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Old July 15 2009, 07:23 PM   #16
Paris
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Re: The Typhon Pact

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Paris wrote: View Post
I was using the term "Khitomer Pact" to describe the group that seems to be forming. I didn't actually mean to imply that said group was going to formalize the way the Typhon Pact did. The UFP and the Klingons have been aligned for years in the Khitomer accords, and they don't share everything.
Actually in A Time for War A Time for Peace I believe it was mentioned that the Klingons and Federation share technology becasue of the Khitomer Accords.
I know they do. But they aren't alligned as one nation. They don't share an economy or a currency. The UFP and the Klingons have completely different methods, and are just allies.

Just a side note...the closest analogue to the Typhon Pact, at least as I see it, is actually the UFP. Multi-species nation under a unified governing body with like minded ideals for the future, but with its members still retaining their distinct societies .
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Old July 15 2009, 07:27 PM   #17
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Re: The Typhon Pact

Paris wrote: View Post
Just a side note...the closest analogue to the Typhon Pact, at least as I see it, is actually the UFP. Multi-species nation under a unified governing body with like minded ideals for the future, but with its members still retaining their distinct societies .
Indeed, which is why the Typhon Pact is a true rival to the Federation. It is not simply a military opponent or an ideological opponent- in a sense the Federation is now up against...itself. This is what I find so fascinating about it. What happens next...well, everyone in-story must be quite...confused.
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Old July 15 2009, 07:30 PM   #18
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Re: The Typhon Pact

At this point, the Typhon Pact is more like the Coalition of Planets in ENT. These folks are still quite new at the cooperation thing and there are going to be some growing pains. Whether they can mature into something as unified as the Federation... well, we'll see what happens.
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Old July 15 2009, 07:31 PM   #19
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Re: The Typhon Pact

Christopher wrote: View Post
At this point, the Typhon Pact is more like the Coalition of Planets in ENT. These folks are still quite new at the cooperation thing and there are going to be some growing pains. Whether they can mature into something as unified as the Federation... well, we'll see what happens.
I for one am really looking forward to the Typhon Pact series....
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Old July 15 2009, 07:53 PM   #20
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Re: The Typhon Pact

Deranged Nasat wrote: View Post
Paris wrote: View Post
Just a side note...the closest analogue to the Typhon Pact, at least as I see it, is actually the UFP. Multi-species nation under a unified governing body with like minded ideals for the future, but with its members still retaining their distinct societies .
Indeed, which is why the Typhon Pact is a true rival to the Federation. It is not simply a military opponent or an ideological opponent- in a sense the Federation is now up against...itself. This is what I find so fascinating about it. What happens next...well, everyone in-story must be quite...confused.
This is exactly why i'm exicited too . The Typhon Pact is unlike any adversary the UFP has ever tangled with. This whole thing won't be "solved" by a battle/war. A level of complexity has been added into this situation, wherein the "bad guys" are a group of people who have never been big on co-operation, but who are now aligned for their common good. They're not really "bad guys" at all. They are just like the UFP, but have nothing to do with the UFP.

With all the political action that will seemingly arise from this event, it surprises me that KRAD, who wrote the book that made this possible, isn't even writing one of the books . Articles of the Federation was amazing. It was like the West Wing meets Star Trek. You'd think he'd be perfect for this project. I'm sure there's got to be a good reason...
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Old July 15 2009, 07:55 PM   #21
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Re: The Typhon Pact

Paris wrote: View Post
Deranged Nasat wrote: View Post
Paris wrote: View Post
Just a side note...the closest analogue to the Typhon Pact, at least as I see it, is actually the UFP. Multi-species nation under a unified governing body with like minded ideals for the future, but with its members still retaining their distinct societies .
Indeed, which is why the Typhon Pact is a true rival to the Federation. It is not simply a military opponent or an ideological opponent- in a sense the Federation is now up against...itself. This is what I find so fascinating about it. What happens next...well, everyone in-story must be quite...confused.
This is exactly why i'm exicited too . The Typhon Pact is unlike any adversary the UFP has ever tangled with. This whole thing won't be "solved" by a battle/war. A level of complexity has been added into this situation, wherein the "bad guys" are a group of people who have never been big on co-operation, but who are now aligned for their common good. They're not really "bad guys" at all. They are just like the UFP, but have nothing to do with the UFP.

With all the political action that will seemingly arise from this event, it surprises me that KRAD, who wrote the book that made this possible, isn't even writing one of the books . Articles of the Federation was amazing. It was like the West Wing meets Star Trek. You'd think he'd be perfect for this project. I'm sure there's got to be a good reason...
Hmmm, yes, you're right. I do notice, though, that the one Typhon Pact member not so far mentioned as the focus of a book is the Kinshaya. Perhaps KRAD will bring us the Kinshaya-Klingon book in 2011?
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Old July 15 2009, 08:18 PM   #22
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Re: The Typhon Pact

^Hopefully. Maybe the story will be in some type of Typhon Pact anthology...
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Old July 16 2009, 02:30 AM   #23
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Re: The Typhon Pact

Thanks for the replies. There are some good points I hadn't considered already.
Christopher wrote: View Post
Basically, the motivation behind the Typhon Pact was that Bacco browbeat these nations into working together with their Federation rivals for the greater good, and it worked, and so they got to thinking, "Hey, this working-together-for-mutual-benefit thing works pretty well... but do we really need to include the Federation? If it worked for them, why can't it work for us independently of them, and make us collectively strong enough that they can't push us around anymore?"
But why all join up to side against them (the Federation)? The Feds were the ones who planted the idea of joining up in the first place. Why not join against the Tholians or the Breen? I find it very curious how a group such as the Romulan Star Empire who fought against the Dominion and suffered severe losses would so readily form an alliance with a group like the Breen who who sided with the Dominion. Storywise, it will be interesting to see a further rift growing between the IRS and RSE... but it does seem to stretch credibility a tad to suddenly be sharing currency with the Breen. I know people have pointed out that many real world nations forged alliances following wars with one another, but A Singular Destiny, pretty well the sole purpose of the Typhon Pact seems to be to serve as a thorn in the Federation's side (messing with their refugee locations, etc.). Why would the RSE join the Pact when they seem to have many more reasons to be against the Breen than against the Federation?
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Old July 16 2009, 02:59 AM   #24
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Re: The Typhon Pact

Elemental wrote: View Post
But why all join up to side against them (the Federation)? The Feds were the ones who planted the idea of joining up in the first place. Why not join against the Tholians or the Breen?
Remember the "root beer" scene in DS9? The Federation has been the dominant political and cultural power in the quadrant for a long time, and a lot of other states see it as a bullying imperialist state, no matter how benevolent it believes itself to be. If you've been an also-ran to a more powerful entity for a long, long time, if you're sick of the way they condescend to you and try to convince you they know better than you do, then you're not likely to want to join forces with them. The Federation has a way of assimilating or at least domesticating the cultures that join it, and these groups don't want to end up drinking the root beer.

I find it very curious how a group such as the Romulan Star Empire who fought against the Dominion and suffered severe losses would so readily form an alliance with a group like the Breen who who sided with the Dominion. Storywise, it will be interesting to see a further rift growing between the IRS and RSE... but it does seem to stretch credibility a tad to suddenly be sharing currency with the Breen. I know people have pointed out that many real world nations forged alliances following wars with one another, but A Singular Destiny, pretty well the sole purpose of the Typhon Pact seems to be to serve as a thorn in the Federation's side (messing with their refugee locations, etc.). Why would the RSE join the Pact when they seem to have many more reasons to be against the Breen than against the Federation?
The RSE has a much longer history of antagonism with the Federation than it does with the Breen, so their opinion on the relative number of reasons might differ.

The idea of the Pact is not merely to be a thorn in the UFP's side, but to be an alternative to the UFP, a counterbalance and competitor. So it's attracted powers that have antagonistic motives toward the UFP (like the Tholians) or toward the Klingons (like the Kinshaya) as well as those who have nothing specific against the UFP but wish to be strong apart from it (such as the Gorn). But the disruptions caused in ASD were actions taken by the individual members of the Pact, and halted and apologized for by the Pact as a whole. It's essential to keep in mind that the Pact, at this point, is more an idea, an aspiration, than a truly united front. There is no such thing at this stage as an action taken by the Typhon Pact -- only actions taken by the individual nations that have agreed to try to work together as the Typhon Pact. And those nations have their own agendas, their own expectations of what they want to get out of the Pact -- and who's in charge of the Pact. And yes, the members do have some bad blood between them. All that will be dealt with in the books.
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Old July 16 2009, 03:07 AM   #25
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Re: The Typhon Pact

So...what are the odds that the "Khitomer" allies become the new NATO, to counter the Typhon Pact (which the TrekMovie article has already likened to the Warsaw Pact)?

Next thing you know...COLD WAR!
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Old July 16 2009, 03:51 AM   #26
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Re: The Typhon Pact

Christopher wrote: View Post
Elemental wrote: View Post
But why all join up to side against them (the Federation)? The Feds were the ones who planted the idea of joining up in the first place. Why not join against the Tholians or the Breen?
Remember the "root beer" scene in DS9? The Federation has been the dominant political and cultural power in the quadrant for a long time, and a lot of other states see it as a bullying imperialist state, no matter how benevolent it believes itself to be. If you've been an also-ran to a more powerful entity for a long, long time, if you're sick of the way they condescend to you and try to convince you they know better than you do, then you're not likely to want to join forces with them. The Federation has a way of assimilating or at least domesticating the cultures that join it, and these groups don't want to end up drinking the root beer.

I find it very curious how a group such as the Romulan Star Empire who fought against the Dominion and suffered severe losses would so readily form an alliance with a group like the Breen who who sided with the Dominion. Storywise, it will be interesting to see a further rift growing between the IRS and RSE... but it does seem to stretch credibility a tad to suddenly be sharing currency with the Breen. I know people have pointed out that many real world nations forged alliances following wars with one another, but A Singular Destiny, pretty well the sole purpose of the Typhon Pact seems to be to serve as a thorn in the Federation's side (messing with their refugee locations, etc.). Why would the RSE join the Pact when they seem to have many more reasons to be against the Breen than against the Federation?
The RSE has a much longer history of antagonism with the Federation than it does with the Breen, so their opinion on the relative number of reasons might differ.

The idea of the Pact is not merely to be a thorn in the UFP's side, but to be an alternative to the UFP, a counterbalance and competitor. So it's attracted powers that have antagonistic motives toward the UFP (like the Tholians) or toward the Klingons (like the Kinshaya) as well as those who have nothing specific against the UFP but wish to be strong apart from it (such as the Gorn). But the disruptions caused in ASD were actions taken by the individual members of the Pact, and halted and apologized for by the Pact as a whole. It's essential to keep in mind that the Pact, at this point, is more an idea, an aspiration, than a truly united front. There is no such thing at this stage as an action taken by the Typhon Pact -- only actions taken by the individual nations that have agreed to try to work together as the Typhon Pact. And those nations have their own agendas, their own expectations of what they want to get out of the Pact -- and who's in charge of the Pact. And yes, the members do have some bad blood between them. All that will be dealt with in the books.
Ok. I guess I had interpretted those actions as sanctioned by the Pact as a whole and not just the Tholians.

I agree with everyone who says this should make for an interesting foil for the Federation and serve us with more political drama than strictly drama based on conflict (which we've seen quite a lot of recently). I always felt the Dominon and the Borg fit the bill as an opposite to the Federation. Whereas the Federation integrates others into their overall mosaic fabric, the Borg assimilated and was more of a melting-pot. And whereas the Federation was composed of a multitude of worlds working as equals, the Dominion was composed of a multitude of worlds but all in the service of the ruling Founders. But, I guess the Pact is unique for being even more similar to the Federation in many ways.

I'm just disappointed that Voyager can't be worked into this series. Poor old Voyager. First given a side-line role in Destiny and now shunned out of the Pact. In all seriousness, I'm very interested in the new direction Voyager is headed (being a little over halfway through Full Circle).
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Old July 16 2009, 05:22 AM   #27
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Re: The Typhon Pact

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
So...what are the odds that the "Khitomer" allies become the new NATO, to counter the Typhon Pact (which the TrekMovie article has already likened to the Warsaw Pact)?

Next thing you know...COLD WAR!
That's what it's looking like.

I think odds are high that the Cardassians will opt to ally with the Federation, if only because they followed through on the agreement in good faith arranged by Bacco and Garak (Cardassians join the Azure Nebula fleet, UFP cedes three worlds to them). My guess is that they will respect this, moreso considering that the UFP probably needed those worlds thanks to the heavy losses in the Borg attack.

I really have doubts that the Tholians will be in this very long. They absolutely hate outsiders and have no interest in contact. Right now they are pissed that the UFP strongarmed them, but if things don't go well with this Pact, they will likely give up and go back into isolation.

The fact that the RSE and IRS are on opposing sides in an even bigger galactic split makes it even MORE likely that there will be some kind of civil war between the two powers (the shooting kind). I'm sure in her arrogance Tal'Aura will try and reclaim some of the IRS' worlds by force, prompting a larger conflict.

I think that this thread has established pretty clearly what the various motivations are for each of the Typhon Pact powers to join. However, I feel like there are even more weaknesses in the Typhon Pact's membership than in the Coalition of Planets.

Here's a basic comparison of the traits of each world/species (as we know of):

Coalition of Planets
-Humans: Explorers, diplomats, thinkers
-Vulcans: Thinkers, philosophers, semi-pacifists
-Andorians: Warlike, passionate, value honor
-Tellarites: Passionate

Typhon Pact
-Tholians: Paranoid, xenophobic
-Romulans: Paranoid, scheming
-Breen: Warlike, expansionistic
-Gorn: Warlike, value honor
-Tzenkethi: Warlike, not much else known
-Kinshaya: Warlike, religious, expansionistic

I was always under the impression that the main reason that the UFP was eventually formed was because the humans helped to balance out the other species. The Vulcans and the Andorians had been basically at war until humans stepped onto the scene. Their positive relations with both sides helped to ease the tensions. Same goes for the Andorians and the Tellarites, who were frequently antagonistic towards each other.

The TP doesn't have one species that keesps the others from going at each other's throats when things go bad. My guess is that the Romulans are already hedging their bets so that if/when the TP falls apart, they get the biggest advantage of the group out of the whole thing.
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Old July 16 2009, 06:06 AM   #28
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Re: The Typhon Pact

LutherSloan wrote: View Post
Here's a basic comparison of the traits of each world/species (as we know of):

Coalition of Planets
-Humans: Explorers, diplomats, thinkers
-Vulcans: Thinkers, philosophers, semi-pacifists
-Andorians: Warlike, passionate, value honor
-Tellarites: Passionate
I think that those are gross over-simplifications -- stereotypes, really -- of the founding Coalition/Federation worlds. For one thing, you're attributing diplomacy to Humans as though it's some inherent trait. It's not. The rise of United Earth as a diplomatic power -- an "honest broker" -- came about specifically as the result of the efforts of Jonathan Archer and of the policies of Prime Minister Nathan Samuel -- policies that Samuel explicitly framed in self-interested terms when he noted in "Demons" that Earth needed alliances with other worlds to survive. That policy would absolutely not have been possible had Earth already developed any sort of interstellar reputation -- it was only possible because they were the new kids on the block.

You're also forgetting that during most of the 22nd Century, the Vulcans were in no way pacifistic -- they were, if anything, an imperial power that went about installing puppet governments that would bow to Vulcan's whims in return for Vulcan military protection and resources.

And Tellarite culture is not so much based on passion as it is on the idea that truth and good decision-making can only be found as a result of rigorous argumentation. Passion is a part of it, but passion is a part of the rest of them, too.

[quote]
Typhon Pact
-Tholians: Paranoid, xenophobic
-Romulans: Paranoid, scheming
-Breen: Warlike, expansionistic
-Gorn: Warlike, value honor
-Tzenkethi: Warlike, not much else known
-Kinshaya: Warlike, religious, expansionistic
The Romulans aren't really all that paranoid so much as they are extreme nationalists. I'd equate them to 18th/19th Century Britain more than anything else. And, yeah, they're scheming -- but no more so than any other culture. (Well, save the Cardassians. Those are Machiavellian sons of bitches.)

There's no indication that the Breen are warlike or expansionists. You might recall from DS9 that the Dominion War represented the first time the Breen had ever had significant interaction with the outside galaxy; they hadn't been engaging in conquest and expansion like, say, the Klingons.

And we have no indication that the Tzenkethi are war-like. We know that they fought a war against the Federation, but we don't know what circumstances led to that war. For all we know, the Federation might have started it. The Tzenkethi can probably more accurately be described as being intensely anti-Federation than anything else; I'd equate them with Iran under the ayatollahs and their attitude towards the U.S., m'self.

And while it's fair to say that the Kinshaya have become warlike and expansionistic, let's bear in mind that they're also the victims of attempted genocide from the Klingons -- their homeworld was literally exterminated by them.

I see no reason to consider the Tholians unduly paranoid. They were paranoid about the UFP and Klingons moving into the Taurus Reach -- and they were right, because movement into the Reach woke the Shedai and led to Federation agents committing any number of crimes. And much as we might see Ambassador Tezrene as being paranoid in her reaction to Bacco, if you look at it from her point of view, she's not wrong: The Federation really did rob the Tholian Assembly of a powerful fleet they could have used to defend themselves, and did so immediately before a genocidal Borg invasion. That's a pretty damn aggressive thing to do, especially since Bacco only did it as protection against predicted Tholian aggression, not because the Tholians had actually done anything. It's not unreasonable for the Tholians to feel like the Federation endangered their very existence; really, it might not even be unreasonable for them to declare war on the Federation in retaliation. That they reacted as calmly as they did is something of a minor miracle.

There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that the Gorn are generally warlike. The Gorn have attacked the Federation exactly twice -- once when a Federation colony was established on a world they had claimed and they believed themselves in danger of Federation aggression, and once when a pro-expansionist faction led a coup and overthrew their government. Both times they were placated with diplomacy and then good relations were restored.

I was always under the impression that the main reason that the UFP was eventually formed was because the humans helped to balance out the other species. The Vulcans and the Andorians had been basically at war until humans stepped onto the scene. Their positive relations with both sides helped to ease the tensions. Same goes for the Andorians and the Tellarites, who were frequently antagonistic towards each other.
That was a part of it. But it's probably important to also bear in mind that those cultures had to undergo some fundamental changes themselves (as did Earth). Part of the point of "Demons"/"Terra Prime," after all, was that Humanity was undergoing a fundamental cultural shift as they learned to stop being insular and to reject xenophobia and ethnocentrism. The Vulcans were undergoing a profound cultural shift with the discovery of the Kir'Shara and rise of the Syrannites. So I think it's important that we not use language that seems to imply that Humans were the magic ingredient that made everything okay -- it's a bit self-congratulatory, after all.

The TP doesn't have one species that keesps the others from going at each other's throats when things go bad.
I don't think we know enough about the TP cultures to make that judgment. It's entirely possible, for instance, that the Gorn will assume the function of the "honest broker" -- the TP equivalent of Switzerland, so to speak.

My guess is that the Romulans are already hedging their bets so that if/when the TP falls apart, they get the biggest advantage of the group out of the whole thing.
Hardly. The Romulan Star Empire is the state that needs the Typhon Pact the most. It's the RSE whose space was devastated by the Borg, the RSE that can't feed its own people, the RSE that's been plagued by political instability for years now. And it's the RSE that's surrounded by (what they believe to be) hostile powers in the form of the Federation, Klingon Empire, and Imperial Romulan State. If the Pact fails, the RSE economy goes into shambles and Tal'Aura will probably find herself assassinated. They need the Pact to stabilize their economy and begin rebuilding their military might; they're going to be the ones trying desperately to make it work more than anyone else.
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Old July 16 2009, 06:29 AM   #29
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Re: The Typhon Pact

I think, at least as we saw in 'Enterprise', it's accurate to say that humans were relatively diplomatic. None of the early conflicts between United Earth and anyone else were really Earth's fault, as far as we can tell. The Klingons obviously just distrust humans and think they are weak. The Suliban were being manipulated by another power, same with the Xindi. The Romulans were afraid that Earth could unite the rest of the area's powers (they were right) and become a possible threat to the Empire.

I was basically listing several tendencies that these various species (primarily their governments) have had in the past. I mean, is it not accurate to say that the Romulans' scheming has caused one major war and a few other smaller conflicts? I think that's fair. The Breen are still pretty unknown, but the fact that they have joined up with a larger power to fight the Federation, not once but TWICE, makes me think that they prefer war to diplomacy or negotiation. The Tholians have a history of hostility towards the Federation, but have yet to actually go to war (assuming that doesn't happen later in the Vanguard series). The Gorn are very territorial from what we have seen, but were basically at peace with the UFP until now (although you can argue that they haven't done anything to jeopardize that yet). So little has been written on the Tzenkethi that it's the hardest of all these species to know what their general relationship with the UFP is. I'm not entirely sure about the Kinshaya, since they have only appeared recently with any frequency in Trek Lit. But it seems like they are not that peaceful.
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Old July 16 2009, 06:42 AM   #30
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Re: The Typhon Pact

LutherSloan wrote: View Post
I think, at least as we saw in 'Enterprise', it's accurate to say that humans were relatively diplomatic.
Are you talking about the part where Humans tried to hijack the Martian verteron array and threatened to destroy the United Earth capital city to force aliens off of Earth? Or the part where the Vulcan and Andorian ambassadors were complaining that there were anti-alien protests going on in every major city during that same crisis? Maybe you're talking about the part where violent assaults on aliens were established to have gone up after the Xindi incident, to the point where Phlox was afraid to walk the streets at night?

The UE government did assume the rule of interstellar honest broker, but it's important to remember that Humans weren't a magic wand that made all the old fights go away just because of how awesome they were.

I was basically listing several tendencies that these various species (primarily their governments) have had in the past. I mean, is it not accurate to say that the Romulans' scheming has caused one major war and a few other smaller conflicts? I think that's fair.
Sure. But the same is true of the Klingons, Cardassians, Ferengi, and even the Federation (Tezwa).

The Breen are still pretty unknown, but the fact that they have joined up with a larger power to fight the Federation, not once but TWICE, makes me think that they prefer war to diplomacy or negotiation.
I'm not contesting that. The Breen are clearly out to establish their interstellar might since 2375. But it's important to bear in mind that they don't have a long history of expansionism or warmongering.

The Tholians have a history of hostility towards the Federation, but have yet to actually go to war (assuming that doesn't happen later in the Vanguard series).
Or, rather, have a history of reacting badly to what they perceive as incursions into their space and to things they think will cause the Shedai to be revived (and with good reason for not wanting to see the Shedai revived).

The Gorn are very territorial from what we have seen, but were basically at peace with the UFP until now (although you can argue that they haven't done anything to jeopardize that yet). So little has been written on the Tzenkethi that it's the hardest of all these species to know what their general relationship with the UFP is.
Articles of the Federation established that the Tzenkethi government basically likes to use the UFP as its scapegoat for everything that goes wrong, but that they still have diplomatic relations with foreign states and that their newsmedia can be viewed by Federates, implying relatively open borders. That's why I equate them with modern-day Iran.
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