WOTW: Did UFP make the right call? - Page 2

Anwar · July 17 2009, 01:37 PM

Also, there was a perfectly reasonable non-Dominion explanation for the coup on Cardassia: The Obsidian Order was gone, and without them the Central Command couldn't easily silence the opposition anymore and were overthrown.

Timo · July 17 2009, 01:43 PM

Let's remember that nothing was proven about whether the Detapa Council was replaced by Founders or not. Bashir administered the blood droplet test - but the same test earlier in the episode had failed to reveal that Martok was a Founder! Clearly, the test wasn't worth anything much. Indeed, it was originally suggested by a child (Odo) and supported by a Founder (Bashir) in "The Adversary", and later independently introduced by another Founder (Martok) in "Way of the Warrior"...

At best, Sisko supported one faction over another in an internal Cardassian power struggle, coinciding with an external struggle. At worst, he aided and abetted insidious Founder infiltrators. One wonders if it wouldn't have been better to let Cardassia fall. Certainly it would have been more difficult for the Dominion to stage the later invasion.

Given the known facts at the time of making the decision, though, I'd say the UFP did the right thing in not intervening: Klingons were the more important ally. And not despite because they were unreliably violent, but because of it.

I’m not sure what the point was of the silly “Tailor, take my measurements for a suit” game. When Sisko is intentionally talking about the coming invasion in front of somebody who he knows will convey the information to the Cardassians, does he think he’s not disobeying orders because he’s not addressing Garak directly?

I'd wager that Garak, being Garak, would not have accepted Sisko's evidence unless it was presented to him in this silly manner... He'd have taken it for a ruse. Now that Sisko went to all the trouble to present it as a ruse, Garak of course immediately bought it. He knew Sisko had to be serious about it if Sisko was being silly about it. That's Garak for you.

Timo Saloniemi

Deranged Nasat · July 17 2009, 01:45 PM

RobertScorpio wrote:

captrek wrote:

Gary Mitchell wrote:

The Federation Council ordered Starfleet not to interfere until they could begin talks with Gowron. Sisko took it upon himself to rescue the Detapa Council. The mission was not endorsed by the U.F.P.

I stand corrected.

Here’s a review of key quotes and events, along with my commentary.

BTW, why are color tags disabled on this forum? For legibility, I wanted to represent quotes, events, and commentary in three different colors, but I can’t. Instead I’ll put quotes in bold, commentary in italics, and [events surrounded by brackets].

[Worf learns of the Klingon plan and tells Sisko.]

Sisko: By attacking Cardassia, they think they’re protecting the Alpha Quadrant from the Dominion.

Sisko accepts that the Klingons are honest in their concerns about the Dominion taking over Cardassia.

[Sisko confronts Martok.]

Sisko: General, I want you to call off this attack.
Martok: And what do you propose we do instead? Stand by and allow the Dominion to take over the Alpha Quadrant?
There is no reason to doubt the sincerity of the Klingon Empire’s concern about the coup on Cardassia. Looking at it from the Klingon point of view, they have no choice. Like Martok says, they can’t just stand by and do nothing while the Dominion gets a huge beachhead in the Alpha Quadrant. Sisko is making a demand that the Klingons can’t possibly agree to, and doesn’t seem to realize it.

[Sisko addresses his senior staff after talking to Starfleet.]

Sisko: We’ve been ordered not to get involved.
It is the job of the top brass in Starfleet and the Federation government to make these decisions, and they made their decision. There is room for argument on whether it was the correct decision, but it’s certainly not a completely unreasonable decision, and it was made by the people who are authorized by the people of the Federation to make those decisions.
Dax: The Klingons are still our allies. If we warn the Cardassians, we’d be betraying them.
O’Brien: Besides, what if the Klingons are right? What if the Dominion has taken over the Cardassian government?
O’Brien: If we disobey Starfleet orders and warn the Cardassians, we may end up starting a war with the Klingons.
All these were certainly factors that influenced the decision not to get involved.

[Sisko defies orders and warns the Cardassians.]
I’m not sure what the point was of the silly “Tailor, take my measurements for a suit” game. When Sisko is intentionally talking about the coming invasion in front of somebody who he knows will convey the information to the Cardassians, does he think he’s not disobeying orders because he’s not addressing Garak directly?

[The Cardassian government becomes aware of the threat, thanks to Sisko.]
Sisko: They’ve [the Federation Council] decided to condemn the Klingon invasion. In response, Gowron has expelled all Federation citizens from the Klingon Empire, and recalled his ambassadors from the Federation.... The Klingons have withdrawn from the Khitomer Accords. The peace treaty between the Federation and the Klingon Empire has ended.
By disobeying orders and warning the Cardassians, Sisko may have forced the Federation to act sooner than they wanted to. Gowron’s response was certainly an overreaction, but not completely surprising, considering who we’re talking about. If Dax’s reading of the treaty is correct, it was Sisko who first breached the treaty when he warned the Cardassians about the invasion.

[Gowron asks Worf to join the invasion force. Worf says he cannot because of his oath to Starfleet.]
Gowron: What good is your word when you give it to people who care nothing for honor? Who refuse to lift a finger while Klingon warriors shed blood for their protection? I tell you they are without honor!
Given Klingon belief that the Dominion is behind the coup on Cardassia, and given Klingon values, and given Sisko’s violation of both the Klingo-Fed treaty and his oath as a Starfleet officer to obey the lawful orders of his superiors, Gowron’s position is completely understandable and completely predictable.

[Sisko disobeys orders again and arranges with Dukat to rescue the members of the Datapa Council.]
Worf: Sir, if the Klingons are right, if the Cardassian government has been taken over by the Founders...
Sisko: [interrupting] Then we’ll be helping them to escape. That’s the chance we’ll have to take.
A chance that his superiors judged was not worth taking, but who listens to them?

[Sisko and crew set out on the Defiant on the mission to rescue the Datapa council. They cloak on the way to the rendezvous.]
Bashir: Our agreement with the Romulans expressly prohibits use of the cloaking device in the Alpha Quadrant.
Sisko: You’re right, it does. But there are hundreds of Klingon ships between us and Dukat, and I intend to make that rendezvous in one piece.
Great. So in addition to disobeying orders, destroying relations between the Federation and the Klingon Empire, and possibly supporting a Dominion plot to establish a large beachhead in the Alpha Quadrant, Sisko has also taken it upon himself to breach a treaty between the Federation and Romulus and effectively send the message that the agreement will be ignored whenever it’s inconvenient. That can’t be good for Romulo-Federation relations.
Bashir: Well, I won’t tell the Romulans if you don’t.
I wouldn’t expect the Klingons to be so tight-lipped. And how else are you going to explain how the Detapa council members ended up on DS9 with a Klingon fleet hot on their heels? There’s no way Romulus doesn’t find out about this.

[The Defiant arrives at the rendezvous and finds Dukat’s ship under attack by multiple Klingon ships.]
Sisko: Arm quantum torpedoes, drop the cloak, and raise shields. We’re going in. Red Alert. Commander Worf, transmit a priority one signal to the Klingon ship. Tell them to break off their attack and stand down immediately.
Ironically, this would probably be another breach by Sisko of the Klingo-Fed treaty, if the Klingon Empire hadn’t just withdrawn from it. Still, it is still arguably an act of war against the Klingon Empire, even if the Klingons did end up firing the first shot.

[The Defiant rescues the council and hightails it back to DS9 with the Klingons in hot pursuit.]
Martok: Captain [Sisko], I demand you surrender the Cardassian council members to us immediately.
Sisko has put the Federation in a very awkward position. It is one thing to stand by and not interfere while the Klingon Empire invades Cardassia. It is quite another thing to actively participate in the conquest by handing the Cardassian government over to the Klingons. Of course, Sisko spares the Federation from having to make that difficult decision by taking it upon himself to make the decision instead of consulting with those who have the authority to make it.
Sisko: They’re not Founders, Martok. We tested them. You were wrong.
Just because the council members themselves aren’t changelings doesn’t mean the Dominion hasn’t infiltrated this government or that the coup is not part of a Dominion strategy to control Cardassia.
Gowron: It is of no consequence. All that matters is the Alpha Quadrant will be safer with the Klingon Empire in control of Cardassia.
Sounds reasonable. It would sound even more reasonable if the Khitomer Accords were still in effect. Better to have Federation, Klingon, and Cardassian space ruled by two allied powers than by three powers who all hate each other.
Gowron: Now surrender the council members or we will have no choice but to take them by force.
Sisko: And risk an all-out war with the Federation?
What outrageous hypocrisy! Sisko figures that when he and his crew commit an act of aggression against the Klingons, the Klingons are supposed to take it, but if the Klingons respond with their own act of aggression (which, as pointed out above, the Klingons are pretty much compelled to), it is the Klingons who are responsible for starting a war. Ridiculous. Sisko invited the Klingons to war; ironically it was the war-loving Klingons who declined the invitation.
Gowron: If a war starts here, the blame will be yours.
He’s right.

Gowron: [says something in Klingon]
Worf: He said, “It is a good day to die.”
Completely unrelated, but I have wondered about this. How come the Klingons usually speak in English, and when they speak in Klingon the universal translator doesn’t translate it?

[A battle ensues between DS9 and the Klingon fleet. At least eight Klingon ships are destroyed.]
Sisko: This is exactly what the Founders want. Klingon against Cardassian. Federation against Klingon. The more we fight each other, the weaker we’ll get, and the less chance we have against the Dominion.
No kidding, Benjamin. Those sound like some pretty damn good reasons to leave the Klingons alone instead of turning against them.

[Gowron, realizing his fleet is up against impossible odds, withdraws, but makes a parting comment.]
Gowron: The Klingon Empire will remember what has happened here. You have sided against us in battle, and this we do not forgive, or forget!

What a day. Sisko has repeatedly disobeyed direct orders, possibly supported a Dominion operation to establish a strategic beachhead in the Alpha Quadrant near the wormhole, turned a powerful ally into a powerful enemy, and breached a Romulo-Federation agreement. He should be court martialed.

I had to step in here (I am on vacation you know)

At no point is it ever suggested that the Founders were the cause of unrest on Cardassia. It is 'believed' to be so,by the Klingons. But Garak contacts Dukat, who is there on Cardassia, and he denies it...

So...Sisko believed the Klingons to be wrong. (Just like BUSH ended up being wrong by the way about WMDs. The show happens BEFORE Bush's invaison..but oh the similarities are there)

So I disagree..Sisko rightfully saw the Klingon invaison as wrong and broke orders to try and save the legitimate government of Cardassia. And Gowron proved he was about as unstable as a klingon could be. And if you have been watching STAR TREK, this so called "klingon honor" is a joke. The whole ordeal with Worf's dad, and the very way Gowron came to power (for all we know HE was behind the murder of KMPEC) proves that this klingon honor stuff is just a bunch of TARG crap.

Sisko did the right thing, and Starfleet recognized this by not charging him with anything...

Rob

RobertScorpio is right. Also, if I recall correctly,

Anwar · July 17 2009, 02:38 PM

Exactly, it was following up on what Lovok said in "The Die is Cast": With the Tal Shiar and Obsidian Order out of the way the only ones left to deal with would be the Klingons and the Feds.

And what happens at the start of the next season? War between the Feds and Klingons.

Martok was replaced two years before "Purgatory's Shadow" meaning it happened a little before "Die is Cast". That's probably when most of the major infiltrations happened (except Bashir).

RobertScorpio · July 17 2009, 02:39 PM

Great story though..worthy of a Klingon Opera...

Rob

Anwar · July 17 2009, 03:05 PM

"It's not over till the fanged lady sings! Wait, all of them are fanged..."

Captrek · July 17 2009, 09:49 PM

Anwar wrote:

Also, there was a perfectly reasonable non-Dominion explanation for the coup on Cardassia: The Obsidian Order was gone, and without them the Central Command couldn't easily silence the opposition anymore and were overthrown.

It is repeatedly stated by Sisko, quite correctly, that the Klingons do not have any proof that the Dominion is behind the coup. However, proof or no proof, the Klingon theory is very plausible, given the information available at the time. Even if you think it is probably not true, even if you figure the probability of Dominion involvement in the coup is just 20-30% (and it can’t reasonably be projected much lower), that’s not a chance the Federation or the Klingon Empire can afford to take, is it? Dominion control of Cardassia would be a disaster for the Alpha Quadrant. It would give them a huge advantage in the war that everybody knows is inevitable.

Given the Klingons’ sincere belief that the Dominion was much more likely than not involved with the coup, Sisko’s (and to a lesser extent, the Federation Council’s) demands that the Klingon sit back and do nothing is completely unreasonable. Look at it from the Klingons’ point of view. Could you possibly agree to those demands? They finally stopped only after the Federation made it clear that they would intervene militarily, which meant the Klingons had practically no hope of successfully conquering and holding onto Cardassia, and it would be foolish to sacrifice the Klingon military in a futile operation. But as long as you believe that the Dominion is involved in Cardassia and that you have a chance to do something about it, you have to try, despite Federation protests.

Nasat, I assume those spoiler tags were intended specifically for my sake. Thank you very much, I appreciate it.

DevilEyes · July 18 2009, 12:20 AM

captrek wrote:

Anwar wrote:

Also, there was a perfectly reasonable non-Dominion explanation for the coup on Cardassia: The Obsidian Order was gone, and without them the Central Command couldn't easily silence the opposition anymore and were overthrown.

It is repeatedly stated by Sisko, quite correctly, that the Klingons do not have any proof that the Dominion is behind the coup. However, proof or no proof, the Klingon theory is very plausible, given the information available at the time. Even if you think it is probably not true, even if you figure the probability of Dominion involvement in the coup is just 20-30% (and it can’t reasonably be projected much lower), that’s not a chance the Federation or the Klingon Empire can afford to take, is it? Dominion control of Cardassia would be a disaster for the Alpha Quadrant. It would give them a huge advantage in the war that everybody knows is inevitable.

Given the Klingons’ sincere belief that the Dominion was much more likely than not involved with the coup, Sisko’s (and to a lesser extent, the Federation Council’s) demands that the Klingon sit back and do nothing is completely unreasonable. Look at it from the Klingons’ point of view. Could you possibly agree to those demands? They finally stopped only after the Federation made it clear that they would intervene militarily, which meant the Klingons had practically no hope of successfully conquering and holding onto Cardassia, and it would be foolish to sacrifice the Klingon military in a futile operation. But as long as you believe that the Dominion is involved in Cardassia and that you have a chance to do something about it, you have to try, despite Federation protests.

Nasat, I assume those spoiler tags were intended specifically for my sake. Thank you very much, I appreciate it.

So it's OK for any military power to invade another state only on the grounds of a suspicion against its legal government?

That logic would have allowed any power in the quadrant to wage war on just about any state they decide, with the excuse that they suspect there is a Dominion infiltration in the government, without the need to provide any proof. What if the Romulan Empire had decided to attack the Klingon Empire, stating that they suspected with good reason that Klingon policies and their attack on Cardassia were the result of Changelings infiltrating Klingon leadership? Would that have been legitimate, too?

Hartzilla2007 · July 18 2009, 12:44 AM

DevilEyes wrote:

captrek wrote:

Anwar wrote:

Also, there was a perfectly reasonable non-Dominion explanation for the coup on Cardassia: The Obsidian Order was gone, and without them the Central Command couldn't easily silence the opposition anymore and were overthrown.

It is repeatedly stated by Sisko, quite correctly, that the Klingons do not have any proof that the Dominion is behind the coup. However, proof or no proof, the Klingon theory is very plausible, given the information available at the time. Even if you think it is probably not true, even if you figure the probability of Dominion involvement in the coup is just 20-30% (and it can’t reasonably be projected much lower), that’s not a chance the Federation or the Klingon Empire can afford to take, is it? Dominion control of Cardassia would be a disaster for the Alpha Quadrant. It would give them a huge advantage in the war that everybody knows is inevitable.

Given the Klingons’ sincere belief that the Dominion was much more likely than not involved with the coup, Sisko’s (and to a lesser extent, the Federation Council’s) demands that the Klingon sit back and do nothing is completely unreasonable. Look at it from the Klingons’ point of view. Could you possibly agree to those demands? They finally stopped only after the Federation made it clear that they would intervene militarily, which meant the Klingons had practically no hope of successfully conquering and holding onto Cardassia, and it would be foolish to sacrifice the Klingon military in a futile operation. But as long as you believe that the Dominion is involved in Cardassia and that you have a chance to do something about it, you have to try, despite Federation protests.

Nasat, I assume those spoiler tags were intended specifically for my sake. Thank you very much, I appreciate it.

So it's OK for any military power to invade another state only on the grounds of a suspicion against its legal government?

That logic would have allowed any power in the quadrant to wage war on just about any state they decide, with the excuse that they suspect there is a Dominion infiltration in the government, without the need to provide any proof. What if the Romulan Empire had decided to attack the Klingon Empire, stating that they suspected with good reason that Klingon policies and their attack on Cardassia were the result of Changelings infiltrating Klingon leadership? Would that have been legitimate, too?

The ironic thing is that the invasion of Cardassian space WAS the result of Changelings infiltrating Klingon leadership or at least it's military leadership.

Anwar · July 18 2009, 01:33 AM

And it was due to that same Dominion-influenced invasion that the Cardassians ended up joining the Dominion anyways. So the Klingons ended up causing what they hoped to avert.

RobertScorpio · July 18 2009, 02:06 AM

Did anyone watch this episode? The klingons invading Cardassia because of their stated reason was not why they invaded...they invaded because they wanted to go back to the old ways, and this gave them the excuse..The old klingon dude, when he got drunk, told Worf this. And later, while telling Sisko, worf agrees..

Going after supposed Changlings was just extra...bringing back Klingon pride was the main reason...Sisko was right for warning the cardassians...

Rob

Captrek · July 18 2009, 02:22 AM

DevilEyes wrote:

So it's OK for any military power to invade another state only on the grounds of a suspicion against its legal government?

I’m not talking about international law, I’m talking about survival. The Dominion presents an existential threat to both the Federation and the Klingon Empire. During the Civil War and World War II, the US government did a lot of things that would not necessarily be considered “OK” because the very survival of the nation was at stake.

Admittedly, the precedents set by such actions are not without their problems. After 9/11, George W. Bush frequently pointed to Civil War precedents and claimed that the War on Terror and the war in Iraq (which he started without good cause) gave him the right to do anything that Lincoln had done, as if there were no difference between the threat posed by the Civil War and Bush’s flimsy excuses. So you have to be careful about setting your standards, and be clear that just because something can be justified in extreme circumstances doesn’t mean it’s automatically justified in all circumstances.

Besides, I’m not advocating that the Federation actively participate in the invasion of Cardassia, merely that they stand aside. Just because the invasion may not be “OK” according to Federation standards of conduct doesn’t mean the Federation is compelled to intervene in a war between two other powers, especially when nonintervention would result in a victory for the Federation’s ally.

Come on, what obligation did the Federation have to defend Cardassia? There was no treaty between them. Does the Federation morally evaluate every war in the quadrant and intervene on behalf of the Good Guys against the Bad Guys? No. In most cases they don’t get involved. Why make an exception in this case?

Anwar wrote:

And it was due to that same Dominion-influenced invasion that the Cardassians ended up joining the Dominion anyways. So the Klingons ended up causing what they hoped to avert.

No they didn’t. The Federation did.

Like I said, Sisko’s handling of the situation left the Federation, the Klingon Empire, and Cardassian space in the hands of three powers that hated each other. That fear of the other two would ultimately drive the weakest of the three into the hands of the Dominion is not surprising.

Had Sisko obeyed orders and stayed out of it, that space would have been controlled by two allied powers instead of three antagonistic powers, and there would have been no Cardassian government in a position to hand all that strategic space over to the Dominion.

RobertScorpio wrote:

Sisko was right for warning the cardassians...

Against orders? Why do the Admiralty and the CinC even exist if captains are free to ignore any orders they disagree with? (Of course, I’m OK with Sisko disobeying orders in the simulation in The Search. Like I said above, existential threats can justify actions that would ordinarily be unacceptable.)

Anwar · July 18 2009, 05:10 AM

Or Dukat would have still managed to negotiate with the Dominion to "liberate" Cardassia and force out the Klingons which would lead to the same inevitable war we got anyways.

Either way, the Dominion were in control of the situation. The Martok Changling would have seen to it that the invasion of Cardassia would aid the Dominion somehow.

Captrek · July 18 2009, 08:41 AM

Anwar wrote:

Argh. I know this forum isn’t a spoiler free zone, but... at least Nasat spared me.

Anwar · July 18 2009, 12:34 PM

Is that a spoiler? It's been over 10 years...

View Poll Results: What should the UFP do when the Klingon Empire invades Cardassia
Intervene militarily to stop the invasion, even at the cost of the Federation-Klingon alliance	13	56.52%
Not intervene. Allow the Klingons to conquer Cardassia.	8	34.78%
other (please describe below)	2	8.70%
Voters: 23. You may not vote on this poll

July 17 2009, 01:37 PM	#16
Anwar Vice Admiral Location: Regina, SK, Canada	Re: WOTW: Did UFP make the right call? Also, there was a perfectly reasonable non-Dominion explanation for the coup on Cardassia: The Obsidian Order was gone, and without them the Central Command couldn't easily silence the opposition anymore and were overthrown.

July 17 2009, 02:38 PM	#19
Anwar Vice Admiral Location: Regina, SK, Canada	Re: WOTW: Did UFP make the right call? Exactly, it was following up on what Lovok said in "The Die is Cast": With the Tal Shiar and Obsidian Order out of the way the only ones left to deal with would be the Klingons and the Feds. And what happens at the start of the next season? War between the Feds and Klingons. Martok was replaced two years before "Purgatory's Shadow" meaning it happened a little before "Die is Cast". That's probably when most of the major infiltrations happened (except Bashir).

July 17 2009, 02:39 PM	#20
RobertScorpio Pariah Location: San Diego	Re: WOTW: Did UFP make the right call? Great story though..worthy of a Klingon Opera... Rob

July 17 2009, 03:05 PM	#21
Anwar Vice Admiral Location: Regina, SK, Canada	Re: WOTW: Did UFP make the right call? "It's not over till the fanged lady sings! Wait, all of them are fanged..."

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July 18 2009, 01:33 AM	#25
Anwar Vice Admiral Location: Regina, SK, Canada	Re: WOTW: Did UFP make the right call? And it was due to that same Dominion-influenced invasion that the Cardassians ended up joining the Dominion anyways. So the Klingons ended up causing what they hoped to avert.

July 18 2009, 02:06 AM	#26
RobertScorpio Pariah Location: San Diego	Re: WOTW: Did UFP make the right call? Did anyone watch this episode? The klingons invading Cardassia because of their stated reason was not why they invaded...they invaded because they wanted to go back to the old ways, and this gave them the excuse..The old klingon dude, when he got drunk, told Worf this. And later, while telling Sisko, worf agrees.. Going after supposed Changlings was just extra...bringing back Klingon pride was the main reason...Sisko was right for warning the cardassians... Rob

July 18 2009, 05:10 AM	#28
Anwar Vice Admiral Location: Regina, SK, Canada	Re: WOTW: Did UFP make the right call? Or Dukat would have still managed to negotiate with the Dominion to "liberate" Cardassia and force out the Klingons which would lead to the same inevitable war we got anyways. Either way, the Dominion were in control of the situation. The Martok Changling would have seen to it that the invasion of Cardassia would aid the Dominion somehow.

July 18 2009, 12:34 PM	#30
Anwar Vice Admiral Location: Regina, SK, Canada	Re: WOTW: Did UFP make the right call? Is that a spoiler? It's been over 10 years...