Ben Sisko’s hair

[DiSiLLUSiON]

Odo's_Bucket wrote:

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They're in uniform. So no. Hairstyle is part of a uniform usually.

Usually only in military organizations, which Starfleet is not.

[Odo's_Bucket]

DiSiLLUSiON wrote:

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Usually only in military organizations, which Starfleet is not.

Not this tired argument again.

They are military.

http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/da...references.htm

It's been said, referred to, implied, admitted, alluded to and outright blatantly spoken, several times that Starfleet is military.

[Broccoli]

Wasn't the beard in Picture #2 fake for that episode?

[DiSiLLUSiON]

Odo's_Bucket wrote:

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It's been said, referred to, implied, admitted, alluded to and outright blatantly spoken, several times that Starfleet is military.

I don't agree. However, even it Starfleet were military, the military usually lets haircuts be as you like, unless it impacts performance. Not every country expects their military officers to have short cut or shaven scalps.

[Gary Mitchell]

DiSiLLUSiON wrote:

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Usually only in military organizations, which Starfleet is not.

That's the first time I've ever heard that. How can Starfleet not be military when it has such things as ranks, courts martials and enlisted personnel?

[Odo's_Bucket]

DiSiLLUSiON wrote:

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I don't agree. However, even it Starfleet were military, the military usually lets haircuts be as you like, unless it impacts performance. Not every country expects their military officers to have short cut or shaven scalps.

Not true. The military has strict regulations regarding the style and wear of ones hair. It's part of the UCMJ.


Grooming standards for men:
- Hair will be neat and clean and present a well-groomed appearance. Hair above the ears and around the neck will be tapered from the lower hairline upward at least 3/4 inch. Hair on the back of the neck may not touch the collar. Hair will be no longer than 4 inches.
- Sideburns are permitted, but they are to be an even width (not flared) and end with a claen-shaven horizontal line. Sideburns cannot extend below the middle of the ear.
- While in uniform, men may wear either one necklace or choker, but it must not be visible.
· Grooming standards for women
- Hair must be neatly arranged and styled to present a neat feminine appearance, but may not fall below the lower edge of the uniform collar. The only ornaments permitted in the hair are bobby pins and barretts (maximum of two) of a color that matches the hair.
- Fingernails must not exceed 1/4 inch measured from the tip of the finger. Nail polish must be of a soft shade, complementary to the skin tone.
- Cosmetics should be of conservative color and applied sparingly.
- Earrings must be the 6mm ball (approximately ¼ inch) type with a brushed matte finish. Either the screw on or post type may be worn.
- E-6 and below must wear silver earrings.
- CPO and Officers must wear gold. Note: small single pearl earrings are authorized for dinner or formal dress uniforms.
- While in uniform, women may wear one necklace or choker, but it must not be visible.
- The wearing of a maternity uniform is mandatory for all pregnant women in the Navy when a uniform is prescribed and regular uniforms no longer fit.
· Articles such as pencils, pens, watch chains, pins, jewelry, handkerchiefs, combs, cigars, cigarettes, or pipes must not be worn or carried exposed upon the uniform.


http://advancement1.tripod.com/milreq32ch2.html

[DiSiLLUSiON]

Odo's_Bucket wrote:

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Not true. The military has strict regulations regarding the style and wear of ones hair. It's part of the UCMJ.

In the US perhaps. As I said, not every country expects their military officers to have short cut or shaven scalps; these rules differ between different militaries. And I doubt Starfleet, if it were a military, would be founded solely on the rules and regulations of the US military.

Gary Mitchell wrote:

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That's the first time I've ever heard that. How can Starfleet not be military when it has such things as ranks, courts martials and enlisted personnel?

Beyond those things, there are also lots of aspects of military service you won't find in Starfleet. That's why that debate has been going on for ages.

[Odo's_Bucket]

DiSiLLUSiON wrote:

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In the US perhaps. As I said, not every country expects their military officers to have short cut or shaven scalps; these rules differ between different militaries. And I doubt Starfleet, if it were a military, would be founded solely on the rules and regulations of the US military.

There are very few militaries that don't have uniform and appearance standards and regulations.

[Odo's_Bucket]

More than once, on Star Trek, we have seen the uniform standards enforced. We've seen the hair and appearance standards enforced. I'd love to get a list of those times put together to present to you along with the numerous times a Starfleet officer has called themselves a soldier and the times throughout when Starfleet has been referred to as the service and or the military. Countless examples exists, and anyone who claims Starfleet isn't military obviously doesn't pay attention enough.

[DiSiLLUSiON]

Odo's_Bucket wrote:

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There are very few militaries that don't have uniform and appearance standards and regulations.

Of course, every military has regulations of some sort. However, the the actual regulations itself and the amount with which they are enforced tend to differ. Not only that, but aside from the times we did see certain regulations enforced, we've also seen a large amount of cases where strange or unpractical haircuts and improper uniforms have been allowed in Starfleet. As such, ascribing the regulations of a current-day military to Starfleet seems a bit strange.

[Odo's_Bucket]

DiSiLLUSiON wrote:

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Of course, every military has regulations of some sort. However, the the actual regulations itself and the amount with which they are enforced tend to differ. Not only that, but aside from the times we did see certain regulations enforced, we've also seen a large amount of cases where strange or unpractical haircuts and improper uniforms have been allowed in Starfleet. As such, ascribing the regulations of a current-day military to Starfleet seems a bit strange.

You said "the military usually lets haircuts be as you like". I proved that to be false. Then you claim starfleet had no uniform and appearance standards. I pointed out that they do and we've seen them enforced several times. Seeing some one with adaptations to their starfleet uniform or hair style does not mean there are no regulations. Waivers were made for people like Scotti, Worf, Ro .. ect. So anyone we see in the background who appears to be out of uniform, obviously the character has had such issues wavered in regard to either their religion or cultural tradition. That is something that happens in today's military to an extent in non combat environments.

The point is : You have no argument.

Seeing someone who is slightly out of uniform does not mean that the orginaziton for which they wear the uniform is not military.

[Odo's_Bucket]

[QUOTE=DiSiLLUSiON;3217391][QUOTE=Odo's_Bucket;3217355][QUOTE=DiSiLLUSiON;3217305]

Beyond those things, there are also lots of aspects of military service you won't find in Starfleet. That's why that debate has been going on for ages.

Today's military no longer carries with it aspects of ancient military service. Does that mean that today's military is not military?

[DiSiLLUSiON]

Odo's_Bucket wrote:

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You said "the military usually lets haircuts be as you like". I proved that to be false.

No, I said "not every military has as many haircut rules, nor is as strict with them as the US military". Seeing as Starfleet is not the US military, those rules would, in all likelyhood, not apply. You also proved only that the US military had certain rules, that does not discount my argument that not every military on this planet has the same rules or regulations, and by extension, that you shouldn't expect something like Starfleet to, if it is a type of military.

Then you claim starfleet had no uniform and appearance standards. I pointed out that they do and we've seen them enforced several times.

We have also seen that regularly, any appearance standards (we weren't talking about uniforms, but about haircuts) were not enforced. Even from episode to episode. Thus there is no basis in that argument if you only count those shots that support your views, and discount all others.

Seeing someone who is slightly out of uniform does not mean that the orginaziton for which they wear the uniform is not military.

You said it yourself; that is a discussion that has been going on for a long while. As such, I did not continue it. Trying to start it up again, because you think your argument is more valid then mine, is silly. Start a new thread for that.

[Odo's_Bucket]

DiSiLLUSiON wrote:

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I don't agree. However, even it Starfleet were military, the military usually lets haircuts be as you like, unless it impacts performance. Not every country expects their military officers to have short cut or shaven scalps.

No, I said "not every military has as many haircut rules, nor is as strict with them as the US military".

You lie. "the military usually lets haircuts be as you like" is clearly in your post.

Seeing as Starfleet is not the US military, those rules would, in all likelyhood, not apply. You also proved only that the US military had certain rules, that does not discount my argument that not every military on this planet has the same rules or regulations, and by extension, that you shouldn't expect something like Starfleet to, if it is a type of military.

No one is saying that Starfleet is U.S. military. We're only stating that it is military. The example I gave of the U.S. UCMJ was to show that your statement, that "the military usually lets haircuts be as you like" was incorrect. I'm not 'expecting' Starfleet to have the same standards. I'm simply pointing out that, by what has been shown on screen, it's fairly obvious that Starfleet has similar uniform and appearance standards.

We have also seen that regularly, any appearance standards (we weren't talking about uniforms, but about haircuts) were not enforced. Even from episode to episode. Thus there is no basis in that argument if you only count those shots that support your views, and discount all others.

If you haven't seen them enforced then you obviously don't pay enough attention. There are scenes in Star Trek that address both the uniform and appearance standards. That is my point. And yes, hair has been addressed on Star Trek. You contradict yourself by implying that since you believe Starfleet to be without uniform and appearance standards similar to those that exist in today's military, clearly it isn't military. Then you say that not all militaries have the same standards. Then you say that it doesn't matter anyway because Starfleet isn't military, but in case they are it doesn't matter since different militaries have different standards. The facts remain that Star Trek has shown on screen that there are certain uniform and appearance standard and that Starfleet is military organization and that many of the characters have referred to themselves as soldier. That is the point.

The comment was made that the hairstyles on Star Trek sometimes look bland and conformist. To which I replied that it wasn't strange since hairstyle is usually part of a uniform. You then made the comment that hairstyle is usually only part of a military uniform and that Starfleet is not military. You were wrong on both parts.

Yes, Starfleet is military. It has been acknowledged and shown on screen that Starfleet is military. Anyone who says that it hasn't obviously hasn't been paying attention all these years. Also, hairstyle is not just part of a military uniform. It is also sometimes part of many other uniforms including Police, Some paramedics services, some Fireman units, some professional sports teams, some styles of prize fighting, and many more.

You are wrong on both counts, you contradict yourself, and you have no argument.

My original point, that which eludes you, is that the "bland and conformist" hairstyles shown on Star Trek are not surprising considering that hairstlye is usually part of a uniform.

[DiSiLLUSiON]

Odo's_Bucket wrote:

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You lie. "the military usually lets haircuts be as you like" is clearly in your post.

I do not lie, since I said "the military". As in, "the military in my country". I'm not based in the US, as the text besides my posts clearly state.

The rest is all semantics. I don't think Starfleet is military, but that is a different discussion. We've seen examples of haircut regulations being enforced, and we've seen examples of it being overlooked. That does not mean I need to "pay more attention".

In essense; my point is this: We've seen all sorts of crazy hairstyles on Star Trek; nothing bland about them at all. If they were, you'd have a point. But they aren't, they are often strange.