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Old August 3 2009, 12:00 AM   #76
Misfit Toy
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Re: Superman and Batman to join forces with Islamic superheroes

darkwing_duck1 wrote: View Post
Yes, a gay, atheist, radical Superman is 100% interchangeable with the traditional values "truth, justice, and the American Way" Superman....
Gay, atheist, radical beliefs are included within the concept of "truth, justice and the American way".
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Old August 3 2009, 12:54 AM   #77
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Re: Superman and Batman to join forces with Islamic superheroes

darkwing_duck1 wrote: View Post
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Let's please take black and white out of the equation. You do understand that the comics you love was founded on that very principle, that white kids only could like and admire white male heroes that where just like them.
Your basis for this?
The fact that basically all superheroes created from the 1930s to the 1970s (and pretty much all the major ones to this day) were white (and overwhelmingly male)?

Not all children's heroes need to be of their race (non-white kids have been indeed idealizing Superman since he first appeared), but some should. Things like an absence of powerful and cool pop culture role models of one's own race/gender/whatever have a demonstrable effect.

You're correct about the Roman Empire, incidentally; its collapse was caused by longstanding internal problems (and large numbers of invading hordes that were, for the matter, pagan). Not to mention that ignores the survival of the Eastern Roman/Byzantine Empire, which was every bit (even more, perhaps) Christian than the western one. Of course, I rather doubt that that graph is meant to be taken seriously.
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Old August 3 2009, 02:37 AM   #78
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Re: Superman and Batman to join forces with Islamic superheroes

darkwing_duck1 wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Potayto Potahto. Religion, sexuality, ethnic background its all the same really.
Yes, a gay, atheist, radical Superman is 100% interchangeable with the traditional values "truth, justice, and the American Way" Superman....:rolleyes
Yes, since being one does not exclude the other.

Doesn't quite fit with the character as first presented.
Fits just fine, thank you very much. His original portrayal was as a bit of a swashbuckler overlying a very sensitive and troubled soul.
He was a sensitive swashbuckler/circus performer raise by a gypsy sorceress. No hint of any religious affilation out side of the occasional "Gott En Himmel!!!"



No, it's "I've seen my people all but obliterated by hate once. I'll sell my soul to the Devil if necessary to keep it from happening again." It's just a tiny baby step further from that to allowing his hate to overwhelm him and become the very thing he was fighting against.

It's that dynamic tensiion between well-intentioned (if hardline) champion of his people and fanaticism that makes Magneto more than a ranting "Doom clone".
Magneto was the guy who took the term "Homo Superior" literally. He was all about putting Homo Sapiens under the yoke of Homo Superior and Homo Superior under the yoke of Magneto. He was a champion of Magneto first and foremost.

The current 616 comics are the ONLY place where Nick is still white, and I wonder for how much longer. ALL other portrayals are of him as a black man.
Were else does Black Nick Fury appear? The 1602 version was white.

Thats no differnent than the E-2 Hawkman being human and the E-1 Hawkman being an alien. Different universe, different characters.
NOT what Galactus is talking about, as you have been told several times now. He is talking about taking the CORE character and re-engineering their basic aspects for no valid reason to increase "representation" of "minorities". NOT "alternate universe" NOT "legacy characters", the CORE official character.
Hey you brought up Ultimate Nick as an example of a character being changed. IIRC Ultimate Nick has been black from the get go and 616 Nick is still white. So like I said, what else you got? Do you also onject to Ultimate Wasp beeing Asian?

The Ultimate line is an alternate-universe. And Ultimate Nick isn't a legacy. Neither was the E-1 Hawkman, when first created. He was a re-engineered take on the concept, jut as Ulitmate Nick is.

So what CORE character has been changed?
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Old August 3 2009, 03:26 AM   #79
darkwing_duck1
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Re: Superman and Batman to join forces with Islamic superheroes

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
darkwing_duck1 wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Potayto Potahto. Religion, sexuality, ethnic background its all the same really.
Yes, a gay, atheist, radical Superman is 100% interchangeable with the traditional values "truth, justice, and the American Way" Superman....:rolleyes
Yes, since being one does not exclude the other.
If you really beleive that, there's no point arguing with you.

He was a sensitive swashbuckler/circus performer raise by a gypsy sorceress. No hint of any religious affilation out side of the occasional "Gott En Himmel!!!"
Explain how that PRECLUDES said affiliation.

Magneto was the guy who took the term "Homo Superior" literally. He was all about putting Homo Sapiens under the yoke of Homo Superior and Homo Superior under the yoke of Magneto. He was a champion of Magneto first and foremost.
That is the tragic "end state" Magneto. Without the life experiences of his youth (in the camp) and early adult life (with Magda), he would not have become that man.

Were else does Black Nick Fury appear? The 1602 version was white.
1602 was years ago. Contemporarily, only the 616 universe's Nick is white. All the other Nicks are portrayed as black.

Thats no differnent than the E-2 Hawkman being human and the E-1 Hawkman being an alien. Different universe, different characters.
NOT what Galactus is talking about, as you have been told several times now. He is talking about taking the CORE character and re-engineering their basic aspects for no valid reason to increase "representation" of "minorities". NOT "alternate universe" NOT "legacy characters", the CORE official character.
Hey you brought up Ultimate Nick as an example of a character being changed. IIRC Ultimate Nick has been black from the get go and 616 Nick is still white. So like I said, what else you got? Do you also onject to Ultimate Wasp beeing Asian? The Ultimate line is an alternate-universe. And Ultimate Nick isn't a legacy. Neither was the E-1 Hawkman, when first created. He was a re-engineered take on the concept, jut as Ulitmate Nick is.
No, because that is AU, WHICH IS NOT WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT...get that through your head. We are talking about changing CORE characters.

So what CORE character has been changed?
So far, none, but that isn't stopping Galactus and his ilk from pushing for it.
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Old August 3 2009, 03:38 AM   #80
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Re: Superman and Batman to join forces with Islamic superheroes

darkwing_duck1 wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
darkwing_duck1 wrote: View Post

Yes, a gay, atheist, radical Superman is 100% interchangeable with the traditional values "truth, justice, and the American Way" Superman....:rolleyes
Yes, since being one does not exclude the other.
If you really beleive that, there's no point arguing with you.
You don't think gay atheists believe in truth, justice, and the American way (not that they necessarily do, of course, but it hardly precludes it)?
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Old August 3 2009, 03:46 AM   #81
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Re: Superman and Batman to join forces with Islamic superheroes

CaptainCanada wrote: View Post
darkwing_duck1 wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Yes, since being one does not exclude the other.
If you really beleive that, there's no point arguing with you.
You don't think gay atheists believe in truth, justice, and the American way (not that they necessarily do, of course, but it hardly precludes it)?
Unlike Darkwing Duck, Superman believes that being radical, gay, and atheist (and Supes is arguably two out of the three himself) is not incompatible with T, J, and the AW.

(Of course, Superman's core character has been changed over the years because he was originally fond of spotting racist WWII slogans on a few comic book covers.)
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Old August 3 2009, 03:50 AM   #82
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Re: Superman and Batman to join forces with Islamic superheroes

CaptainCanada wrote: View Post
darkwing_duck1 wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Yes, since being one does not exclude the other.
If you really beleive that, there's no point arguing with you.
You don't think gay atheists believe in truth, justice, and the American way (not that they necessarily do, of course, but it hardly precludes it)?
I think changing those things changes the character from a solidly "middle American" person to a member of a fringe element of society and that the writing of said character would have to reflect that. Otherwise why bother?

Take the old Ellen Degeneres show. Once she "came out" (actor and character) the show went from being a mildly amusing character comedy to being a lesbian polemic every week.

David Gerrald's "Blood and Fire" script has the same problem, as produced by Phase II. Not only does he insert gay characters, but he writes extended scenes around them to push it right up in the viewers' face: "LOOK!!! GAY CHARACTERS!!!"
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Old August 3 2009, 03:54 AM   #83
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Re: Superman and Batman to join forces with Islamic superheroes

darkwing_duck1 wrote: View Post
So what CORE character has been changed?
So far, none, but that isn't stopping Galactus and his ilk from pushing for it.
What precisely do you mean by "his ilk"?
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Old August 3 2009, 04:00 AM   #84
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Re: Superman and Batman to join forces with Islamic superheroes

Well, on the subject of making Superman gay (I'm...still not sure how this thread arrived at this discussion), that would, on a more practical level, impede some fairly important stuff in his mythos, like Lois Lane.

As for 'atheist', writers have always avoided ascribing religion to him like the plague lest it diminish his universality; if it's ever brought up, it's usually stated that he's big on Rao, the Kryptonians' god.

On the earlier discussion of Nick Fury, most comics appearances of his that I've seen have been of the old-model Nick. Apart from The Ultimates (and its DTV adaptations) (and also the films, where they jumped at the chance to get Samuel L. Jackson), he made a one-shot appearance in Wolverine and the X-Men where he was sort of a cross between the two (black, but with 616 Nick's hairstyle, etc). Given the choice between different versions of the character (choices all adaptations have to make with characters who have a lot of iterations), there's a certain preference for putting in a prominent person of colour (see also the current Spectacular Spider-Man, where they've changed up a few characters' race, probably most notably Liz).
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Old August 3 2009, 04:06 AM   #85
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Re: Superman and Batman to join forces with Islamic superheroes

CaptainCanada wrote: View Post
As for 'atheist', writers have always avoided ascribing religion to him like the plague lest it diminish his universality; if it's ever brought up, it's usually stated that he's big on Rao, the Kryptonians' god.
In fact, if one had to assign a religion to Superman, wouldn't he be jewish?
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Old August 3 2009, 04:13 AM   #86
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Re: Superman and Batman to join forces with Islamic superheroes

theenglish wrote: View Post
CaptainCanada wrote: View Post
As for 'atheist', writers have always avoided ascribing religion to him like the plague lest it diminish his universality; if it's ever brought up, it's usually stated that he's big on Rao, the Kryptonians' god.
In fact, if one had to assign a religion to Superman, wouldn't he be jewish?
No; if he's a member of an earthbound religion, it'd come from the Kents, who pretty much scream small-town American Protestant.

There really aren't that many Jewish characters in comics, compared with what you'd expect given that Jews basically ran the show from the late '30s until the late '60s. Of course, that was a different atmosphere, when 'Stanley Martin Lieber' had to go by 'Stan Lee'. Nowadays there's a couple: the Thing (who was always ambiguously Jewish, though they only recently confirmed it), Kitty Pryde (whose creators weren't Jewish), Magneto (who is usually more ethnically Jewish than religiously).

Religion in comics tends to focus either on various Christian denominations or madeup/mythological ones that nobody (or few people) can take issue with (like Wonder Woman's Graeco-Roman pantheon, the various magic religions, etc.). Since most writers come from a generically Christian background, they tend to avoid religions they aren't as familiar with lest they get it wrong. As stated, Jews are thin on the ground (ironically, the Jewish near-monopoly on the Big Two broke up just when it became permissible to write about such things), there are only a handful of Muslims (Dust and Excalibur at Marvel are the only two that I can think of to have recently been on a main cast), even fewer easterners (Green Arrow II is a Buddhist, that's about all that comes easily to mind).
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Old August 3 2009, 04:13 AM   #87
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Re: Superman and Batman to join forces with Islamic superheroes

Misfit Toy wrote: View Post
darkwing_duck1 wrote: View Post
So what CORE character has been changed?
So far, none, but that isn't stopping Galactus and his ilk from pushing for it.
What precisely do you mean by "his ilk"?
Can't wait for this answer. I am still trying to see where I said that was what I wanted to do. Take for instance GI Joe and Ripcord. Don't get that change at all especially since GI Joe was one of the most diverse groups in the 80's and there were plenty of black characters to chose from as a friend.

What I said was that you could make changes and it would not take away from anything. But just like this group of heroes, creating orginal characters is my preferred method.
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Old August 3 2009, 04:17 AM   #88
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Re: Superman and Batman to join forces with Islamic superheroes

CaptainCanada wrote: View Post
theenglish wrote: View Post
CaptainCanada wrote: View Post
As for 'atheist', writers have always avoided ascribing religion to him like the plague lest it diminish his universality; if it's ever brought up, it's usually stated that he's big on Rao, the Kryptonians' god.
In fact, if one had to assign a religion to Superman, wouldn't he be jewish?
No; if he's a member of an earthbound religion, it'd come from the Kents, who pretty much scream small-town American Protestant.
That would be yet another change to the core character though. The Kents didn't come along until afterward. Prior to that he would definitely have been jewish like Peter Parker and the Fantastic Four.
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Old August 3 2009, 04:20 AM   #89
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Re: Superman and Batman to join forces with Islamic superheroes

Galactus wrote: View Post
Misfit Toy wrote: View Post
darkwing_duck1 wrote: View Post
So far, none, but that isn't stopping Galactus and his ilk from pushing for it.
What precisely do you mean by "his ilk"?
Can't wait for this answer. I am still trying to see where I said that was what I wanted to do. Take for instance GI Joe and Ripcord. Don't get that change at all especially since GI Joe was one of the most diverse groups in the 80's and there were plenty of black characters to chose from as a friend.

What I said was that you could make changes and it would not take away from anything. But just like this group of heroes, creating orginal characters is my preferred method.
By ilk I mean those sharing is misguided philosophy.
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Old August 3 2009, 04:26 AM   #90
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Re: Superman and Batman to join forces with Islamic superheroes

darkwing_duck1 wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
darkwing_duck1 wrote: View Post

Yes, a gay, atheist, radical Superman is 100% interchangeable with the traditional values "truth, justice, and the American Way" Superman....:rolleyes
Yes, since being one does not exclude the other.
If you really beleive that, there's no point arguing with you.
The America I believe in was found on the proposition that all men are created equal. Therefore a radical, gay, atheist Superman could stand for truth, justice and the American way. These are not the sole purview of straights, the religious and reactionaries.


He was a sensitive swashbuckler/circus performer raise by a gypsy sorceress. No hint of any religious affilation out side of the occasional "Gott En Himmel!!!"
Explain how that PRECLUDES said affiliation.
Seems odd that a man raised by gypsy sorceress, who takes the Lords name in vain would be a devout Christian. It was pretty much out of the blue. Sort of like Bruce Wayne saying he was gay



That is the tragic "end state" Magneto. Without the life experiences of his youth (in the camp) and early adult life (with Magda), he would not have become that man.
Thats Magneto from X-Men #1. And pretty much every appearence till Claremmont decided to give him a "tragic" backstory.



1602 was years ago. Contemporarily, only the 616 universe's Nick is white. All the other Nicks are portrayed as black.
Again where are all these Black Furys? I mentioned 1602 becuse that was the first Alternate Fury I could recall,


Hey you brought up Ultimate Nick as an example of a character being changed. IIRC Ultimate Nick has been black from the get go and 616 Nick is still white. So like I said, what else you got? Do you also onject to Ultimate Wasp beeing Asian? The Ultimate line is an alternate-universe. And Ultimate Nick isn't a legacy. Neither was the E-1 Hawkman, when first created. He was a re-engineered take on the concept, jut as Ulitmate Nick is.
No, because that is AU, WHICH IS NOT WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT...get that through your head. We are talking about changing CORE characters.
All caps? Do you really think that helps you make your point? Or lends it more weight? Or does it make you look like a child throwing a tantrum?

Again you brought up Ultimate Nick as an example of changing a "core character." If you wnat to back way from that feel free.

So what CORE character has been changed?
So far, none, but that isn't stopping Galactus and his ilk from pushing for it.
His "ilk"? Dude, its just comic books.
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