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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old July 13 2009, 05:01 AM   #1
Captrek
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Curzon’s big secret (from Facets)

In “Playing God” and again in “Facets,” Jadzia Dax says she doesn’t know why Curzon Dax washed Jadzia out of the Trill initiate program. Sisko suggests that she ask Curzon that question during her zhian’tara. Then Curzon-Odo reveals the big secret, that Curzon Dax had been in love with Jadzia.

Why didn’t Jadzia Dax know that? Aren’t Curzon Dax’s memories a part of Jadzia Dax? She remembered exactly how Curzon Dax felt about Benjamin Sisko, so why didn’t she remember how Curzon Dax felt about Jadzia? How is it that Curzon-Odo had access to Curzon memories that Jadzia Dax never had access to?
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Old July 13 2009, 05:17 AM   #2
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Re: Curzon’s big secret (from Facets)

Perhaps she blocked it out?
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Old July 13 2009, 05:21 AM   #3
Too Much Fun
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Re: Curzon’s big secret (from Facets)

Well she does have the memories of the past hosts, but I'm not sure if that means she was aware of all their feelings and thoughts. I mean it's a lot to ask a person to retain all the memories of so many different people, but all their thoughts and feelings too? I think that's a bit too much for one person to have rattling around in their head at the same time. Regarding the Sisko and Curzon friendship, most of the time she seemed to talk about specific memories they shared rather that Curzon's feelings towards him.
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Old July 13 2009, 05:54 AM   #4
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Re: Curzon’s big secret (from Facets)

I always took it that the symbiont could hide certain things from the host and, as shown in season three, even itself if the situation warranted it. Maybe knowing that Curzon was in love with her would have been a strain on Jadzia or caused a problem to the symbiont (similar to why Joran's history had been eliminated from Dax).
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Old July 13 2009, 11:58 PM   #5
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Re: Curzon’s big secret (from Facets)

nx1701g wrote: View Post
I always took it that the symbiont could hide certain things from the host and, as shown in season three, even itself if the situation warranted it. Maybe knowing that Curzon was in love with her would have been a strain on Jadzia or caused a problem to the symbiont (similar to why Joran's history had been eliminated from Dax).
That makes the most sense to me, especially in the greater context of the zhin'tara - if the host and the symbiont are aware of all of each other's memories, why exactly do they need to have conversations with the previous hosts? Don't they already know exactly what the previous hosts would say and think, how they felt? But if the symbiont is capable of specifically withholding specific information, then that gives a specific reason for the whole process.

Frankly, though, I'm a little dubious about the whole process - Trill mysticism seems a little out of place. (He says about a show about BAJORAN mysticism. Yes, I'm well aware of my hypocrisy, thank you.)
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Old July 25 2009, 07:11 AM   #6
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Re: Curzon’s big secret (from Facets)

Too Much Fun wrote: View Post
Well she does have the memories of the past hosts, but I'm not sure if that means she was aware of all their feelings and thoughts. I mean it's a lot to ask a person to retain all the memories of so many different people, but all their thoughts and feelings too? I think that's a bit too much for one person to have rattling around in their head at the same time. Regarding the Sisko and Curzon friendship, most of the time she seemed to talk about specific memories they shared rather that Curzon's feelings towards him.
And yet in “Rejoined,” Jadzia not only remembers but feels Torias Dax’s love for the Kahn symbiont so intensely that she’s willing to sacrifice the lives of both symbionts just to be reunited.

nx1701g wrote: View Post
I always took it that the symbiont could hide certain things from the host and, as shown in season three, even itself if the situation warranted it. Maybe knowing that Curzon was in love with her would have been a strain on Jadzia or caused a problem to the symbiont (similar to why Joran's history had been eliminated from Dax).
In that case, Dax and Kahn should have hidden their love for each other (or at least the degree of intensity of that love), given the threat such intense feelings can pose to the lives of the symbionts. Why would the Dax symbiont hide Curzon’s love, which was kind of awkward, but not Torias’s love, which could threaten Dax’s continued existence?
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Old July 25 2009, 07:44 AM   #7
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Re: Curzon’s big secret (from Facets)

The legit answer to the question in the OP: another writing fubar, of which DS9 has plenty. Obviously one of the drawbacks that they made most of it up as they went along and sometimes didn't bother to remember things that they had previously written.

Good job noticing and pointing this one out, captrek.
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Old July 25 2009, 11:05 AM   #8
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Re: Curzon’s big secret (from Facets)

Navaros wrote: View Post
The legit answer to the question in the OP: another writing fubar, of which DS9 has plenty. Obviously one of the drawbacks that they made most of it up as they went along and sometimes didn't bother to remember things that they had previously written.
Does nobody notice the inconsistencies, or do they just not give a Flax? The example we’re talking about seems way too obvious to have slipped by everyone.
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Old July 25 2009, 03:42 PM   #9
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Re: Curzon’s big secret (from Facets)

Good points, cap. The only explanation I can think of aside from the one Navaros provided is that maybe the host itself (rather than the symbiont/slug) can actually choose to withhold certain feelings from its successors. This would explain why the ritual of communicating with past hosts is necessary at all. What's the point if the new host already knows everything the past hosts felt and did?

Torias may have been aware that his feelings for his wife could negatively affect future hosts, but maybe he never took that into consideration. And even if he did, it's possible he just didn't want to withhold them from his successors because he was too proud of those feelings to bury them. Maybe he just really loved his wife and didn't want to hide that, regardless of the possible consequences.

Also, it takes a lot of foresight to think, "I better not let my new host know about these feelings, just in case he or she comes into contact with my wife's new host someday". I could easily see Torias overlooking that, especially since he's always been identified as the most nervous, awkward, clumsy, and reckless of Dax's hosts.
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Old July 25 2009, 04:52 PM   #10
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Re: Curzon’s big secret (from Facets)

captrek wrote: View Post
nx1701g wrote: View Post
I always took it that the symbiont could hide certain things from the host and, as shown in season three, even itself if the situation warranted it. Maybe knowing that Curzon was in love with her would have been a strain on Jadzia or caused a problem to the symbiont (similar to why Joran's history had been eliminated from Dax).
In that case, Dax and Kahn should have hidden their love for each other (or at least the degree of intensity of that love), given the threat such intense feelings can pose to the lives of the symbionts. Why would the Dax symbiont hide Curzon’s love, which was kind of awkward, but not Torias’s love, which could threaten Dax’s continued existence?
In many ways the situations were entirely different.

Curzon/Jadzia: This could have been a strain on the symbiont just as much, but it was different because the symbiont itself may not have been involved with the feelings being felt. Curzon himself seemed to be in love with Jadzia, not Dax as being in love with her.

Dax/Kahn: I see this more along the lines of they'd spent so much time together that the symbionts had fallen in love with each other just the same way that the people had. When Torias died and Dax moved on it was a strain on the symbionts and being put back together caused old feelings to resurface that were dangerous to the symbiont.
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Old July 25 2009, 11:26 PM   #11
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Re: Curzon’s big secret (from Facets)

Too Much Fun wrote: View Post
Also, it takes a lot of foresight to think, "I better not let my new host know about these feelings, just in case he or she comes into contact with my wife's new host someday".
Not really, unless you think that Jadzia Dax and Lenara Kahn are the first Trills to encounter that situation. One would think that it has become common sense among joined Trills. It’s a topic that should be covered in the initiate program. If you have romantic feelings for another joined Trill that are so intense that you won’t be able to control yourselves if you meet again in future hosts, those feelings need to be suppressed, or at least dampened, for the safety of the symbiont. And furthermore, avoid contact with the object of your affections. Jadzia was given the opportunity to avoid this situation, and it should have been drilled into her head that avoiding the situation was exactly what she was required to do.

Last edited by Captrek; July 25 2009 at 11:48 PM.
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Old July 26 2009, 11:08 PM   #12
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Re: Curzon’s big secret (from Facets)

It always seemed totally pointless and arbitrary that Trills weren't allowed to reassociate with previous hosts' romantic partners. Especially the OR ELSE Trill society tacked on.

Does the Federation Charter not guide these people or something? Why can't anyone say, "Screw you, I'm starting my own cave full of slugs, and under my rules, anybody can do anybody." Dax and Kahn could have started it. Whenever they had both died, their children could take care of the slugs in a slugarium, breed them, and give the progenitors to new hosts, probably fellow Trill dissidents who'd jump at the chance (or even the children themselves, as they'd be de facto Trill dissidents themselves!). Either way, the new hosts would take over slug care, until a new Trill counterculture had formed.

How has that not happened already? The only answer seems to be the force of law.

I mean, yeah, I get that it was allegory. But a reading of the episode on its face paints a disturbing picture of both Trill society and the limits of the Federation's powers.
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