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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old June 18 2009, 01:57 AM   #16
Captrek
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Re: WTF?! moment from "Vortex"

flemm wrote: View Post
To be scandalized by Odo being knocked out, we have to assume that the decentralized anatomy of the shapeshifter removes the "weakspot" of the head, but what if the opposite is true? What if the weakspot is everywhere on a changeling taken by surprise? In other words, perhaps a changeling is hyper-vulnerable and sensitive by nature, and his ability to rapidly adapt to an attack or change form is his only defense.
That would have been fine, had the character been conceived that way and consistently handled that way.
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Old June 18 2009, 02:13 AM   #17
MeanJoePhaser
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Re: WTF?! moment from "Vortex"

Photon wrote: View Post
And a wTF by extension was in Invasive Procedures where Mahreel, (Verad's g/f) absolutely kicks Kira's ass all over Ops-freakin' beatdown and then, then Kira kicks yet ANOTHER Klingon's ass-T'Kar (played by Tim Russ, aka 2Vok)
Kira's only great at kicking male ass...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYMaglfnuso
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Old June 18 2009, 02:42 AM   #18
Navaros
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Re: WTF?! moment from "Vortex"

AdmiralGarak wrote: View Post
Seriously. It's implausible to think a Klingon could kill Odo with a sword. But, since the writers purposefully avoided going into detail about the mystical mass-altering magical morphing security guard's anatomy when he's in humanoid form, it's not impossible. The director/writers probably just went with which weapon looked better.
Actually, it is impossible, as proven in the episode Chimera. The only reason they were able to try to put Laas on trial (which btw, is in and of itself another ludicrous plot contrivance...Klingons wanting a trial for a death regarding a fight they started...) was because everyone knew it was impossible for a changeling to die or any any way be harmed from a bladed weapon.

AdmiralGarak wrote: View Post

And Photon, condemning the entire series as having FUBARs and lazy writing because of something as minor as Odo getting cold-cocked in an early episode is a tad melodramatic. And thinking that giving DS9 Star Trek XI treatment would reduce plot inconsistencies is utterly laughable. DS9 is thousands of times more consistent than that movie, entertaining though it may be.
Photon wasn't condemning the whole series, rather what he is saying is that all the fight scenes in the series could have been thought-out and executed much better; which indeed they could have.

I don't think he was meaning to compare Trek XI's (lack of) quality to DS9 either. I think he just meant if there is a DS9 movie, then he wants the fight scenes improved for it.

Last edited by Navaros; June 18 2009 at 03:01 AM.
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Old June 18 2009, 03:26 AM   #19
flemm
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Re: WTF?! moment from "Vortex"

Navaros wrote: View Post
which btw, is in and of itself another ludicrous plot contrivance...Klingons wanting a trial for a death regarding a fight they started...
The above really doesn't do justice to how this event is handled in the episode. The Klingons claim that Laas provoked them, and there are witnesses that support this point of view.

Odo claims this point of view is absurd, of course, and that the whole incident is an example of prejudice against changelings. It is. And we are meant to sympathize with that point of view, but it is perfectly plausible that passers-by on the promenade might feel "menaced" by a changeling shapeshifting ostentatiously during a war with the Dominion, and be swayed by their prejudice to support the Klingon point of view.

In Odo's words: "They are only doing this because he is a changeling."
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Old June 18 2009, 03:37 AM   #20
flemm
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Re: WTF?! moment from "Vortex"

Navaros wrote: View Post
Actually, it is impossible, as proven in the episode Chimera.
Well, it doesn't really contradict my reasoning above, since Laas is an extremely experienced shapeshifter and was not at all surprised by the Klingon's attack.

The changelings were never meant to be invulnerable and unkillable powerhouses. The writers state this explicitly, and the way they write Odo and the Founders for seven seasons makes this clear.

I think it's safe to say they would not have written a scene like Laas' fight with the Klingon in the early going, when they were concerned about Odo seeming too powerful. In season 7, this is no longer a concern.

One thing that is perfectly consistent throughout is the following: the changelings fear the solids and have been persecuted by them for eons. How could this be if the changelings cannot be harmed by any conventional means?

From the beginning, we have been assuming in this thread that the two examples mentioned are oversights on the part of the writers, yet I doubt this is so. Their intention was simply for Odo to remain more or less on par with the other characters in terms of vulnerability.
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Old July 17 2009, 10:30 PM   #21
Captrek
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Re: WTF?! moment from "Vortex"

Regarding Odo and the bat’leth-wielding Klingon coming up behind him:

I recall several occasions in which small pieces of a shapeshifter were removed from the main body mass, and then rejoined it. But was there ever an occasion in which a shapeshifter was separated clean in half? A quick slice of a bat’leth from behind an unprepared Odo would have accomplished that. Do we know for sure that a shapeshifter could recover from that? More to the point, do Odo and Bashir know for sure that Odo could recover from that?

I hope I’m not violating the TrekBBS standards of conduct. I know that bumping old threads is discouraged, but I don’t know how old is old. This thread has been idle for a few hours shy of one month.
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Old July 17 2009, 11:33 PM   #22
AdmiralGarak
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Re: WTF?! moment from "Vortex"

TrekBBS is pretty laid back about resurrecting old threads so long as you continue the discussion, as you've done.

We really don't know anything about his physical make-up. My guess would be that his body could reconstitute itself after just about any level of fragmentation, so long as he isn't damaged on a cellular structure.
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Old July 18 2009, 09:09 PM   #23
Anticitizen
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Re: WTF?! moment from "Vortex"

I've been rewatching myself... there was a scene in the first season where Odo, faced with an airlock barring his entry onto a ship, melts down into liquid and gets through the airlock somehow.

Some airlock!
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Old July 24 2009, 10:15 AM   #24
PSGarak
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Re: WTF?! moment from "Vortex"

That head knock out with debris really bothered me, too. I do understand that the writers didn't want Odo to be indestructible, but having him KO'd by a blow to the head seemed very contrived to me. I also agree that if he had lost consciousness, he should have dissolved into a puddle of goo, not remained solid.

On an unrelated note, I was very glad that in that episode, they decided to send the kid and her father to live with the Vulcans. The thought of Odo having some alien kid tagging along after him and keeping him from being too lonely made me gag. It would've been the equivalent of the baby effect on so many previously successful shows that die agonizing deaths after some nimrod decides a cute kid will boost ratings.

EDIT: That airlock business bothered me, too. If Odo could get through it, you'd think that air could, too!

Last edited by PSGarak; July 24 2009 at 10:19 AM. Reason: Felt like it.
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