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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old July 16 2009, 10:28 AM   #31
Deranged Nasat
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Location: ...But it's sad and it's sweet and I knew it complete, when I wore a younger man's clothes.
Re: Where do Trill symbionts come from?

JB2005 wrote: View Post
From the production notes of Brannon Braga:

By the 24th Century the Stork will have evolved as a result of a mutation in its T-Cell into a lizard creature which is capable of travelling at Warp 10, allowing it to go everywhere in the universe simultaenously and yet bizarrely always end up where it started when it stops...
We are all the sum of our tears. Too little and the ground is not fertile, and nothing can grow there. Too much, and the best of us is washed away.
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Old July 18 2009, 06:08 AM   #32
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Re: Where do Trill symbionts come from?

Sci wrote: View Post
Kestrel wrote: View Post
It worked for the German psyche in the aftermath of WW2, which is a better analogy, didn't it?
It's a horrible analogy. Germany was a democracy that elected to power a totalitarian who then ended democracy but continued to enjoy widespread domestic support for his entire agenda, including rampant anti-Semitism, genocide, and aggressive war.

The vast majority of Unjoined, by contrast, were peacefully petitioning their elected government -- dominated by Joined -- for equal rights when a handful of extremists engaged in a terrorist attack using advanced technology to kill as many of the Symbionts as possible -- killing, if I recall correctly, plenty of other Unjoined in the process.
My point was a majority with a history of grievances that was co-opted by a murderously violent minority, fueled by race hatred. The falling-apart of the analogy in that case is that there's no sense that the UnJoined hate the symbionts by and large, just those few terrorists. On the other hand, the anti-Semitism of the majority German people was not significantly greater than what you'd find in Britain, France, or Russia; people, however, are sheep. And the German people did have legitimate grievances and put the blame on the wrong people. If Versailles had never happened, maybe the Holocaust wouldn't have either.

Sci wrote: View Post
Sure, it was an attempted genocide, but the nature of the crime is irrelevant in describing whether or not the majority of Unjoined are responsible for it. The majority are clearly not -- it was a small terrorist organization who killed a lot of Unjoined as they tried to commit genocide, not the majority or even a large percentage, of Unjoined who committed the crime.

How can you possible hold most Unjoined responsible for the actions of a few?
Ahh yes, I'd forgotten about the bombings throughout the planet; it's been some time and the bombing of the breeding pools is what stuck with me most. Alright, consider that rescinded. Nonetheless, what do you make of the widespread riots that broke out after the President came clean of the goverment's wrongs and after the attempted genocide became common knowledge?

Sci wrote: View Post
And let's not pretend that the Joined's hands were clean. They were clearly using their higher social status to deny equal access to social and governmental power to the Unjoined.

Everyone's a victim -- the Symbionts and Joined are victims of the terrorist group, and the Unjoined are victims of the Joined's social classism.
Well obviously the hands of the Joined are bloody. It's their damn fault this whole thing came about in regards to the secrecy of milennia and the blatant use of higher social status for power and wealth. But let's also not pretend that anyone's hands are clean - even the Symbionts for their history of secrecy.

Sci wrote: View Post
Kestrel wrote: View Post
What I can hold them responsible for is thinking that symbiont partnerships could in any way be equitably disbursed and fomenting an attitude of violence that many hundreds were involved in - note the various firefights before the bombing.
Fair enough. But it's like Sisko said in "Past Tense" with regards to the Bell Riots:

Treat a man like a dog and you will get bitten.

Violence is the natural result of social oppression, overt or covert, and that's exactly what the Joined were engaging in. They were to the Trill as the rich are to Americans.

That doesn't make it okay -- but let's not pretend that anyone's hands are clean on Trill.
There's literally no way that everyone can be Joined. There will always be classism issues on Trill so long as symbiosis is a part of their society. The process can be more transparent, and society can be less dependant on the classism of the Joined and unJoined split. But there's no way to avoid some nutcase deciding he has to have a symbiont, once the population levels return to normal.
Luna: "They're quite gentle, really... But people avoid them because they're a bit..."
Harry: "Different.
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