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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old July 7 2009, 03:03 PM   #16
SilentP
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Re: Where do Trill symbionts come from?

Timo wrote: View Post
As said, no onscreen evidence. Thus, enter my interpretation:

*snip*Interesting theorey*snip*

Timo Saloniemi
Wouldn't happened to have been watching a bit of Stargate recently, eh?

Though it does paint a much more subversive version of the Trill species, I reckon would be very hard to cover up. What would happen when the Trill encounter telepathic/empathic species that might detect the subversion, or would the Trill's ability to influence thought mitigate this?
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Old July 7 2009, 03:33 PM   #17
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Re: Where do Trill symbionts come from?

Timo wrote: View Post
As said, no onscreen evidence. Thus, enter my interpretation:

A long time ago in caves of planet Trill, slimy creatures roamed the dark subterranean waterways and used electric pulses both to stun their prey, and to communicate with their own kind. A bit shorter a time ago, they had gotten very good at both stunning and communicating - and had begun, more or less accidentally at first, to communicate with their victims rather than just with their own kind. They eventually learned how to use the pulses for luring their prey in - and, later, for controlling their prey. In essence, they could "possess" more advanced creatures. Eventually, this path of evolution allowed them to refine the possession into complete bodily control, and now they were free to leave their fetid underground pools and start preying on creatures of the dry land...

Perhaps their victims included primitive apes, which then evolved into humanlike creatures - while the Trills evolved apace, constantly capturing a small portion of the ape-human population, and eventually becoming a biological fixture of the ape-human culture. They did little harm to their human hosts, as they were more valuable when used as hunting bodies than when used as food.

Or perhaps there were no apes on planet Trill originally, but the Trills were able to hone their possession skills on other species, so that when the first spacefaring humanoids arrived on the planet, they fell prey to these master hunters.

Either way, the Trills would now be in control, at least in control of small population groups. And now they would launch into a propaganda war: the population they controlled would start spreading the gospel that said the Trills were friendly and indeed beneficial, and that everybody should try one.

Eventually, this would indeed catch on, as the Trill promises were not completely empty ones. The ability to carry memories from generation to generation would exist for real. The story about the possession being "benevolent" would mostly be fabrication, though; most hosts would be under strict control, and strictly controlled to tell everybody that they were free.

All sorts of hosts would be compatible with the Trill, but they would soon develop a preference towards certain "easy" species. The spotted species typically associated with the Trills would be a favorite, for having that nice pouch on the tummy and thus requiring little in the way of surgery or violent burrowing... Regulation of the "market" would be important, though, and so all sorts of propaganda would emerge on this "compatibility issue".

The Trills would still breed the old-fashioned way, in the pools. But otherwise, they'd abandon most of their original ways, and would take nourishment not through hunting, but through very modest tapping of the gastrointestinal system of the host. They'd also become quite intelligent and civilized - and whatever they lacked in education, they could coerce out of their hosts' educations.

Timo Saloniemi
An interesting theory; it explains the original Trill from TNG very nicely. I'd make them benevolent after ancient history was over, though, to mesh with DS9. TNG's Trill can be the exception, or be a very ancient Trill.
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Old July 7 2009, 03:37 PM   #18
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Re: Where do Trill symbionts come from?

I've always been suspicious of the so-called "symbiosis" as well.

How do we know that the Trill creature's minds don't infect and integrate themselves into the humanoid's minds in the same way that a computer virus or malware installs itself on a hard drive?
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Old July 7 2009, 09:21 PM   #19
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Re: Where do Trill symbionts come from?

An interesting theory; it explains the original Trill from TNG very nicely. I'd make them benevolent after ancient history was over, though, to mesh with DS9. TNG's Trill can be the exception, or be a very ancient Trill.
I'm happy with that, too. Odan could simply have been an old and obnoxious specimen who took no pity on its hosts - never bothering to use their names as part of its own, even.

Possibly such old geezers are in control of the Trill society, though, explaining the weird dark secrets they seemingly unnecessarily protect.

How do we know that the Trill creature's minds don't infect and integrate themselves into the humanoid's minds in the same way that a computer virus or malware installs itself on a hard drive?
We could ask a host who has been liberated of his or her Trill. But Jadzia (in "Invasive Procedures") was only liberated of Dax for a brief moment, and was still suffering from post-surgery confusion, so we can't count on her testimony. Yet Riker was possessed for a while, then released, and reported few aftereffects... And if Odan really was a rude example, wouldn't it have done its very worst on Riker? Or was it so cunning as to realize that Riker would have to be released soon again, and thus held back with the subjugation viruses?

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Old July 8 2009, 04:06 AM   #20
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Re: Where do Trill symbionts come from?

Maybe it implants some it's personality permanently into the host's mind, so even if the symbiont was removed, the creature's personality would still be influencing the humanoid's mind.

Like a combination of Stockholm Syndrome and Farscape's "Harvey".
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Old July 14 2009, 07:18 AM   #21
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Re: Where do Trill symbionts come from?

captrek wrote: View Post
On a related note, why would it be so devastating to Trill society if it became known that they have a lot more hosts physically capable of hosting symbionts than they have symbionts? They’re a reasonably mature and democratic society, aren’t they?
Even mature, democratic societies will often evolve to include political elites that end up dominating that society to the exclusion of people in the lower classes.

The political elites of Trill claim that they've been perpetuating the myth that only a small percentage of the population can host a symbiont because they were worried that if it was more widely known, lots of greedy people out there would reduce the symbionts to mere commodities, to be bought and sold at will.

On the other hand... Look at it from the point of view of an Unjoined. To a member of the Great Unjoined, it could easily appear that the Joined are actively seeking to undermine the ability of most Unjoined to move up in society. Being Joined tends to give you great advantages in Trill society -- Trill: Unjoined establishes that the Joined make up the vast majority of the Trill government. The Trill Senate is mostly Joined, the Trill President is usually Joined, etc.

There's a strong case to be made that the Joined are actually only seeking to protect their privileged status within society by keeping secret the fact that most Unjoined could carry a symbiont successfully. And when people feel like political elites are keeping them down -- are actively oppressing them? The results are rarely pretty.
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Old July 15 2009, 02:05 AM   #22
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Re: Where do Trill symbionts come from?

Sci wrote: View Post
captrek wrote: View Post
On a related note, why would it be so devastating to Trill society if it became known that they have a lot more hosts physically capable of hosting symbionts than they have symbionts? They’re a reasonably mature and democratic society, aren’t they?
Even mature, democratic societies will often evolve to include political elites that end up dominating that society to the exclusion of people in the lower classes.

The political elites of Trill claim that they've been perpetuating the myth that only a small percentage of the population can host a symbiont because they were worried that if it was more widely known, lots of greedy people out there would reduce the symbionts to mere commodities, to be bought and sold at will.

On the other hand... Look at it from the point of view of an Unjoined. To a member of the Great Unjoined, it could easily appear that the Joined are actively seeking to undermine the ability of most Unjoined to move up in society. Being Joined tends to give you great advantages in Trill society -- Trill: Unjoined establishes that the Joined make up the vast majority of the Trill government. The Trill Senate is mostly Joined, the Trill President is usually Joined, etc.

There's a strong case to be made that the Joined are actually only seeking to protect their privileged status within society by keeping secret the fact that most Unjoined could carry a symbiont successfully. And when people feel like political elites are keeping them down -- are actively oppressing them? The results are rarely pretty.
I have little sympathy for the "great Unjoined" based on what they did to the symbiont population...
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Old July 15 2009, 02:18 AM   #23
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Re: Where do Trill symbionts come from?

Kestrel wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
captrek wrote: View Post
On a related note, why would it be so devastating to Trill society if it became known that they have a lot more hosts physically capable of hosting symbionts than they have symbionts? They’re a reasonably mature and democratic society, aren’t they?
Even mature, democratic societies will often evolve to include political elites that end up dominating that society to the exclusion of people in the lower classes.

The political elites of Trill claim that they've been perpetuating the myth that only a small percentage of the population can host a symbiont because they were worried that if it was more widely known, lots of greedy people out there would reduce the symbionts to mere commodities, to be bought and sold at will.

On the other hand... Look at it from the point of view of an Unjoined. To a member of the Great Unjoined, it could easily appear that the Joined are actively seeking to undermine the ability of most Unjoined to move up in society. Being Joined tends to give you great advantages in Trill society -- Trill: Unjoined establishes that the Joined make up the vast majority of the Trill government. The Trill Senate is mostly Joined, the Trill President is usually Joined, etc.

There's a strong case to be made that the Joined are actually only seeking to protect their privileged status within society by keeping secret the fact that most Unjoined could carry a symbiont successfully. And when people feel like political elites are keeping them down -- are actively oppressing them? The results are rarely pretty.
I have little sympathy for the "great Unjoined" based on what they did to the symbiont population...
"They?"

You're going to hold the vast majority of Trill responsible for the actions of a small number of terrorists?

Tell me, do you also hold the vast majority of Muslims responsible for 9/11? Of Christians for the KKK?
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Old July 15 2009, 04:37 AM   #24
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Re: Where do Trill symbionts come from?

Sci wrote: View Post
Kestrel wrote: View Post

I have little sympathy for the "great Unjoined" based on what they did to the symbiont population...
"They?"

You're going to hold the vast majority of Trill responsible for the actions of a small number of terrorists?

Tell me, do you also hold the vast majority of Muslims responsible for 9/11? Of Christians for the KKK?
It worked for the German psyche in the aftermath of WW2, which is a better analogy, didn't it? We're talking about the attempted (and nearly successful) extermination of an entire species, not an attack on a nation-state or ethnic/religious group(s). And a species with a centuries-long history of peaceful coexistence whose only crime (in this particular case) was not having babies fast enough. Of the various factions involved in that particular struggle on Trill, the symbionts (and maybe the Guardians) are the truest victims. In a sense, the Parasites got their revenge after all...

But no, I won't hold the vast majority of Trill responsible for the massacre at Mak'ala. What I can hold them responsible for is thinking that symbiont partnerships could in any way be equitably disbursed and fomenting an attitude of violence that many hundreds were involved in - note the various firefights before the bombing.

I don't hold the vast majority of Muslims responsible for 9/11 or Christians for the KKK, in part because they (the vast majority) openly condemned such actions and repudiated them. No doubt all of Trill was equally horrified by the symbiont massacre, but the Joined and those unJoined who are/were fanatical have equal blood on their hands.
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Old July 15 2009, 05:49 AM   #25
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Re: Where do Trill symbionts come from?

Kestrel wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
Kestrel wrote: View Post

I have little sympathy for the "great Unjoined" based on what they did to the symbiont population...
"They?"

You're going to hold the vast majority of Trill responsible for the actions of a small number of terrorists?

Tell me, do you also hold the vast majority of Muslims responsible for 9/11? Of Christians for the KKK?
It worked for the German psyche in the aftermath of WW2, which is a better analogy, didn't it?
It's a horrible analogy. Germany was a democracy that elected to power a totalitarian who then ended democracy but continued to enjoy widespread domestic support for his entire agenda, including rampant anti-Semitism, genocide, and aggressive war.

The vast majority of Unjoined, by contrast, were peacefully petitioning their elected government -- dominated by Joined -- for equal rights when a handful of extremists engaged in a terrorist attack using advanced technology to kill as many of the Symbionts as possible -- killing, if I recall correctly, plenty of other Unjoined in the process.

The analogy completely falls apart in attempting to describe the distribution of responsibility.

We're talking about the attempted (and nearly successful) extermination of an entire species, not an attack on a nation-state or ethnic/religious group(s). And a species with a centuries-long history of peaceful coexistence whose only crime (in this particular case) was not having babies fast enough.
Sure, it was an attempted genocide, but the nature of the crime is irrelevant in describing whether or not the majority of Unjoined are responsible for it. The majority are clearly not -- it was a small terrorist organization who killed a lot of Unjoined as they tried to commit genocide, not the majority or even a large percentage, of Unjoined who committed the crime.

How can you possible hold most Unjoined responsible for the actions of a few?

And let's not pretend that the Joined's hands were clean. They were clearly using their higher social status to deny equal access to social and governmental power to the Unjoined.

Of the various factions involved in that particular struggle on Trill, the symbionts (and maybe the Guardians) are the truest victims.
Everyone's a victim -- the Symbionts and Joined are victims of the terrorist group, and the Unjoined are victims of the Joined's social classism.

What I can hold them responsible for is thinking that symbiont partnerships could in any way be equitably disbursed and fomenting an attitude of violence that many hundreds were involved in - note the various firefights before the bombing.
Fair enough. But it's like Sisko said in "Past Tense" with regards to the Bell Riots:

Treat a man like a dog and you will get bitten.

Violence is the natural result of social oppression, overt or covert, and that's exactly what the Joined were engaging in. They were to the Trill as the rich are to Americans.

That doesn't make it okay -- but let's not pretend that anyone's hands are clean on Trill.
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Old July 15 2009, 07:04 AM   #26
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Re: Where do Trill symbionts come from?

captrek wrote: View Post
Where do Trill symbionts come from?


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Old July 15 2009, 09:13 PM   #27
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Re: Where do Trill symbionts come from?

captrek wrote: View Post
Where do Trill symbionts come from? How do they reproduce?
When a mommy trill symbiont and a daddy trill symbiont love each other very much, they make a wish, and a stork drops off a little baby trill symbiont...

prove me wrong using canon
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Old July 15 2009, 09:15 PM   #28
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Re: Where do Trill symbionts come from?

JB2005 wrote: View Post
captrek wrote: View Post
Where do Trill symbionts come from? How do they reproduce?
When a mommy trill symbiont and a daddy trill symbiont love each other very much, they make a wish, and a stork drops off a little baby trill symbiont...

prove me wrong using canon
The stork now has warp engines to reach Trill? I find this hard to believe. Show me technical manuals that prove the stork has been advanced to this degree as of the 24th century.
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Old July 15 2009, 09:42 PM   #29
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Re: Where do Trill symbionts come from?

From the production notes of Brannon Braga:

By the 24th Century the Stork will have evolved as a result of a mutation in its T-Cell into a lizard creature which is capable of travelling at Warp 10, allowing it to go everywhere in the universe simultaenously and yet bizarrely always end up where it started when it stops...
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Old July 16 2009, 03:57 AM   #30
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Re: Where do Trill symbionts come from?

They are the culmination of everything consumed by both black holes and the artist Meatloaf. There's a big giant tube in space that shoots them out. Sometimes they land on planets like the Trill home world. Sometimes they end up at Taco Bell. Either way, it's been said that they are both tangy and crunchy.
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