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Old August 2 2009, 02:59 PM   #61
Nerys Myk
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Re: Superman and Batman to join forces with Islamic superheroes

Galactus wrote: View Post
As has already been pointed out. All of the Silver Age heroes were changed into different people. Except their race was not changed. So you are basically saying that if you like the change then it is not fundamental, but if you dislike it then it is. So again it seems like there just is no room in your comic world for any new characters who are diverse and no changes to the existing ones either. So tough luck to everybody that does not think like you.

For the record changing a character drastically would not be my first choice but when you are dealing with DC they basically got no choice because almost all their heroes are white males. I am glad that started making the effort to even things out. And then we have to be realistic also in the fact that there are only so projects out there and you have to get folks in them somehow.

When I see folks that complain about existing diverse heroes, complain about new diverse heroes and complain about changing existing heroes to make diverse heroes, then I don't see anything but someone not wanting any type of diversity.
I was thinking the same thing. The change is good whne you agree with it. Kurt Wagner/Christian is good. Bruce Wayne/Gay is Bad. Eric Lensher/Jew is good. Ultimate Nick Fury/Black is bad.

But it would change who Bruce Wayne is. That's the point.
Is Bruce Wayne defined by his sexuality? Or is he defined by that one night after the movies? It was that latter that drove him to the peak of mental and physical perfection and made him use those skills to fight crime.

I'm not saying Bruce Wayne should be be Gay, but he could be. An rich, idle, gay playboy is an even less likely suspect to be Batman.
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Old August 2 2009, 03:09 PM   #62
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Re: Superman and Batman to join forces with Islamic superheroes

I was defending religion so much as the right to practice religion. What I was objecting to were the ignorant comments earlier in the thread, which assumed Islam was synonomous with suicide bombings, and anti-jewish sentiments.
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Old August 2 2009, 05:58 PM   #63
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Re: Superman and Batman to join forces with Islamic superheroes

darkwing_duck1 wrote: View Post
Misfit Toy wrote: View Post
darkwing_duck1 wrote: View Post

I didn't say it shouldn't be published. I said I was unimpressed by it.
You said that there may be something "wrong". You suggested that undue influence was brought to bear in order to get it published. You said it "smacks of PC PR." I'm sure you meant that it should be published.
They have every right to publish it.

I have every right to question their motives for doing so.

No more, no less.
It's a stretch, but I'm going to go with "to make money".
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Old August 2 2009, 07:53 PM   #64
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Re: Superman and Batman to join forces with Islamic superheroes

darkwing_duck1 wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post

All those characters are "re-engineered". The Silver Age was all bout "re-engineering." Any character created before 1986 probably was "re-engineered" when it came to religion, because such thing wer not part of the characters in the 40s, 50s or even the 60s. Dave Cockrum and Len Wein had no idea Nightcrawler was a Catholic. The idea that Magneto was a Jew never crossed Stan Lee and Jack Kirby's minds.
We aren't talking about re-jiggering details about the planet Krypton, or minutiae like that. We are talking about fundamental aspects of the identity of the character.
I am definitely a more "casual" comic book reader than a majority of the people on this thread. But I really disagree with you, darkwing duck1 on this point. Several crises changed fundamental aspects of several characters. *cough* Power Girl / Super Girl *cough*. What about Superboy? That's one way the comic book publishers have of changing the status quo. Superman gets a mullet, superman gets a blue costume (I think costumes are very intrinsic to this medium - after all it's all about costumed heroes).

I am in the process of reading Essential Avengers Vol 2 and Hank Pym, in the space of this single collection (maybe 20 different issues?), has changed from Giant-Man to Goliath to Ant-Man - that is also a very specific identity question. Later on, he will even turn into a wife beater. Those are pretty closely linked to the identity of him as a comic book superhero.

What you are suggesting by limiting the discussion to only a superhero's sex, race, sexual preference & religion is limiting the life-changing experiences that superheroes get into, to a small set of items that *you* detest.

Which is fine. However, allowing other character changes and not letting people change the ones *you* don't want to is a personal preference. What I suggest we focus on is whether they did it "right" - did they handle the thing "right"? eg. did they handle a character who is now of a different race in a compelling manner or was it boring?
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Old August 2 2009, 08:53 PM   #65
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Re: Superman and Batman to join forces with Islamic superheroes

I like how this thread went OT to cover for the fact that some people just don't want DC Superheroes interacting with Arabic Superheroes.
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Old August 2 2009, 09:15 PM   #66
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Re: Superman and Batman to join forces with Islamic superheroes

Ensign_Redshirt wrote: View Post
Mr. Adventure wrote: View Post
I bet this is the most popular character.
Actually, Darr the Afflicter is an American character.
Too funny.
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Old August 2 2009, 10:12 PM   #67
Ensign_Redshirt
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Re: Superman and Batman to join forces with Islamic superheroes

TheBrew wrote: View Post
I like how this thread went OT to cover for the fact that some people just don't want DC Superheroes interacting with Arabic Superheroes.
And this outbreak of Islamophobia is particularly ironic considering that neither the people behind "The 99" nor the characters in that comic are purely Islamic/Arabic to begin with.


THE TEAM BEHIND THE 99

Dr. Naif Al-Mutawa is the founder and CEO of Teshkeel Media Group. A PhD in clinical psychology and former newspaper columnist, Dr. Al-Mutawa was presented with a UNESCO prize for children's literature for his first children's book, which later extended into a series.

Fabian Nicieza, writer of THE 99, has been a well-known figure in the American comic book industry for over 20 years. Fabian is best-known for his work on top-selling Marvel titles as X-Men, X-Force, New Warriors, Cable, Deadpool and New Thunderbolts.

Dan Panosian began his career in New York drawing for Marvel Comics titles such as X-Men, Spider-Man, Hulk, Captain America and DC Comics titles such as The Flash, Green Lantern and Batman. He also lent his skills to Image Comics' Spawn, Prophet and Pitt. From there, Dan branched out into commercial art and movie character design.

John McCrea has worked for Marvel, DC, Wildstorm, 2000AD, Dark Horse and CrossGen. McCrea won a prestigious Eisner award in 1999 for his work on DC Comics Hitman. He has also drawn for Hulk, Spider-Man, Demon, Superboy, Teen Titans, Judge Dredd, Batman, Wonder Woman, Punisher and Star Wars Tales.

Monica Kubina, colourist for THE 99, brings her own unique mix of talent, style and experience to the table. Born in Tehran, Iran, she was raised by Armenian, artist parents who had studied in Florence, Italy.
http://www.the99.org/page-2,ckl


It's basically an Islamic mythology-inspired comic book series about a half-Islamic/half-Western group of superheroes which is primarily written and drawed by American artists, gets published by a Kuwaiti company, and is intended for an Arabic readership. In other words, it was all hideously PC even before the DC superheroes were brought in for a crossover.

Last edited by Ensign_Redshirt; August 2 2009 at 10:29 PM.
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Old August 2 2009, 10:52 PM   #68
darkwing_duck1
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Re: Superman and Batman to join forces with Islamic superheroes

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Potayto Potahto. Religion, sexuality, ethnic background its all the same really.
Yes, a gay, atheist, radical Superman is 100% interchangeable with the traditional values "truth, justice, and the American Way" Superman....

Doesn't quite fit with the character as first presented.
Fits just fine, thank you very much. His original portrayal was as a bit of a swashbuckler overlying a very sensitive and troubled soul.

Doesnt make sense to me. "Hitler made me act like Hitler." It made him inro Dr Doom-lite. (IIRC it was because Claremont couldn't use Doom)
No, it's "I've seen my people all but obliterated by hate once. I'll sell my soul to the Devil if necessary to keep it from happening again." It's just a tiny baby step further from that to allowing his hate to overwhelm him and become the very thing he was fighting against.

It's that dynamic tensiion between well-intentioned (if hardline) champion of his people and fanaticism that makes Magneto more than a ranting "Doom clone".



Hmm. I think I already said that.

[QUOTE]
Out of curiousity how many comicbook characters have had their race or sexuality "re-engineered"?
Last time I checked Nick Fury in the Marvel U was still white. The Sam Jackson Nick is in the Ulitmate Universe and the movies.
The current 616 comics are the ONLY place where Nick is still white, and I wonder for how much longer. ALL other portrayals are of him as a black man.

Thats no differnent than the E-2 Hawkman being human and the E-1 Hawkman being an alien. Different universe, different characters.
NOT what Galactus is talking about, as you have been told several times now. He is talking about taking the CORE character and re-engineering their basic aspects for no valid reason to increase "representation" of "minorities". NOT "alternate universe" NOT "legacy characters", the CORE official character.
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Old August 2 2009, 11:01 PM   #69
darkwing_duck1
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Re: Superman and Batman to join forces with Islamic superheroes

Galactus wrote: View Post
So again it seems like there just is no room in your comic world for any new characters who are diverse and no changes to the existing ones either. So tough luck to everybody that does not think like you.
Never have I said that. In fact I said making NEW characters was the way to introduce your "diversity" if it must be introduced at all.

Frankly, I detest the notion that a person's heroes must be of the same race/ethnicity/etc of themselves to begin with. The idea that a black can only look up to black heroes is racist and insulting at it's core.

For the record changing a character drastically would not be my first choice but when you are dealing with DC they basically got no choice because almost all their heroes are white males.
See above.
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Old August 2 2009, 11:05 PM   #70
darkwing_duck1
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Re: Superman and Batman to join forces with Islamic superheroes

TheMasterOfOrion wrote: View Post
theenglish wrote: View Post

I am, however, genuinely concerned about the blatant ignorance of the Middle East coming from some posters on this board. Islam has as rich a cultural history and a myriad of interpretations and followers as Christianity does
ALL RELIGION In My Not So Humble Opinion, all religion Judaism, Catholicism, Buddhism, Mohammedism (the two forms of Islam)....its all a bunch of BullShit

but if you want to go ahead and keep defending Muslim faith then fine.

Everyone's entitled to their opinion and each to their own
Mine is agnosticism, a philosophy based more on logic than superstition


Calling Bullshit on your Bullshit.

Christianity had NOTHING to do with the collapse of the Roman Imperial System, it simply became too big to govern with the weak and corrupt power center that Rome had become.

It was the efforts of Chrisitian monks that PRESERVED the writings of the classic authors of the Ancient World to the extent that they survived until the Renaissance.

Furthermore, it was those self-same monks who tended to produce scholars that made important breakthroughs in maths and science in those days.
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Old August 2 2009, 11:08 PM   #71
darkwing_duck1
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Re: Superman and Batman to join forces with Islamic superheroes

Ensign_Redshirt wrote: View Post
Mr. Adventure wrote: View Post

I bet this is the most popular character.
Actually, Darr the Afflicter is an American character.


John Weller was a promising young man with a bright future ahead of him, who belonged to a supportive family. He lost it all in a second when a drunk driver collided with his car a few years ago, killing his family and paralysing John from the waist down. After spending months rehabilitating at the hospital, John became disillusioned and bitter. Although the drunk driver's family paid for everything John needed, his anger continued to festeranger towards himself and the kind of irresponsibility that led to his tragedy.

John visited a 'holistic' healer who gave him a special stone, suggesting that the pretty gem would help John heal his scarred psyche. John was skeptical, but after the visit, he found himself inexplicably empowered with the ability to cause physical harm just by focusing his hatred on living target, human or animal. He discovered this when he attended the trial of the drunk driver who had hit him. The driver's family was powerful, and his sentence was light. From the wheelchair where John was doomed to spend his days, he seethed with anger at the injustice. As the driver left the courtroom, he clutched his head and released a tremendous scream, collapsing from a seizure that left him catatonic.

John reveled in his new power using it to punish anyone who was involved in a vehicular homicide, whether they had done their time or not, and regardless of their intent. John was located by Dr. Ramzi and his team after news of the St Louis "painwave" hit the newspapers.
http://www.the99.org/art-36-33-Articles-1-9-325,ckl
Gee, fancy that...depicting an American as bitter and mentally unballanced and making a villain out of him in an Arab comic...
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Old August 2 2009, 11:17 PM   #72
Ensign_Redshirt
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Re: Superman and Batman to join forces with Islamic superheroes

darkwing_duck1 wrote: View Post
Gee, fancy that...depicting an American as bitter and mentally unballanced and making a villain out of him in an Arab comic...
Eh, he's not a villain, but one of the heroes, albeit one with a darker history... until he was found by the other "99".


Maybe the other American team member meets with your approval?:

Abena Liza Dagate is an African American woman with an obsessive personality that compels her to organize her surroundings to maddening degrees of order. Liza has a hard time walking through any given day. When she was in school, she'd constantly complain about any inefficiencies she'd see in teacher's programs or even in the school cafeteria's serving method.

Liza left the school system and had difficulty with her career because her condition left her unable to compromise. Liza is tormented day and night by her mind. She goes to work as a junior assistant for a local private investigator so she can at least play a role in cleaning up her neighborhood. Liza begins to see patterns in a long line of drugs and arms busts that point her to a larger operation and a big mind behind it. Her supervisor passes Liza's observations onto the police. At first, there is department-wide skepticism, but then the police make a series of extra seizures of larger value thanks to Liza abilities. Nevertheless, the mastermind behind everything continues to elude them.

The extra seizures make Liza feel so much better as she is finally able to put her maddening condition to a powerful use. The police begin to rely on her skills. In a meeting with the police chief, Liza admires a pretty stone on his desk. He gives it to herhe'd found it on the beach in the Caribbean a few years ago. The gem's powers relieve her mental anguish and still her mind. They allow her to exert control over her obsessions but also multiply her powers of intuition a hundredfold. So now when she needs to bring order to chaos she goes into a painful maddening state from overusing her powers. Soon her powers of organisation extend to code-breaking and anything else that relies on patterns.

The 99 offer Liza a chance to fight against this mastermind villain who the series will eventually identify as Rughal.

Last edited by Ensign_Redshirt; August 2 2009 at 11:28 PM.
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Old August 2 2009, 11:18 PM   #73
Galactus
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Re: Superman and Batman to join forces with Islamic superheroes

darkwing_duck1 wrote: View Post
......... making NEW characters was the way to introduce your "diversity" if it must be introduced at all.
I will let you explain this part of your post to me cause you follow it up with this........
Frankly, I detest the notion that a person's heroes must be of the same race/ethnicity/etc of themselves to begin with. The idea that a black can only look up to black heroes is racist and insulting at it's core.
Let's please take black and white out of the equation. You do understand that the comics you love was founded on that very principle, that white kids only could like and admire white male heroes that where just like them. So since you agree that this is wrong, tell me how in today's world we should fix the errors of the past. Keep in mind you have to be realistic like I said before. There is only room for so many successful heroes in comics, books, movies, etc so somethings have to be changed in order for comics to not be racists as you said they were if there is only one race out there to look up to.
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Old August 2 2009, 11:42 PM   #74
darkwing_duck1
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Re: Superman and Batman to join forces with Islamic superheroes

Galactus wrote: View Post
Let's please take black and white out of the equation. You do understand that the comics you love was founded on that very principle, that white kids only could like and admire white male heroes that where just like them.
Your basis for this?
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Old August 2 2009, 11:46 PM   #75
darkwing_duck1
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Re: Superman and Batman to join forces with Islamic superheroes

Oh, and before TheMasterOfOrion can start screeching and flinging crap about sources:

http://www.bede.org.uk/historyessays.htm#science

http://www.bede.org.uk/sciencehistory.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_in_the_Middle_Ages

http://listverse.com/2008/06/09/top-...were-not-dark/
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