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Old July 23 2009, 03:36 AM   #121
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Re: The Typhon Pact

^Again, you're trying too hard to read a pattern into it. All analogies are inexact and limited in their applicability. The Typhon Pact/Warsaw Pact analogy is merely to the overall concept of "the other guys" forming an alliance to counter "our" guys. There's not meant to be any specific analogy on the level of individual members.
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Old July 23 2009, 04:16 AM   #122
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Re: The Typhon Pact

Christopher wrote: View Post
^Again, you're trying too hard to read a pattern into it. All analogies are inexact and limited in their applicability. The Typhon Pact/Warsaw Pact analogy is merely to the overall concept of "the other guys" forming an alliance to counter "our" guys. There's not meant to be any specific analogy on the level of individual members.
Though it does suggest the question of how power is going to be distributed in the Pact. How will the Pact be governed? Which Pact members will assume which roles? Will the Pact end up being a vehicle for one or two Pact members to dominate the others like the Warsaw Pact was for the Soviet Union or like NATO was for the U.S.? Will the Pact end up being almost its won separate entity with its own goals and agendas separate from the individual goals of its members like the U.N. is today? Will the Pact end up evolving into a genuine interstellar state whose members cooperate and interact as equals, like the Federation?
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Old July 23 2009, 11:31 AM   #123
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Re: The Typhon Pact

Christopher, I was thinking that due to the limited knowledge we have of the Tzenkethi, is it not possible that they do not have a single unified government or imperial empire of any kind, but a number of nation states which have formed the Coalition to present a united front to the outside galaxy in order not to appear weak?

This would make sense if you look at the behaviour of the Tzelnira, a Council made of the leaders of the nation states rather than a unified single world.
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Old July 23 2009, 01:46 PM   #124
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Re: The Typhon Pact

^Well..."The Adversary" implied some kind of worldwide government--which (according to rumor) was falling victim to a coup....
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Old July 23 2009, 01:54 PM   #125
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Re: The Typhon Pact

And now after the formation of the Pact, the Tzenkethi have yet another layer to hide behind, the cowardly petQ!

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Old July 23 2009, 02:21 PM   #126
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Re: The Typhon Pact

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
^Well..."The Adversary" implied some kind of worldwide government--which (according to rumor) was falling victim to a coup....
Specifically, it established the existence of the Autarch of the Tzenkethi Coalition. "Autarch" being, apparently, another word for "absolute ruler or dictator," implying the existence of some sort of autocratic dictatorship or monarchy.
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Old July 23 2009, 04:12 PM   #127
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Re: The Typhon Pact

I have a question: We know of Klingon - Kinshaya relations. What do we know about relations between the Klingons and the other members of the Typhon Pact?
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Old July 23 2009, 04:22 PM   #128
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Re: The Typhon Pact

well, they hate the RSE. They've attempted (and failed) to conquer the Breen and prolly don't like em post DW. they've clashed with the Tholians in the Gonmog Sector (cf. Vanguard). dunno about the Gorn or the Tzenkethi.
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Old July 23 2009, 04:27 PM   #129
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Re: The Typhon Pact

rahullak wrote: View Post
I have a question: We know of Klingon - Kinshaya relations. What do we know about relations between the Klingons and the other members of the Typhon Pact?
They have some sort of dispute with the Gorn over territory ("Mere Mortals" established, if I remember correctly, eight star systems the Gorn thought were by rights theirs, but the Klingons had control over). There is no indication it is a violent dispute, though. In "Serpents Among the Ruins", the Klingons are sending fleets to patrol the Gorn border, but don't seem to think there'll be trouble. I don't think the Gorn and Klingons have truly fought; indeed, in "The Gorn Crisis" they seemed to get along quite well following the Black Crest defeat. Ambassador Zogazin's comments in "Mere Mortals" suggest the Gorn see the Klingons as a Federation puppet state, though.

As we all know, they hate the Romulan Star Empire due to the endless stream of honour disputes, blood debts and what it insists is the Romulan's cowardly betrayal. They've never actually been at war, as far as I can tell, at least not since the 22nd century, but each would love to see the other fall. Amusingly, the Klingons seem to have no problem with the Imperial Romulan State, so perhaps hatred for Romulans-the-species is being transformed into more direct hatred for the RSE.

They have diplomatic relations with the Tzenkethi, but I don't think there has been anything of note between them.

They're hostile to the Tholians, as "Vanguard" and several "SCE" stories have shown, but in the latter Worf managed to prevent a conflict starting, so there appear to be plenty of heads cool enough to put aside lingering grudges over the Taurus Reach stuff. Note: did anyone else catch the link between "Open Secrets" and those SCE stories?

As for the Breen, there was Emperor Mow'ga (is that right?) and his long-ago attempt to conquer them, which failed spectacularly, and of course the Dominion War, but other than that, I think they're too far apart to have had any real contact.
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Old July 23 2009, 04:56 PM   #130
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Re: The Typhon Pact

^

Thank you.

And to ask more generally - what about Pact member relations with other AQ powers (Cardassia, Ferenginar etc.) ?
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Old July 24 2009, 10:38 AM   #131
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Re: The Typhon Pact

rahullak wrote: View Post
^

Thank you.

And to ask more generally - what about Pact member relations with other AQ powers (Cardassia, Ferenginar etc.) ?
I'm not sure we have much information. Most of the Pact members were previously isolationist if not full-on xenophobic, so there's not too much of a history with other nations, as far as I can tell.

We know some things about Pact nations' relations with the Cardassians: Cardassia had minor conflicts with the Breen and Tzenkethi (the "Terok Nor" books established- or at least suggested- that there were border raids and jostling and sabre-rattling there, but not actual war, apparently). "The Lost Era" revealed the Cardassians bought weapons from the Breen, using the Orion Syndicate as middlemen, while DS9 established they have an embassy on Breen homeworld (or the planet the Breen SAY is their homeworld, depending on what we make of Weyoun's comments, I suppose ). "A Stitch in Time" mentioned an abortive attempt by some Romulan factions to create an alliance with Cardassia and put an end to their isolationist phase, but the majority in the government seemed not to support it, Tain's manipulations aside, and nothing materialized...The book also said the Tal Shiar and Obsidian Order were essentially in a state of war. There's a Cardassian embassy on Romulus as well (I don't know if they have one on Tzenketh or Ab-Tzenketh, I don't recall anything about official diplomatic relations). As for Tholians, Gorn and Kinshaya, I don't believe there's been anything of note (Gorn are too far away, I guess, Kinshaya didn't talk to anyone and Tholians didn't either, although a Tholian ambassador visits DS9 (ambassador to Bajor?) so they might have a diplomatic presence.

As for Ferengi, they'll trade with anyone, more or less, so if any of the Pact nations desired it, I'm sure there'd be relations there. The novels suggest the Ferengi bought warp drive from the Breen, or a Breen (I don't remember if it was their government or independent traders) while DS9 established they trade with them.
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Old July 24 2009, 02:13 PM   #132
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Re: The Typhon Pact

^And let's keep in mind that those descriptions represent their policies during the time period we know about. A society can undergo considerable change in its policies and values over time. A state that's isolationist in one generation can easily have been outgoing a generation earlier, or vice versa. Heck, the USA was generally isolationist for the first part of the 20th century, but then abandoned that decisively after 1941.

We should always remember that when talking about the behavior or attitudes of a state, we're talking about the policies of its current sitting government, not something that's woven into the genetic code of the entire species throughout all time. And governments always have opposition, and sooner or later the opposition generally ends up taking over. For all we know, some of these Typhon Pact signatories may have recently undergone changes in government. Maybe the reason they signed on is because the new leaders wanted to reject the isolationist or xenophobic policies of their predecessors. Or maybe the current leaders' decision to join the Pact could spark a backlash from the opposition and endanger the survival of the sitting regime. The one constant in politics is change. (Well, and self-interest. And corruption. And... well, anyway.)
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Old July 24 2009, 03:02 PM   #133
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Re: The Typhon Pact

Deranged Nasat wrote: View Post
As we all know, they hate the Romulan Star Empire due to the endless stream of honour disputes, blood debts and what it insists is the Romulan's cowardly betrayal. They've never actually been at war, as far as I can tell, at least not since the 22nd century, but each would love to see the other fall. Amusingly, the Klingons seem to have no problem with the Imperial Romulan State, so perhaps hatred for Romulans-the-species is being transformed into more direct hatred for the RSE.
Don't forget that underneath the overt hostility there is a long history of deal-making and trading -- sometimes overt (selling the Romulans ships in the TOS era), more often under the table (novels The Final Refelction, The Art of the Impossible, episodes "Sins of the Father", "Birthright" parts I and II). So relations between the Empires is a bit more nuanced than obvious sneering and snarling they do at each other. The Romulan split stands to make things even more... interesting.
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Old July 24 2009, 05:36 PM   #134
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Re: The Typhon Pact

EmperorKalan wrote: View Post
Deranged Nasat wrote: View Post
As we all know, they hate the Romulan Star Empire due to the endless stream of honour disputes, blood debts and what it insists is the Romulan's cowardly betrayal. They've never actually been at war, as far as I can tell, at least not since the 22nd century, but each would love to see the other fall. Amusingly, the Klingons seem to have no problem with the Imperial Romulan State, so perhaps hatred for Romulans-the-species is being transformed into more direct hatred for the RSE.
Don't forget that underneath the overt hostility there is a long history of deal-making and trading -- sometimes overt (selling the Romulans ships in the TOS era), more often under the table (novels The Final Refelction, The Art of the Impossible, episodes "Sins of the Father", "Birthright" parts I and II). So relations between the Empires is a bit more nuanced than obvious sneering and snarling they do at each other. The Romulan split stands to make things even more... interesting.
Indeed. I was of course being quite simple and sweeping in my evaluation, so of course there are many levels of complexity I left out. Thanks for enhancing my original answer!
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Old July 24 2009, 08:57 PM   #135
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Re: The Typhon Pact

Christopher wrote: View Post
Or maybe the current leaders' decision to join the Pact could spark a backlash from the opposition and endanger the survival of the sitting regime.
With a little instigatory help from Starfleet Intelligence or Section 31.
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