UFP & Cloaking devices (post-singular destiny with spoilers)

[rahullak]

^

Well yes, the UFP is all about exploring in the open.... but its nice to know that the option exists to "hide in the shadows" to protect the ship and its crew and use this advantage in times of conflict. The Romulans can't always be relied upon to give their tacit approval for the use of cloaks if the UFP were to have a conflict with another group.

[ToddCam]

But if the Star Empire is in abrogation of the treaty, doesn't that make it void?

[rahullak]

^
I'm assuming it is. It would really help if someone could get their hands on the text of the Treaty, assuming of course it has been written.

[Paris]

^Maybe someone will write it, or at least some passages from it, in one of the Typhon Pact books

[Sci]

ToddCam wrote:

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But if the Star Empire is in abrogation of the treaty, doesn't that make it void?

As I understand it, treaties can only be voided if both sides abrogate (that is, repeal) them legally, because they assume the status of domestic law once they have been ratified.

Thus, even if the Romulan Star Empire repealed the Treaty of Algeron, it would still be binding upon the Federation, just like any piece of domestic Federation law, until the Federation repealed it.

Personally, I think it would be irrational for the Federation not to repeal the Treaty in the post-Typhon Pact landscape; the RSE is in no position to attack the Federation unilaterally (which was the original reason the Federation agreed to ban cloaks in the Treaty: to reduce tensions with the Romulans, as established in The Lost Era: Serpents Among the Ruins), and the rest of the Pact does not have a Treaty with the Federation banning the cloaking device. Meanwhile, the Federation is allied with the Imperial Romulan State, which opens up new avenues of trade and scientific exchange for developing new cloaking technologies -- and they aren't likely to attack the UFP for developing cloaking technologies.

Meanwhile, the very existence of the Pact means that Starfleet Intelligence is going to need to step up its espionage missions, and Starfleet is going to need to be able to keep up with its cloak-capable Khitomer Accord partners (especially if the other Khitomer members, like the Cardassians and Ferengi, decide they want cloaks, too). It would be irrational for the Federation not to repeal the Treaty of Algeron and allow Starfleet Intelligence to operate a fleet of cloak-capable ships for use in reconnaissance and espionage missions, particularly agent insertions and extractions.

[Deranged Nasat]

Of course, if the Federation is using cloaking devices,

can the Romulans then legally conquer Koltaari? If the Federation won't keep its side of the treaty, or if the treaty is dissolved, surely the Star Empire could decide to retake that world, particularly now they are in need of resources having lost two thirds of the empire?

[Deranged Nasat]

I think Sci just answered a part of my above comment. Thanks, Sci.

[Paris]

If more and more AQ nations were to start using cloaks, then the technology will be forced to advance pretty fast. Better sensors will be fashioned to defeat the Romulan cloak, followed by the Romulans making better cloaks, etc. etc. . Cloaking devices may end up acting as the central piece of tech in the "arms race" in this expected cold war. Just as nuclear weapons were central in our cold war. This series is going to be great

[Sci]

No prob! To dig a bit further into your question, though...

Deranged Nasat wrote:

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Of course, if the Federation is using cloaking devices,

can the Romulans then legally conquer Koltaari? If the Federation won't keep its side of the treaty, or if the treaty is dissolved, surely the Star Empire could decide to retake that world, particularly now they are in need of resources having lost two thirds of the empire?

I doubt that they'd be able to legally conquer anyone. For one, we don't know what the legal status of Koltaari is in the late 24th Century. They could be protectorates, or even a full-fledged Federation Member State. Either way, I doubt interstellar law recognizes the legality of swooping in and conquering a sovereign world.

Further, as I noted above, the Romulan Star Empire is in no position to conquer anybody. They're barely feeding their own people, and they've lost half their military to the Imperial Romulan State and an unknown percentage of what was left from that to the Borg Invasion. Even with the Pact, I doubt anyone's in a position to begin imperial projects; the Pact's first job is probably going to be to help its members rebuild and stabilize their economies, not give people a reason to sing "Hail the Conquering Typhons."

And, on top of that, we don't know if Koltaari survived the Borg Invasion; the Koltaari could well have been exterminated.

[Deranged Nasat]

Sci wrote:

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No prob! To dig a bit further into your question, though...

I doubt that they'd be able to legally conquer anyone. For one, we don't know what the legal status of Koltaari is in the late 24th Century. They could be protectorates, or even a full-fledged Federation Member State. Either way, I doubt interstellar law recognizes the legality of swooping in and conquering a sovereign world.

Further, as I noted above, the Romulan Star Empire is in no position to conquer anybody. They're barely feeding their own people, and they've lost half their military to the Imperial Romulan State and an unknown percentage of what was left from that to the Borg Invasion. Even with the Pact, I doubt anyone's in a position to begin imperial projects; the Pact's first job is probably going to be to help its members rebuild and stabilize their economies, not give people a reason to sing "Hail the Conquering Typhons."

And, on top of that, we don't know if Koltaari survived the Borg Invasion; the Koltaari could well have been exterminated.

All very good points. Personally, I never believed they would do it or that it would make sense, I just wondered if they could from a legal viewpoint.

[Christopher]

Paris wrote:

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If more and more AQ nations were to start using cloaks, then the technology will be forced to advance pretty fast. Better sensors will be fashioned to defeat the Romulan cloak, followed by the Romulans making better cloaks, etc. etc. . Cloaking devices may end up acting as the central piece of tech in the "arms race" in this expected cold war. Just as nuclear weapons were central in our cold war.

Well, that's what's evidently been happening with cloaking technology for centuries anyway, given how many different times the Federation has come upon "new" cloaking tech. Earth Starfleet encountered and penetrated Suliban and Romulan cloaks in ENT, then by "Balance of Terror" the Romulans had a new kind of cloak that was far more effective but still vulnerable to motion sensors, then by "The Enterprise Incident" they'd developed a cloak immune to motion sensors. In TSFS, Klingon cloaks created a visual distortion, but that was beaten by TUC, as was the inability to fire while cloaked. But then Spock found a way to penetrate that kind of cloak, and so later cloaks apparently sacrificed the ability to fire while cloaked in exchange for an ability to mask engine exhaust. And so on. The only way to reconcile all the different kinds of "impenetrable" cloaks which were then penetrated is to assume that a cloaking-vs.-sensor arms race has already been going on for over 200 years. The competition between detection and countermeasures has been a basic element of military confrontation going back to the earliest forms of camouflage, and it always will be.

[rahullak]

^

Yep. Now that the UFP would most likely repeal the Treaty of Algeron, they can go into developing cloak tech full fledged.

[Paris]

^It seems that they already have. As I stated earlier, in Resistance we find out that Starfleet has schematics for cloaking devices implanted in each ships computer core, and is available with an Admiral's say-so...

[Deranged Nasat]

Paris wrote:

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^It seems that they already have. As I stated earlier, in Resistance we find out that Starfleet has schematics for cloaking devices implanted in each ships computer core, and is available with an Admiral's say-so...

But until now, if an Admiral did authorize it, they'd be court-martialed for provoking conflict with the RSE by violating treaty...

[Hartzilla2007]

Deranged Nasat wrote:

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But until now, if an Admiral did authorize it, they'd be court-martialed for provoking conflict with the RSE by violating treaty...

Then why wasn'y Janeway court-martialed when she gave to go ahead to Worf to use a cloaking device.