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Old July 14 2009, 06:27 PM   #31
Deranged Nasat
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Re: UFP & Cloaking devices (post-singular destiny with spoilers)

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Deranged Nasat wrote: View Post
Paris wrote: View Post
^It seems that they already have. As I stated earlier, in Resistance we find out that Starfleet has schematics for cloaking devices implanted in each ships computer core, and is available with an Admiral's say-so...
But until now, if an Admiral did authorize it, they'd be court-martialed for provoking conflict with the RSE by violating treaty...
Then why wasn'y Janeway court-martialed when she gave to go ahead to Worf to use a cloaking device.
Because, as others have mentioned above, the RSE was no longer a superpower at that point. It didn't matter so much if the Federation angered or offended the Romulans, as the Romulans were not in a position to pose a true threat. The Federation was helping hold the Star Empire together. As Akaar says in "Taking Wing", the Federation is simply stronger now. Well, then. The Typhon Pact changes it again, I suppose...
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Old July 14 2009, 06:27 PM   #32
rahullak
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Re: UFP & Cloaking devices (post-singular destiny with spoilers)

Paris wrote: View Post
^It seems that they already have. As I stated earlier, in Resistance we find out that Starfleet has schematics for cloaking devices implanted in each ships computer core, and is available with an Admiral's say-so...
They couldn't develop it out in the open or divert a noticeable amount of resources to the development of cloaking tech before. Now, with the UFP on the job without having to hide it, they might advance the technology well-beyond the Scimitar and what the Romulans and Klingons have.
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Old July 14 2009, 06:32 PM   #33
Paris
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Re: UFP & Cloaking devices (post-singular destiny with spoilers)

rahullak wrote: View Post
Paris wrote: View Post
^It seems that they already have. As I stated earlier, in Resistance we find out that Starfleet has schematics for cloaking devices implanted in each ships computer core, and is available with an Admiral's say-so...
They couldn't develop it out in the open or divert a noticeable amount of resources to the development of cloaking tech before. Now, with the UFP on the job without having to hide it, they might advance the technology well-beyond the Scimitar and what the Romulans and Klingons have.
What do you consider "out in the open" ? I don't think the Federation lets just anybody observe what they are working on. Things like weapons and shields are constantly being worked on, but i'm sure SF doesn't publish their new weapons or shields designs for the general public to view. That would be tantamount to handing over those spec's to their enemies, who would then have all they need to construct counter measures without even trying. The Romulans wouldn't even need spies if this were the case. Cloaking tech, just like all of the other propriotary Federation tech would be worked on under the utmost security to prevent information leaks as much as possible.
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Old July 14 2009, 06:53 PM   #34
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Re: UFP & Cloaking devices (post-singular destiny with spoilers)

Paris wrote: View Post
rahullak wrote: View Post
Paris wrote: View Post
^It seems that they already have. As I stated earlier, in Resistance we find out that Starfleet has schematics for cloaking devices implanted in each ships computer core, and is available with an Admiral's say-so...
They couldn't develop it out in the open or divert a noticeable amount of resources to the development of cloaking tech before. Now, with the UFP on the job without having to hide it, they might advance the technology well-beyond the Scimitar and what the Romulans and Klingons have.
What do you consider "out in the open" ? I don't think the Federation lets just anybody observe what they are working on. Things like weapons and shields are constantly being worked on, but i'm sure SF doesn't publish their new weapons or shields designs for the general public to view. That would be tantamount to handing over those spec's to their enemies, who would then have all they need to construct counter measures without even trying. The Romulans wouldn't even need spies if this were the case. Cloaking tech, just like all of the other propriotary Federation tech would be worked on under the utmost security to prevent information leaks as much as possible.

Oh really? That would make the Romulans really dumb then. They signed the Treaty of Algeron forbidding UFP from developing (and this involves testing) cloaking devices knowing full well that they would not be able to find out if the UFP did. That's absurd. They obviously have ways of finding out which would naturally inhibit development of such technologies.

And now, the UFP doesn't have to worry about developing and testing of cloaking (and phase-shifting) devices leading to war.

No one's suggesting that weapons and sensitive specs are "published to the general public".
Would they have secretive development programs? Sure.
But the entire alpha quadrant knows what weapons and what the capabilities are of the UFP, the Romulans, the Klingons etc. are in general (eg. quantum torpedoes, disruptors, phasers, transphasic) simply because they've been used before.
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Old July 14 2009, 07:01 PM   #35
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Re: UFP & Cloaking devices (post-singular destiny with spoilers)

Deranged Nasat wrote: View Post
Then why wasn'y Janeway court-martialed when she gave to go ahead to Worf to use a cloaking device.
Because, as others have mentioned above, the RSE was no longer a superpower at that point. It didn't matter so much if the Federation angered or offended the Romulans, as the Romulans were not in a position to pose a true threat.
That's not true. As stated above, a treaty has the force of law for either nation that is a signatory to it, regardless of the status or actions of the other nation. If Janeway gave an order violating UFP law, that would mean she was answerable, not to the Romulans, but to the Federation itself.

It's possible that the treaty or law is written to allow exceptions in case of extreme emergency, so long as the cloak is not used against any of the signatories; that's how the use of a cloak aboard Defiant could be justified (though Sisko did stretch the letter of the law considerably when using the cloak in the Alpha Quadrant). The use of a cloak against the Borg may have been permissible under the same exemption, though it's likely that Janeway would've had to submit to a hearing in order to prove the necessity of her order.
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Old July 14 2009, 07:05 PM   #36
Deranged Nasat
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Re: UFP & Cloaking devices (post-singular destiny with spoilers)

Christopher wrote: View Post
Deranged Nasat wrote: View Post
Then why wasn'y Janeway court-martialed when she gave to go ahead to Worf to use a cloaking device.
Because, as others have mentioned above, the RSE was no longer a superpower at that point. It didn't matter so much if the Federation angered or offended the Romulans, as the Romulans were not in a position to pose a true threat.
That's not true. As stated above, a treaty has the force of law for either nation that is a signatory to it, regardless of the status or actions of the other nation. If Janeway gave an order violating UFP law, that would mean she was answerable, not to the Romulans, but to the Federation itself.

It's possible that the treaty or law is written to allow exceptions in case of extreme emergency, so long as the cloak is not used against any of the signatories; that's how the use of a cloak aboard Defiant could be justified (though Sisko did stretch the letter of the law considerably when using the cloak in the Alpha Quadrant). The use of a cloak against the Borg may have been permissible under the same exemption, though it's likely that Janeway would've had to submit to a hearing in order to prove the necessity of her order.
Ah, thank you for correcting me, Christopher. My legal knowledge is very slim. So did Janeway face a hearing or not?
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Old July 14 2009, 07:47 PM   #37
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Re: UFP & Cloaking devices (post-singular destiny with spoilers)

^Maybe she did. Maybe that's why a couple of months elapse between the disabling of the Borg supercube in Resistance and her visit to it in Before Dishonor -- because she was busy dealing with the legal fallout in the interim. Alternatively, maybe there was a hearing scheduled but it became moot when she died.
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Old July 14 2009, 07:48 PM   #38
Deranged Nasat
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Re: UFP & Cloaking devices (post-singular destiny with spoilers)

Christopher wrote: View Post
^Maybe she did. Maybe that's why a couple of months elapse between the disabling of the Borg supercube in Resistance and her visit to it in Before Dishonor -- because she was busy dealing with the legal fallout in the interim. Alternatively, maybe there was a hearing scheduled but it became moot when she died.
Thanks. Both of those ideas make sense to me.
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Old July 14 2009, 09:05 PM   #39
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Re: UFP & Cloaking devices (post-singular destiny with spoilers)

disregard
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Old July 14 2009, 09:06 PM   #40
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Re: UFP & Cloaking devices (post-singular destiny with spoilers)

disregard...please delete
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Old July 14 2009, 09:08 PM   #41
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Re: UFP & Cloaking devices (post-singular destiny with spoilers)

rahullak wrote: View Post
Oh really? That would make the Romulans really dumb then. They signed the Treaty of Algeron forbidding UFP from developing (and this involves testing) cloaking devices knowing full well that they would not be able to find out if the UFP did. That's absurd. They obviously have ways of finding out which would naturally inhibit development of such technologies.
They signed and then went away for over 50 years. That sounds does pretty dumb to me. When it comes to their "ways of finding out"...unless the UFP flat out tells them, or they observe the UFP developing/using a cloak, then spies are their only other resource. It's not as if they UFP research scientists have a Romulan in the room with them while they are developing various tech. The Romulans didn't know that Eric Pressman and the Pegasus crew were testing the phase cloak in 2357 untill Picard handed it over to them in 2370.

rahullak wrote: View Post
And now, the UFP doesn't have to worry about developing and testing of cloaking (and phase-shifting) devices leading to war.
This is true. They already did this in the 2350's. On the Pegasus. War didn't happen then because the Romulans had no idea the UFP was testing their phased cloak.

rahullak wrote: View Post
No one's suggesting that weapons and sensitive specs are "published to the general public". Would they have secretive development programs? Sure. But the entire alpha quadrant knows what weapons and what the capabilities are of the UFP, the Romulans, the Klingons etc. are in general (eg. quantum torpedoes, disruptors, phasers, transphasic) simply because they've been used before.
The general public remark was kind of odd I guess . I didn't mean "the man on the street" public. I meant that they don't release UFP tech schematics to other stellar powers without a reason like an alliance or a trade etc. [/QUOTE]
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Old July 14 2009, 09:11 PM   #42
rahullak
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Re: UFP & Cloaking devices (post-singular destiny with spoilers)

Paris wrote: View Post
rahullak wrote: View Post
Oh really? That would make the Romulans really dumb then. They signed the Treaty of Algeron forbidding UFP from developing (and this involves testing) cloaking devices knowing full well that they would not be able to find out if the UFP did. That's absurd. They obviously have ways of finding out which would naturally inhibit development of such technologies.
They signed and then went away for over 50 years. That does sound pretty dumb to me. When it comes to their "ways of finding out"...unless the UFP flat out tells them, or they observe the UFP developing/using a cloak, then spies are their only other resource. It's not as if they UFP research scientists have a Romulan in the room with them while they are developing various tech. The Romulans didn't know that Eric Pressman and the Pegasus crew were testing the phase cloak in 2357 untill Picard handed it over to them in 2370.
That's the point isn't it... Pressman developed it without their knowledge its true. But he had to take extraordinary measures of security hiding it even from other admirals and the rest of Starfleet. He couldn't have diverted as much resources into the project without drawing suspicion as he could have had he not been leashed by the Treaty of Algeron.
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Old July 14 2009, 09:13 PM   #43
Paris
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Re: UFP & Cloaking devices (post-singular destiny with spoilers)

rahullak wrote: View Post
Paris wrote: View Post
rahullak wrote: View Post
Oh really? That would make the Romulans really dumb then. They signed the Treaty of Algeron forbidding UFP from developing (and this involves testing) cloaking devices knowing full well that they would not be able to find out if the UFP did. That's absurd. They obviously have ways of finding out which would naturally inhibit development of such technologies.
They signed and then went away for over 50 years. That does sound pretty dumb to me. When it comes to their "ways of finding out"...unless the UFP flat out tells them, or they observe the UFP developing/using a cloak, then spies are their only other resource. It's not as if they UFP research scientists have a Romulan in the room with them while they are developing various tech. The Romulans didn't know that Eric Pressman and the Pegasus crew were testing the phase cloak in 2357 untill Picard handed it over to them in 2370.
That's the point isn't it... Pressman developed it without their knowledge its true. But he had to take extraordinary measures of security hiding it even from other admirals and the rest of Starfleet. He couldn't have diverted as much resources into the project without drawing suspicion as he could have had he not been leashed by the Treaty of Algeron.
Pressman described, at least abstractly, a group within the Fleet that had developed the cloak. It's not like it was just him and his crew. He was just testing it...
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Old July 14 2009, 09:27 PM   #44
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Re: UFP & Cloaking devices (post-singular destiny with spoilers)

^
Either way, flaunting its development and use when the Treaty is in effect would have been a clear act of war.

And the Romulans would find out as they did in Pegasus: it's not a stretch to imagine they were tipped off by one of their operatives about the ship's capabilities. Picard gave it up its true....but the point is they were already there searching for the ship....they knew. And we didn't see in the episode the political fallout of that revelation, what diplomacy went into assuaging the Romulans.
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Old July 15 2009, 12:14 AM   #45
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Re: UFP & Cloaking devices (post-singular destiny with spoilers)

^I'm agree. Openly flaunting its existance would have been an act of war. Picard seemingly averted that, as you say, by giving it to the Romulans, much to the chagrin of SF Intelligence. I believe the political fallout was dealt with in the NF installment of the Helix storyline. I think Calhoun is asked by Nechayev (on behalf of SFI) to retrieve it...?? destroy it...?? I forget . Its been a few years.
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