Alternate Universe versions of the character, which as you state earlier, is not what you are talking about?
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Old August 3 2009, 04:24 PM   #100
Nerys Myk
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Re: Superman and Batman to join forces with Islamic superheroes

darkwing_duck1 wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Thats Magneto from X-Men #1. And pretty much every appearence till Claremmont decided to give him a "tragic" backstory.
Who, chronologically, had already had all those things happen to him. It isn't as if he were a nice guy and then turned evil AFTER some writer wrote the backstory. The backstory simply explains how the character got to be who we see in the comics.

I shouldn't have to explain this to you, if you understand basic writing concepts at all.
In the biz those are called "retcons". THings shoe horned in after the fact. "Chronological" is a meaningless term when dealing with retcons. When X-Men #1 was written none of those had ever happened to Magneto. He was written as racist, megalomaniac terrorist. And that a writter would make such a character a Jewish Holocaust survivor bugs me. It strikes me a disrespectful

Again where are all these Black Furys? I mentioned 1602 becuse that was the first Alternate Fury I could recall,
Ultimate Nick Fury (comics)
Ultimate Avengers Nick Fury (dvds)
Based on the Ultimates. Having White Nick show up would be like Alan Scott being the GL in Super friends.
Wolverine and the X-men Nick Fury (show)
Live Action Movie Nick Fury (movies)
[/QUOTE]

I mention Movie Nick already.
"Black Fury" is surplanting the original Nick Fury in the eyes and minds of the viewer/readership. Do you honestly expect the original Nick to show up ANYWHERE outside the 616 comics going forward?
Sounds like what happen oin the Silver Age. the E-1 characters supplanted the Golden Age versions. Change happens.

All caps? Do you really think that helps you make your point? Or lends it more weight? Or does it make you look like a child throwing a tantrum?
No, it draws your attention to something you are obviously NOT reading because you keep trying to compare the re-engineering of core characters, which Galactus and his supporters favor with AUs and legacy characters
No I'm reading it, I just don't by your Chicken Little rant. "Shouting" it won't change that. Presenting a logical cognative arguement might though.

AUs? Alternate Universe? AUs are a great way of re-engineering characters while keeping the "core" version. DCs Silver age exploited that with great success. Ultimate Nick is from and Alternate Universe. So is Movie Nick and Animated Nick. When 616 Nick goes Black let me know. Better yet let me know when 616 Nick teams up with Ultimate Nick. I love those types of stories.

Again you brought up Ultimate Nick as an example of changing a "core character." If you wnat to back way from that feel free.
See above.
[/QUOTE]
The question remains.
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Old August 3 2009, 06:30 PM   #101
darkwing_duck1
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Re: Superman and Batman to join forces with Islamic superheroes

theenglish wrote: View Post
Are not all those Nick Fury's you mention Alternate Universe versions of the character, which as you state earlier, is not what you are talking about?
The Nick Fury situation is a case of ONLY the re-engineer being propagated forward. Do you honestly expect the white Fury to ever appear in LA movies or TV shows after this?
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Old August 3 2009, 07:36 PM   #102
Misfit Toy
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Re: Superman and Batman to join forces with Islamic superheroes

darkwing_duck1 wrote: View Post
theenglish wrote: View Post
Are not all those Nick Fury's you mention Alternate Universe versions of the character, which as you state earlier, is not what you are talking about?
The Nick Fury situation is a case of ONLY the re-engineer being propagated forward. Do you honestly expect the white Fury to ever appear in LA movies or TV shows after this?
You can put the blame for THAT squarely on the shoulders of David Hasslehoff.
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Old August 3 2009, 07:57 PM   #103
darkwing_duck1
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Re: Superman and Batman to join forces with Islamic superheroes

Misfit Toy wrote: View Post
darkwing_duck1 wrote: View Post
theenglish wrote: View Post
Are not all those Nick Fury's you mention Alternate Universe versions of the character, which as you state earlier, is not what you are talking about?
The Nick Fury situation is a case of ONLY the re-engineer being propagated forward. Do you honestly expect the white Fury to ever appear in LA movies or TV shows after this?
You can put the blame for THAT squarely on the shoulders of David Hasslehoff.
For a shoe-string budget film on a (at the time) "off brand" network, I thought the film was pretty good.
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Old August 5 2009, 06:29 AM   #104
Dusty Ayres
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Re: Superman and Batman to join forces with Islamic superheroes

darkwing_duck1 wrote: View Post
Dusty Ayres wrote: View Post
And as for 'good Muslim heroes' cleaning house on Al-Q or the Taliban; why should they have to? The story can be about both sets of heroes fighting an alien invasion-it doesn't necessarily have to have them fight the great American bogeymen just so that an audience of mostly American comic book fanboys can see the heroes kick the butts of said bogeymen from here to Pluto.
1) Thousands of dead Americans tell me that Al-Q and the Taliban are more than "the boogeyman".

2) To ONLY portray Muslem metas as "heroes" is an implicit denial of reality. By most estimates, the extremist wahabbi element of Islam amounts to ~10% of the total Muslem population. By that percentage, at least 10 (9.9) of the "99" should be villains.
So by that standard, we can have super-villains who are members of most of those right-wing Christofacist morons that make up about 50% of the American population, and that also participate in terrorism in the next issue of the Avengers or in this team-up book, too...
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Old August 5 2009, 12:12 PM   #105
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Re: Superman and Batman to join forces with Islamic superheroes

Dusty Ayres wrote: View Post
So by that standard, we can have super-villains who are members of most of those right-wing Christofacist morons that make up about 50% of the American population, and that also participate in terrorism in the next issue of the Avengers or in this team-up book, too...
The Purifiers in X-Men and its assorted spinoffs would fit that bill already.
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