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Old July 20 2009, 02:09 AM   #106
Hartzilla2007
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Re: The Typhon Pact

Hey has anyone ever Danced with the devil in the pale moonlight?
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Old July 20 2009, 03:47 AM   #107
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Re: The Typhon Pact

Sci wrote: View Post
The Tholians wish it had been, but it was not actually founded to service anti-Federation hostility.
I see. And that is how you explain Tezrene's comment to Bacco about "it is YOU who are surrounded by a heavily armed hostile power" (emphasis mine)?

The Tholians were the only ones acting hostile, and that was in retaliation for what can at best be described as an act of passive pre-emptive hostility from the Federation -- one that could have endangered Tholia's existence.
And is everything the Typhon Pact does that could conceivably be regarded as hostile, somehow the Federation's fault? If the Federation can be wrong, and can do things that can cause the Pact to act, then why can the reverse not be true?

Again, Sekki was working for the Tholian government, which, if you read A Singular Destiny, you will recall was acting independently, without the rest of the Pact knowing about it. The Tholians were doing this as revenge for Bacco's having deprived them of the Breen mercenary fleet just prior to the Borg Invasion.

In other words, the Tholians were going behind the Pact's back to screw over the Federation.
That still seems rather convenient - the use of Sekki to commit crimes that the Pact, as a whole, can quite easily disavow any knowledge of. Quite a readily-made scapegoat, that.

The back cover copy talked about it being a Pax galactica.
Oh yes, and the back cover blurbs don't ever make mistakes, do they?

Tell me, do you think that the rise of China, India, Brazil, and the European Union as major world powers constitutes a threat to the U.S. in real life?
I would call China a threat, yes. Remember Tiananmen Square? Don't tell me they don't have a hostile intent.

Do you think that a nation is only safe from its neighbors if it is a lone superpower to whom no other nation is an equal?
If that means that no other nation would dare attack it, then it just might be.


"Professor, isn't this Pact a threat to the Federation?"
[snip]

I am well aware of that scene. And I have never advocated that the Federation should openly *attack* the Pact, or that open warfare should break out between the two. (Although if the Pact attacks first, the Federation would of course have every right to defend itself.)

The Typhon Pact has been compared, in theory, to the Warsaw Pact. That may be a closer analogy than anyone realizes. Are you aware of how often, and how close, the US and the Soviet Union have gotten to flat-out warfare? There were times when we were a hair-trigger away from World War III. Google the name 'Stanislav Petrov' if you don't believe me. (Although, to be fair, Petrov was a Soviet officer who himself prevented war from breaking out. I don't discount the possibility of a Typhon Pact citizen doing the same.)
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Old July 20 2009, 06:06 AM   #108
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Re: The Typhon Pact

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
I see. And that is how you explain Tezrene's comment to Bacco about "it is YOU who are surrounded by a heavily armed hostile power" (emphasis mine)?
That conversation was half exposition and half pissing contest. Tezrene described it as a "heavily-armed hostile power," but she implied that it would have been hostile to Tholia had they not joined. Well, that just doesn't make sense -- the Typhon Pact is based on the idea of unity, not the idea of conquest. It's ultimately not going to be able to gain any real power in the quadrant if it keeps doing the same-old, same-old; it knows full well that wars and conquest have been tried, and produced only moderately large results, whereas cooperation and partnership have turned the Federation into an unrivaled superpower.

Tezrene was saying that because she was playing mind games with Bacco. If the Pact was actually actively hostile like that, they wouldn't have gone and stopped the Kinshaya fleet that was attacking the Klingons and they wouldn't have apologized. And Tezrene herself wouldn't have allowed the Tholians to take sole blame the way she did.

The Tholians were the only ones acting hostile, and that was in retaliation for what can at best be described as an act of passive pre-emptive hostility from the Federation -- one that could have endangered Tholia's existence.
And is everything the Typhon Pact does that could conceivably be regarded as hostile, somehow the Federation's fault?
I never said it was the Federation's fault, nor did I say that the Tholians' actions were justified, nor did I imply such. What I did say was that, from the Tholians' point of view, they were retaliating for what could quite reasonably be seen as an act of Federation hostility against them. I mean, think about it -- the Federation went and bullied the Ferengi into denying the Tholians access to a fleet of warships the day before the biggest invasion of the Alpha Quadrant in galactic history began.

That doesn't make what the Tholians did okay -- it makes it understandable. It means that we have to acknowledge that our enemies are not necessarily irrationally hostile or "evil" and acknowledge that "we done wrong" in order to reach a point where peaceful reconciliation is possible. Now, it takes two to tango. If the UFP admits it's done wrong but not the Tholian Assembly, well, the ball's in the Tholians' court. No one's arguing the Tholians aren't jerks.

But they're not jerks who are impossible to understand. Nor are they jerks who were entirely wrong. Not entirely right, either. It's all a matter of perspective.

If the Federation can be wrong, and can do things that can cause the Pact to act, then why can the reverse not be true?
Oh, certainly. I'm not saying the Tholians were right or justified, just understandable (if boneheaded). And it would be completely understandable -- though, in my view, just as boneheaded -- for the UFP to retaliate somehow for the Tholians trying to screw with them.

But that wouldn't be very conducive to peace on either end, now would it? I do expect better of the Federation than of the Tholians.

That still seems rather convenient - the use of Sekki to commit crimes that the Pact, as a whole, can quite easily disavow any knowledge of. Quite a readily-made scapegoat, that.
It's entirely possible, but I doubt the Tholians would be willing to take the blame by themselves the way they did if it weren't true. Do the Tholians strike you as being burdened with an over-abundance of loyalty to anyone who isn't Tholian? I doubt they'd be willing to fall on their swords for the Typhon Pact.

I would call China a threat, yes. Remember Tiananmen Square? Don't tell me they don't have a hostile intent.
And a Chinese person could easy reply, "I would call the United States a threat, yes. Remember Kent State? Don't tell me they don't have hostile intent." (I should know, since I am about to graduate from Kent State University in a month: Even democratic governments have been known to murder their own citizens for daring to protest.)

Obviously China is an authoritarian government that's more than willing to crush domestic dissent. It does not logically follow, however, that they must therefore constitute a hostile enemy in the realm of foreign policy.

Do you think that a nation is only safe from its neighbors if it is a lone superpower to whom no other nation is an equal?
If that means that no other nation would dare attack it, then it just might be.
There is no such thing as being so powerful that no other nation will dare attack you. A casual glance at history will reveal that all of the great empires in history faced enemies more than willing to attack them at every stage of their history. In fact, it often creates more enemies than you might otherwise have through the process of blowback.

Dominance is not conducive to national security.

"Professor, isn't this Pact a threat to the Federation?"
[snip]

I am well aware of that scene. And I have never advocated that the Federation should openly *attack* the Pact, or that open warfare should break out between the two. (Although if the Pact attacks first, the Federation would of course have every right to defend itself.)
Of course.

But, then, that's sorta the issue: You've been approaching the Pact from the presumption, unbacked by evidence, of uniform hostility and aggression on their part. You've approached the issue with the unquestioned premise that if the Typhon Pact does well, the Federation must do poorly. You have begun from the premise that the Typhon Pact represents an existential threat to the Federation and moved from there -- even though that is by no means a certainty.

You can't forge a good relationship with someone if you refuse to accept that others are operating in good faith. That kind of attitude towards a foreign society can lead to a great deal of unnecessary conflict -- and can influence an otherwise peaceful society to behave in a hostile manner without real justification.
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Old July 20 2009, 02:58 PM   #109
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Re: The Typhon Pact

Sci wrote: View Post
There is no such thing as being so powerful that no other nation will dare attack you.
Except for these guys, of course.

You can't forge a good relationship with someone if you refuse to accept that others are operating in good faith. That kind of attitude towards a foreign society can lead to a great deal of unnecessary conflict -- and can influence an otherwise peaceful society to behave in a hostile manner without real justification.
That does work for both the Federation *and* the Pact, of course.
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Old July 20 2009, 05:22 PM   #110
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Re: The Typhon Pact

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
There is no such thing as being so powerful that no other nation will dare attack you.
Except for these guys, of course.
Technically, that's a matter of being so smart that no one will dare attack you, not so powerful.

But I'm inclined to dismiss that as ludicrous propaganda. Everyone gets attacked at one point or another.
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Old July 20 2009, 05:52 PM   #111
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Re: The Typhon Pact

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I was always under the impression that the main reason that the UFP was eventually formed was because the humans helped to balance out the other species. The Vulcans and the Andorians had been basically at war until humans stepped onto the scene. Their positive relations with both sides helped to ease the tensions. Same goes for the Andorians and the Tellarites, who were frequently antagonistic towards each other.

The TP doesn't have one species that keesps the others from going at each other's throats when things go bad. My guess is that the Romulans are already hedging their bets so that if/when the TP falls apart, they get the biggest advantage of the group out of the whole thing.
It may be that one emerges from the group, and not necessarily one of the major players. Most of the Pact members likely have conquered or subordinated species under their thumbs (or whatever) that might try to slip out of that control by being more widely useful. Or the Pact may acquire more "junior" members who are'nt powerful enough to have much influence by strength alone, but manage to extend their influence by acting as peacekeepers and feather-unrufflers.
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Old July 21 2009, 12:17 AM   #112
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Re: The Typhon Pact

Hey...here's a question that (hopefully) should bring some folks' attention back to the thread:

If the Typhon Pact is liken to the Warsaw Pact, can we then imply that the former Romulan Empire is the new Germany?

(RSE--East Germany, Warsaw Pact/Typhon Pact; IRS--West Germany, NATO/Khitomer Alliance)

And...considering Tholia's apparent hostility to the UFP (read, the ambassador's saber-rattling to Bacco), and (during the Cold War) the Soviet Union's hostility to the USA, Is Tholia the new USSR?
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Old July 21 2009, 12:23 AM   #113
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Re: The Typhon Pact

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
Hey...here's a question that (hopefully) should bring some folks' attention back to the thread:

If the Typhon Pact is liken to the Warsaw Pact, can we then imply that the former Romulan Empire is the new Germany?

(RSE--East Germany, Warsaw Pact/Typhon Pact; IRS--West Germany, NATO/Khitomer Alliance)

And...considering Tholia's apparent hostility to the UFP (read, the ambassador's saber-rattling to Bacco), and (during the Cold War) the Soviet Union's hostility to the USA, Is Tholia the new USSR?
Not unless the Tholians want to have the Romulans shoving disruptors in their faces cause I don't see the Romulans or ANY member of the Pact will follow the lead of the isolationist Tholians especially the Breen who were part of a bigger power even if it was only temporary.

Also the problem with likening the situation with the RSE to East Germany is East Germany wasn't exactly a voluntary member of the Warsaw Pact since they were un Soviet occupation at the time and the Romulan Star Empire willingly joined the Typhon Pact.

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Old July 21 2009, 02:49 AM   #114
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Re: The Typhon Pact

So...who would you say is the Soviet-Union Alpha-Dawg of the Typhon Pact--if there is one?
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Old July 21 2009, 06:14 AM   #115
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Re: The Typhon Pact

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
So...who would you say is the Soviet-Union Alpha-Dawg of the Typhon Pact--if there is one?
I don't think there is. The two most 'powerful' empires, the Romulan Star Empire and the Tholian Assembly, can't compare in power by themselves to the Federation. At least in theory Russia could compare with the US, but as we know a lot of it was bluster and deception.
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Old July 22 2009, 11:13 PM   #116
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Re: The Typhon Pact

The Typhon Pact, looking at it as powers forming together for mutual benefit, are very much like the European Union. Not in antagonism to the US (which is very much like the Federation, member states/worlds, standard set of laws, etc) but in addition to it. If you look at Star Trek's admittedly sketchy history prior to United Earth, there are supposed to be only a handful of small unions, The European Hegemony, the African Union or whatever it was called, the United Arab Emirates, and so on and so forth, but these unions did not form the UE. Each individual country signed up and, with Australia supposedly being the last hold out until 2150.

Who knows, by the end of the 25th century, the individual members of the Typhon Pact, the Klingon Empire, might have all signed up for a new alliance, with each member world of the Federation doing the same for a true Pax Galactica.

But it will take time.
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Old July 23 2009, 12:15 AM   #117
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Re: The Typhon Pact

EmperorKalan wrote: View Post
Most of the Pact members likely have conquered or subordinated species under their thumbs (or whatever) that might try to slip out of that control by being more widely useful.
Do we really have any evidence to base that assumption on? The Romulans are an empire, so presumably they have various subject worlds in addition to Remus (though aside from the Dominion, Star Trek has always been very bad at depicting empires in a way that's actually imperial, i.e. multicultural under a single ruling power). We know from A Singular Destiny that the Kinshaya are conquerors and recently enslaved the Kreel. But we have no evidence that any of the others have subject races, do we? Maybe the Tholians; the Early Voyages comic gave them a subject people called the Chakuun who were their shock troops in battle, but that hasn't been followed up anywhere and may no longer be true in the 24th century. There's no reason to believe the Gorn are a conquering power as a rule; the usurpers' attempt at conquest in The Gorn Crisis was presented as an exception to the norm. As for the Breen, they were fairly isolationist before allying with the Dominion; they seem like the sort who keep to themselves rather than going around subjugating other species. And the Tzenkethi's state is called a Coalition, which suggests a voluntary, more or less equal partnership of member states.


Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
If the Typhon Pact is liken to the Warsaw Pact, can we then imply that the former Romulan Empire is the new Germany?

(RSE--East Germany, Warsaw Pact/Typhon Pact; IRS--West Germany, NATO/Khitomer Alliance)

And...considering Tholia's apparent hostility to the UFP (read, the ambassador's saber-rattling to Bacco), and (during the Cold War) the Soviet Union's hostility to the USA, Is Tholia the new USSR?
That's taking the analogy way, way too literally. The idea is not to do some slavishly exact copy of recent Earth history.
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Old July 23 2009, 12:22 AM   #118
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Re: The Typhon Pact

Christopher wrote: View Post
EmperorKalan wrote: View Post
Most of the Pact members likely have conquered or subordinated species under their thumbs (or whatever) that might try to slip out of that control by being more widely useful.
Do we really have any evidence to base that assumption on? The Romulans are an empire, so presumably they have various subject worlds in addition to Remus (though aside from the Dominion, Star Trek has always been very bad at depicting empires in a way that's actually imperial, i.e. multicultural under a single ruling power). We know from A Singular Destiny that the Kinshaya are conquerors and recently enslaved the Kreel. But we have no evidence that any of the others have subject races, do we? Maybe the Tholians; the Early Voyages comic gave them a subject people called the Chakuun who were their shock troops in battle, but that hasn't been followed up anywhere and may no longer be true in the 24th century.
The Vanguard novel Summon the Thunder established that the Tholians in the 23rd Century had conquered a number of alien species and routinely used them as slave labour. We do not know if this practice has continued into the 24th Century, though.

There's no reason to believe the Gorn are a conquering power as a rule; the usurpers' attempt at conquest in The Gorn Crisis was presented as an exception to the norm. As for the Breen, they were fairly isolationist before allying with the Dominion; they seem like the sort who keep to themselves rather than going around subjugating other species. And the Tzenkethi's state is called a Coalition, which suggests a voluntary, more or less equal partnership of member states.
To be fair, the People's Republic of China and Democratic People's Republic of Korea both sound like they ought to be democratic, but that ain't the cause. But, yeah, there's no evidence that the Gorn or Tzenkethi have histories of imperialism, and no evidence of imperialism on the part of the Breen prior to the Dominion War.
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Old July 23 2009, 02:50 AM   #119
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Re: The Typhon Pact

That's taking the analogy way, way too literally. The idea is not to do some slavishly exact copy of recent Earth history.
Just sayin', Chris....

After all, I seem to recall one of TPTP comparing The Dominion War to WWII, with the UFP as the USA, the Klingon Empire as the UK (), and the Romulans as the USSR....

None of those three are quite copies of their "counterparts"...but you get the idea....
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Old July 23 2009, 03:33 AM   #120
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Re: The Typhon Pact

Christopher wrote: View Post
Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
If the Typhon Pact is liken to the Warsaw Pact, can we then imply that the former Romulan Empire is the new Germany?

(RSE--East Germany, Warsaw Pact/Typhon Pact; IRS--West Germany, NATO/Khitomer Alliance)

And...considering Tholia's apparent hostility to the UFP (read, the ambassador's saber-rattling to Bacco), and (during the Cold War) the Soviet Union's hostility to the USA, Is Tholia the new USSR?
That's taking the analogy way, way too literally.
Which is *my* job, by the way.
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