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Old July 19 2009, 09:41 PM   #2191
Pemmer Harge
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

If you have stopped, Godben, the question is, are you still a hater?
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Old July 19 2009, 09:45 PM   #2192
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Pemmer Harge wrote: View Post
If you have stopped, Godben, the question is, are you still a hater?
Based on the reviews, I'd say yes.
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Old July 20 2009, 12:34 AM   #2193
TheGodBen
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Frazzled wrote: View Post
In return we Voyager lovers will receive .... a higher average rating for season 6 and 7, because you'll be missing the ones you really hate
Never! Never! Never!


Fair Haven (0)

JANEWAY: You have outdone yourself this time. Everything is authentic, except for one tiny detail.
...
SHMULLY: As I recall, the Captain is quite an aficionado of Irish history.
Having watched Darby O'Gill and the Little People does not make one an aficionado of Irish history. The program seems to be based in the late 19th century, probably between 1870-1900 in which case the episode is missing several important features; the land war, religious tensions, mass emigration, the Home Rule movement and... oh yeah, the fact that the country was still occupied by a foreign power.

The later half of the 19th century was a turbulent time in Irish history and the political fallout from the period sowed the seeds for the eventual creation of the Irish Free State in 1922. I'm not saying that the episode should have focused on these things because the writers clearly wanted the episode to be a light story about a romantic entanglement with a hologram, but if you're going to play so fast and loose with history then you shouldn't be patting yourself on the back for being so accurate.

JANEWAY: She and my uncle had a place not far from here, in County Clare.
JANEWAY: Excuse me, sir. Is the train to Galway running on time?
MICHAEL: It's a steep climb but from the top of the battlement you can see all the way to Dublin.
Time for a geography lesson, take a look at this map of Ireland.



I've circled Co Clare in red, it's in the mid-west region. We know that Fair Haven is a coastal town near Co Clare, so that would place it somewhere in Co Galway or Co Kerry, both of which I've circled in blue. Of those two counties it is more likely that Fair Haven is in Co Galway because Janeway enquired about the train to Galway (presumably referring to the city) and there would never have been a direct train line between Kerry and Galway due to the Shannon estuary, the train would have been heading to Limerick city. Using Google Earth I have calculated that the shortest possible distance between Fair Haven and Co Dublin is 160km, or 100 miles. That must be one bloody high castle!

To some this may seem like a minor nit-pick and I would generally agree, but it is a symbol of a huge problem this episode had for me; they keep on throwing in "Irish" references while hardly seeming to understand what they're talking about. But hey, Dublin is a city in Ireland so that makes it authentic.

And I haven't even begun to discuss the Irish sterotyping contained within the episode. What I liked about Chief O'Brien was that he was a person who happened to be Irish, but every single one of the characters in the Fair Haven program is an Irish stereotype who happens to be a person. You have the mischievous drunk stereotype, the rugged yet sensitive stereotype, the red-haired temptress stereotype... The whole town is populated with overused Irish stereotypes, but I guess that makes it "authentic".

I normally don't let this sort of thing bother me so much, and I generally play along with some of the stereotypes such as the drinking and love of potatoes. But the incessant nature of the stereotyping and the name-dropping in this episode while claiming that the whole thing is authentic is very aggravating to me. I hope you understand why I have to give this episode a zero.

Imagine if Tom had decided to make a holoprogram set in an African American community and he has all the black characters being of lower than average intelligence, they survive on a diet of watermelons and fried chicken and they add "izzle" to the end of every second word. Now imagine he set the program in Mississippi in the 1960s and completely failed to mention anything about the racial tensions and the civil rights movement. Now imagine Janeway walking in and saying "This is very authentic work Tom, and I should know because I'm an expert on African American culture, my nizzle".

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Old July 20 2009, 01:17 AM   #2194
startrekwatcher
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

GodBen wrote: View Post
Imagine if Tom had decided to make a holoprogram set in an African American community and he has all the black characters being of lower than average intelligence, they survive on a diet of watermelons and fried chicken and they add "izzle" to the end of every second word.
Sounds like Tom would be running a holoprogram based on an ancient reality show called "Flavor of Love"

All kidding aside this episode doesn't do a very good job at holding one's attention. I'd give it 2 stars. I'm sorry but I don't think it is that awful or that offensive. Entertainment always plays with all sorts of steroetypes--whether about say people from Texas or the South, sci-fi fans being overweight geeky virgins etc. I don't take offense about that.
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Old July 20 2009, 02:30 AM   #2195
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Re: "Farihaven". It looks like Tom & the writers had watched "The Quiet Man" a few times.
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Old July 20 2009, 07:14 PM   #2196
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

[QUOTE=GodBen;3207749]
Frazzled wrote: View Post
And I haven't even begun to discuss the Irish sterotyping contained within the episode. What I liked about Chief O'Brien was that he was a person who happened to be Irish, but every single one of the characters in the Fair Haven program is an Irish stereotype who happens to be a person. You have the mischievous drunk stereotype, the rugged yet sensitive stereotype, the red-haired temptress stereotype... The whole town is populated with overused Irish stereotypes, but I guess that makes it "authentic".

I normally don't let this sort of thing bother me so much, and I generally play along with some of the stereotypes such as the drinking and love of potatoes. But the incessant nature of the stereotyping and the name-dropping in this episode while claiming that the whole thing is authentic is very aggravating to me. I hope you understand why I have to give this episode a zero.
I hate Fair Haven and I hate being put in the postion of defending it...but two quick things.

I think you're being a bit hard on how accurate the portrayal was. The point of the program was for the crew to be able to relax in an Irish town. I think when Janeway says it seems accurate, she means that the buildings, clothing, speech patterns, etc. seem well done.

On the stereotype thing, are you saying that these kind of people DON'T exist in Ireland? Remember these are characters placed in the program to entertain people. If they were all just boring, normal people you could encounter anywhere, but just happened to have Irish accents, what would be the fun in that??

Just like if they made one in Italy, we would probably see the Romeo type guy trotted out, a guy with connections to the mafia, the overbearing Italian mother stereotype telling everyone to "eat up", etc.. I don't think most people think that is all there is to these places. And I can understand the annoyance at stereotypes. Perhaps the problem isn't really the stereotypes, but the lame, half assed, un-subtle, heavy handed portrayal of them. But the point I'm trying to make is, if you take these kinds of people away you're left with a flavorless boring place.
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Old July 20 2009, 09:46 PM   #2197
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

^ that's fine, until you get someone saying "now this is accurate, except the harp on the sign is backwards"...

imagine if they were in a "historically accurate" representation of 21st century america, every single person there is fat, stupid and eating a macdonalds, and the criticism is "Hey wait, the 'M' should be yellow, not blue"
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Old July 20 2009, 10:38 PM   #2198
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I can actually enjoy the scene with Janeway and the Doctor where they debate the merits of using holograms instead of living lovers - this does seem to be a conversation that, given the number of programs specifically designed for sex in the 24th century, would naturally come up. And the idea of utilizing a holographic lover and falling in love with them because you can just edit and alter anything you don't like could have been a commentary on people who enter a relationship thinking in terms of 'oh, I can change that/they'll change after we're together' etc, and loving people for who they are.

However, the show is just so much more interested in being in this rustic Irish stereotype that they completely ignore that idea. And... why in God's name does so much of the crew get involved in this place? Maybe it's just that I can't imagine being separated from my technology, but what's the appeal of this place? I can't imagine that so much of the crew is interested in 'getting away from it all' that they all jump into the idea of a holoprogram set five hundred years prior. DOES NOT COMPUTE.

Good thing this is the only appearance of... oh, crap. 'Spirit Folk.' And that one manages to be even WORSE - I have to go through extensive therapy every time I remember it exists to blank it from my mind...
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Old July 20 2009, 10:50 PM   #2199
TheGodBen
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

destro wrote: View Post
I think you're being a bit hard on how accurate the portrayal was. The point of the program was for the crew to be able to relax in an Irish town. I think when Janeway says it seems accurate, she means that the buildings, clothing, speech patterns, etc. seem well done.
Which would be fine were it not for the fact that she is considered "an aficionado of Irish history" yet fails to mention the giant elephant in the room which is the fact that Ireland was occupied by a power which was resented by a large section of the population. We're never told the particular decade which the episode takes place in, but it did take place during the later half of the 19th century in which case:

The second of Ireland's "Great Famines", An Gorta Mór struck the country severely in the period 1845-1849, with potato blight leading to mass starvation and emigration. (See Great Irish Famine.) The impact of emigration in Ireland was severe; the population dropped from over 8 million before the Famine to 4.4 million in 1911.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Ireland

This was not a happy-go-lucky period of Irish history, this was a time of political struggle. Yet Janeway, the aficionado of Irish history, thinks the only thing wrong is that a harp is backwards? And rather than pay lip-service to these important events in the history of the country they spend a whole hour ignoring them in order to focus on tired Irish stereotypes? It's insulting.

On the stereotype thing, are you saying that these kind of people DON'T exist in Ireland?
Well... yes. Admittedly I don't know everyone in Ireland, and I certainly wasn't alive during the 19th century, but don't come across characters like the ones that populate Fair Haven. They probably exist out there somewhere because in a country of 4.2 million people you're bound to come across a couple of dozen who will fit the stereotype, but you're probably not going to find such a high concentration of them as there is in Fair Haven.

Except in Kerry.
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Old July 21 2009, 12:17 AM   #2200
The Grim Ghost
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

My biggest problem with Fair Haven (aside from it being a stupid and boring episode) is how come Tom gets to use BOTH holodecks 24/7?

What about poor Ensign Blechh who has been saving up his holo-rations or whatever to do some water skiing? And what about actual legitimate uses of the holodeck like for scientific research, security/tactical training, etc.???

"Sorry Tuvok, you can't run those drills today. Mr. Paris is dicking around in Ireland with half the crew again."
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Old July 21 2009, 03:00 AM   #2201
teya
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

GodBen wrote: View Post
The later half of the 19th century was a turbulent time in Irish history and the political fallout from the period sowed the seeds for the eventual creation of the Irish Free State in 1922. I'm not saying that the episode should have focused on these things because the writers clearly wanted the episode to be a light story about a romantic entanglement with a hologram, but if you're going to play so fast and loose with history then you shouldn't be patting yourself on the back for being so accurate.
And I haven't even begun to discuss the Irish sterotyping contained within the episode. What I liked about Chief O'Brien was that he was a person who happened to be Irish, but every single one of the characters in the Fair Haven program is an Irish stereotype who happens to be a person. You have the mischievous drunk stereotype, the rugged yet sensitive stereotype, the red-haired temptress stereotype... The whole town is populated with overused Irish stereotypes, but I guess that makes it "authentic".

I normally don't let this sort of thing bother me so much, and I generally play along with some of the stereotypes such as the drinking and love of potatoes. But the incessant nature of the stereotyping and the name-dropping in this episode while claiming that the whole thing is authentic is very aggravating to me. I hope you understand why I have to give this episode a zero.

Imagine if Tom had decided to make a holoprogram set in an African American community and he has all the black characters being of lower than average intelligence, they survive on a diet of watermelons and fried chicken and they add "izzle" to the end of every second word. Now imagine he set the program in Mississippi in the 1960s and completely failed to mention anything about the racial tensions and the civil rights movement. Now imagine Janeway walking in and saying "This is very authentic work Tom, and I should know because I'm an expert on African American culture, my nizzle".
Perhaps you now understand why I hate "Tattoo" so much, particularly when it comes to historical blindness...

At least "Fair Haven" was a holodeck program. "Tattoo" made me not fully human.

And you gave that drivel 2-1/2 stars.
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Old July 21 2009, 04:17 AM   #2202
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

If I was in charge of VOY then episodes such as "Fair haven" & "Spirit Folk" wouldn't be made. But I have to grudgingly admit that I enjoyed them, they were fun episodes.

I sympathize with those that were bothered by Irish stereotypes (though I don't think it was as bad as that early TNG episode in this regard). I wish they had made the episodes without any specific ethnic group.
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Old July 21 2009, 09:54 AM   #2203
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Did you ever think that maybe Tom wanted to create a stereotypical, paradise view of Ireland? Do you think he wanted to be freedom fighting with the Irish or relaxing in a nice country town?
Regardless of that, there wasn't ever really an excuse for a holodeck episode in Voyager.
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Old July 21 2009, 12:47 PM   #2204
JB2005
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Furtados_Feet wrote: View Post
Did you ever think that maybe Tom wanted to create a stereotypical, paradise view of Ireland? Do you think he wanted to be freedom fighting with the Irish or relaxing in a nice country town?
All it would have taken would have been:

Janeway: You know Mr Paris, I have to point out that Ireland at this time was a little more, unstable, than you've portrayed it here.
Paris: Oh I know Captain, but I just wanted this to be a little piece of rustic paradise in the Delta Quadrant.

Regardless of that, there wasn't ever really an excuse for a holodeck episode in Voyager.
This.

Voyager has severely limited energy supplies so what should be done? Keep the holodecks, massive drains on power, online 24/7.

Bravo...
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Old July 21 2009, 02:39 PM   #2205
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

teya wrote: View Post
Perhaps you now understand why I hate "Tattoo" so much, particularly when it comes to historical blindness...

At least "Fair Haven" was a holodeck program. "Tattoo" made me not fully human.

And you gave that drivel 2-1/2 stars.
The sad truth is that I don't know much about native Americans so I didn't feel I was in a position to judge if that episode was racist or not. But I can certainly understand why why people would find that episode so insulting, I just didn't want to make a stand on a subject I barely understand.

On the subject, I read this on Wikipedia yesterday about the Irish potato famine:

In 1847, midway through the Great Irish Famine, a group of American Indian Choctaws collected $710 and sent it to help starving Irish men, women and children. "It had been just 16 years since the Choctaw people had experienced the Trail of Tears, and they had faced starvation... It was an amazing gesture. By today's standards, it might be a million dollars." according to Judy Allen, editor of the Choctaw Nation of Oklahoma's newspaper, Bishinik.

Now that's a truly meaningful gesture. If only the fabulously wealthy Queen Victoria had been so kind...

In 1845, Ottoman Sultan Abdülmecid declared his intention to send 10,000 sterling to Irish farmers but Queen Victoria requested that the Sultan send only 1,000 sterling, because she had sent only 2,000 sterling. The Sultan sent the 1,000 sterling but also secretly sent 3 ships full of food. The English courts tried to block the ships, but the food arrived at Drogheda harbour and was left there by Ottoman sailors.

Now you know why I dislike the British monarchy.

Furtados_Feet wrote: View Post
Did you ever think that maybe Tom wanted to create a stereotypical, paradise view of Ireland? Do you think he wanted to be freedom fighting with the Irish or relaxing in a nice country town?
Then don't call it authentic. I would say that they shouldn't have based it during such a depressing time, but I guess Irish history is mostly depressing up until the 1990s.


Blink of an Eye (****)

This is easily one of the best sci-fi plot based episodes of the series, the concept is cool and the episode manages to back it up for the most part. And even though the story takes place across several days and a few centuries at the same time, the whole thing manages to be seamless.

Two problems hold it back a little, the biggest problem is the use of Shmully. He lived three years on that planet with a partner and child, yet when Voyager beams him back up he doesn't seem to care about the family he was leaving behind? That should be a life-changing experience for Shmully but instead he is pleased to return to Voyager and take up his old job. And just like O'Brien's experience in Hard Time, this second life is never mentioned again.

The other problem is that this species will probably be super-advanced by the end of the week, yet we never hear from them again? It's the embodiment of episodic story-telling.
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