RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 135,770
Posts: 5,216,837
Members: 24,218
Currently online: 599
Newest member: momogila

TrekToday headlines

Q Meets NuTrek Crew
By: T'Bonz on Apr 18

Pine In Talks For Drama
By: T'Bonz on Apr 18

New X-Men: Days of Future Past Trailer
By: T'Bonz on Apr 17

Nimoy to Receive Award
By: T'Bonz on Apr 17

Star Trek Special: Flesh and Stone Comic
By: T'Bonz on Apr 16

These Are The Voyages TOS Season Two Book Review
By: T'Bonz on Apr 16

Kirk’s Well Wishes To Kirk
By: T'Bonz on Apr 15

Quinto In New Starz Series
By: T'Bonz on Apr 15

Star Trek: Horizon Film
By: T'Bonz on Apr 14

Star Trek: Fleet Captains Game Expansion
By: T'Bonz on Apr 14


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Voyager

Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old July 11 2009, 01:48 AM   #2116
startrekwatcher
Rear Admiral
 
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

GodBen wrote: View Post
I should have known better, my life could have turned out so differently had I just said "no", but I trusted him so I watched The Bonding. It made me feel ill. That kid was annoying and there was a magic space alien and Picard made a speech... it wasn't anything like Michael promised me.
I love "The Bonding". It is overflowing with a plethora of wonderful individual scenes that pair varying characters in interesting dynamics whether the Data/Riker scene in Ten Forward, the poignant Beverly/Wes scene in her office, the Riker/Worf scene in Riker's quarters etc. It had a wonderfully moving speech on death by Picard. Troi was put to good use. Everyone had something to do. The mystery on the planet was intriguing.
He hated seeing me wasting my life on Enterprise, so he sent me to rehab and forced me to get past my Trek-writer dependences.
Enterprise wasn't that bad. Its Xindi arc was on par with the only two serialized arcs DS9 attempted and season four was pretty entertaining if not deep.
It was Moore nirvana. Heavily serialised, main characters getting into physical fights, tremendously flawed human beings... it was potent stuff and I loved it.
I know many love Moore but I tend to think he is overrated and a bit full of himself.

I watched BSG but I've seen serialization done much much better. For all the talk of it being arc-based there sure was a lot of filler in seasons 2, 3 and 4. Standalones aren't a bad thing despite the bad reputation they get from internet fans but the thing is if you do a standalone it had better be an interesting episode or it will be seen as filler because it pulls the viewers away from the more interesting threads of arc-storytelling.

BSG had too many weak standalones that didn't feel like they were worth pulling focus from the mythology. That said, arc-based stories don't necessarily guarantee the audience will be entertained unless they are well-written.

Really, no surprise, that the show was at its best in its first season and a half where it really was tightly serialized. In fact most of the last three seasons was less a story arc than a series of isolated character scenes stitched together.

I also found it to be pretty badly-plotted. I don't mind if the writers don't have everything planned out but the show had a bad habit of introducing an interesting thread or planted a seed and it never went anywhere.

The show also had a bad habit of not effectively balancing character and plot the way some serialized dramas like Heroes did in season one or Lost.

Also BSG wasn't very well paced. A show like Lost makes the most of every single one of its episodes by either peeling away layers, providing interesting revelations, introducing new mysteries, providing answers, testing new interesting character pairings/dynamics, advancing the plot. Those episodes were packed to the point of almost overflowing and the writers did a little bit of everything. Not a single minute was wasted because they understood they had too much to get done.

A lot of BSG episodes had a bad habit of having poor editing where the writers couldn't be efficient in their storytelling leading to critical scenes or even entire subplots to be left on the cutting room floor or worse yet never revisited because they changed their minds.

There is an effective way to do a slow burn building up to a big moment and BSG is an example of not how to do it. The better dramas have a lot of smaller INTERESTING stuff happening on the way to the BIG MOMENT.

I also found that the show tried to be a bit too artsy and instead of having a natural feel it felt forced. And this sort of thing filtered into the dramatic scenes throughout the series where instead of letting the scene stand on its own the directors/writers had it flashing in annoying neon lights that the following scene is dramatic with a capital D. It als felt at times that Moore would do something shocking just for the sake of the spectacle to the point where as the series continued it lost its effective and became a cliche. And the series had a bad habit of veering into far too much angst and melodrama.

I also found the Cylons wanting as an adversary. Compare them to the Founders or the Borg.
startrekwatcher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 11 2009, 01:46 PM   #2117
Tachyon
Fleet Captain
 
Tachyon's Avatar
 
Location: Finland
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

GodBen wrote: View Post
Tachyon wrote: View Post
I don't see how that would have added to the episodes on this season, really; what would have been the additional value of doing such a thing.
Two reasons; 1) the introduction of the Dominion was made more interesting because of how it was foreshadowed in several episodes and 2) it would have made the DQ feel more alive. I found the big bad Delta Quadrant rather dull in season 5.

Naah. I disagree. Season 5 was brilliant just the way it was.

And you are thinking about in the terms of DS9, I see.


I like Survival Instinct a lot. It is a good and solid story with an interesting concept. I give it ****½.
__________________
Avatar by Belanna.
Tachyon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 11 2009, 04:28 PM   #2118
TheGodBen
Rear Admiral
 
TheGodBen's Avatar
 
Location: Ireland
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Personally speaking, my only problem with BSG's style of serialisation was how it failed to build up to a crescendo at the season finales. For example, season 1 doesn't go anywhere in particular and then they randomly find Kobol in the finale. Season 2 had a great seven episode arc dealing with the consequences of the season 1 finale, but there was no build-up to the finale itself. The same can be said for the Pegasus just randomly showing up during season 2's mid season finale, or finding a habitable planet in the season 2.5 finale... Other than season 4 the show failed to build up to its finales, but it was very good at dealing with the consequences from those finales in the subsequent episodes.

I think that Lost is the other side of the coin; they are experts at building up momentum going into the finales but they drop the ball in the follow-up. For example, season 1 ended with a fantastic series of episodes starting with Boone's death and building up to the opening of the hatch door, but the season 2 opener was suddenly devoid of momentum, it wasn't until episode 3 that the momentum was (temporarily) restored. I think the same can be said of the opening to seasons 3, 4 & 5, although they are improving.

Overall I prefer BSG because it remained a character-centric show to the end while Lost's focus on the characters has dwindled away in favour of plot. An example from the recent seasons of both shows.



BSG is by no means perfect, and Ron Moore is certainly not the second coming of Jebus, but I like his style as a writer and the things he tends to focus on are the things which interest me most.
__________________
...so many different suns...
TheGodBen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 11 2009, 06:23 PM   #2119
startrekwatcher
Rear Admiral
 
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

re:build-up and fallout

I think it is pretty much par for the course for tv shows that follow the season long arc approach to have a slow period of readjustment after returning from the summer hiatus. You really can't expect it to outdo the spring period where the arc enters its exciting climatic stretch of payoff. I expect things to be a little slower and a little less exciting at the start of a new season as the writers have to start getting into place the new roster of guest players and new story thread and the related necessary set-up. Then as the season develops and the direction the arc is heading is revealed then of course we get the exciting resolution phase. So that really didn't bother me with Lost or BSG since that has been pretty much the format for every show I've ever watched.

I mean season 4.0 wasn't exactly riveting coming off of the spectacularly exciting "Crossroads". Same for Lost in seasons 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 opening first few episodes.

Regarding the issue you have with what happens to your favorite character well let's wait to pass judgment on that. Afterall it looks to me that the Lost writers have it in their heads that season five and season six will be treated less like self-contained volumes like season four or three were and more like halves of a large season so I tended to treat the ending stretch of season five as a mid season event than a genuine finale so it is yet to be seen the aftermath of the death. But yes I do agree that a lot of shows these days have the unfortunate habit of treating character deaths as plot points.
startrekwatcher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 12 2009, 11:19 AM   #2120
neogothboy74
Commander
 
neogothboy74's Avatar
 
Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan, United States
Send a message via AIM to neogothboy74 Send a message via Yahoo to neogothboy74
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Let's see. I remember thinking Janeway was insane (again) in 'Equinox', but as we'd been there before this didn't surprise me. I wasn't as involved in that storyline though...I did enjoy it more the 2nd time around, on DVD. But as this was Voyager, I didn't expect the newbies to ever be seen again, which is sad. I would have loved to have been surprised.

I've always liked "Survival Instinct". I like that the solution to the problem doesn't seem to pull any punches. It would have been nice to see Marika's stay on Voyager and experience her death, but this being Voyager, I didn't expect this by this point, and just enjoyed the episode on it's own.

Also. LOVE BSG. Looking forward to the 3 extended cuts on the dvds. Annoyed the recent webisodes aren't included. Really looking forward to "The Plan". Really looking forward to Caprica.

And for any Whoniverse peeps, do what you can to check out Torchwood's latest ("Children of Earth"); I thought it was spectacular. Not perfect, but much of it better than anything they've done before (both Torchwood and Who). The final installments had me in tears. I think BSG fans would dig it.
neogothboy74 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 12 2009, 03:11 PM   #2121
TheGodBen
Rear Admiral
 
TheGodBen's Avatar
 
Location: Ireland
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Barge of the Dead (**½)

I was tired when watching this episode so maybe this explain why I don't have a clue what it was about. The ending seems to suggest that B'Elanna has made a huge breakthrough that will significantly change who she is, but what was the breakthrough about? What did she learn about herself? Is she really going to be a different person from here on out? Why? Am I just being dumb for not seeing it?

I'm not normally the sort of person who gets annoyed about Klingon episodes, I usually like the Klingons, but in this instance I found all the Klingon stuff to be boring. The best part of the episode was in the middle as B'Elanna struggles to understand the meaning of what she saw in her near-death experience, but I just found the ending to be a mess of confusing imagery. Maybe I was too tired to understand it, I don't know.
__________________
...so many different suns...
TheGodBen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 12 2009, 04:33 PM   #2122
startrekwatcher
Rear Admiral
 
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I'd give Barge of the Dead 2.5 stars out of 4.

I'm just not one of those people who likes episodes where things happen inside a character's head as a means to enlighten us on who they are with a lot of imagery and symbolism. I also have never been too crazy about spiritual mumbo-jumbo either. This sorta felt like a Klingon version of "Mortal Coil" with a dash of "Nothing Human", "Coda", "Tapestry" and "Day of Honor". Also after DS9 and TNG, I was tired of the Klingon episodes. According to Moore this was a story idea he wanted to do on DS9 in season five that ultimately became "Soldiers of the Empire" and ultimately Fuller grabbed it.

I also found this episode to be one of those outings that you can appreciate in an intellectual way--the imagery, the subject matter-- but because it is presented in such a dry manner it fails as entertainment and therefore fails to really hold my attention. That isn't to say you can't do something that is enjoyable and also is intellectually-stimulating.

Season seven sorta hints that this experience was real as we learn her mom really did die. So maybe it really wasn't all in her head. I was also perturbed by yet another coincidence of another Alpha Quadrant artifact in the Delta Quadrant--the Klingon bat'leth--but since it was in her head I'll let it slide. But the VFX were beautiful.

I have to chalk this up as another middling Fuller effort with a little help from Moore.
GodBen wrote: View Post
I was tired when watching this episode so maybe this explain why I don't have a clue what it was about. The ending seems to suggest that B'Elanna has made a huge breakthrough that will significantly change who she is, but what was the breakthrough about? What did she learn about herself? Is she really going to be a different person from here on out? Why? Am I just being dumb for not seeing it?
I thought it was pretty obvious--she has always struggled with her identity, her sense of self and where she fits in. Is she a Maquis? a Starfleet officer? a rebel or a terrorist? a Klingon or human? She clearly has tried to be everything to everyone and she has never been happy because of it. Here she learns she can just be B'elanna and true to herself.
startrekwatcher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 12 2009, 07:10 PM   #2123
Pemmer Harge
Fleet Captain
 
Location: Between the candle and the star
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I thought Warhead was all right, but somehow not all that compelling. I guess my problem is that I just don't find Harry Kim very interesting. Also, it bugs me how he gets to lord it over the redshirts just because he's a main character! Picardo was really good in this episode though. What a guy.
I've only seen the first part of Equinox, but I've got to say "wow". Voyager is not normally anywhere near as good as this. Of the season 5 episodes I've seen, only Latent Image was comparable to this. "I tried to focus on the work".
Pemmer Harge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 12 2009, 09:48 PM   #2124
Seven of Five
Commodore
 
Seven of Five's Avatar
 
Location: Staffordshire, UK
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Now see, I'd give 'Survival Instinct' 3.5/5, and 'Barge of the Dead' a 4.5/5.

'Survival' was a good effort. It was good to go into Seven's past where she once had her individuality resurfacing, became scared of what she saw, and reassimilated herself and her friends back into the collective. I'm not sure the fluidity of the reveal is quite right, but the interaction between Two, Three and Four of Nine was interesting. A bit technobabbly towards the end, but otherwise solid.

'Barge,' to me, was much more interesting, much more involving than the previous ep, and was a really good episode for B'Elanna. I loved all the Klingon mythical jargon - the setting was top notch. B'Elanna grappled with her Klingon heritage to help her mother get into an afterlife she doesn't necessarily believe in, and I loved it.

It was nice to see Voyager spend so time on a character episode that didn't involve Janeway, Seven or The Doctor. B'Elanna really was all over the map in season 5 which I never appreciated, so I was happy with this episode.
__________________
Other prisons do Shakespeare and shit. I want to play a role, like Desdemona or Ophelia or Clair Huxtable.
Seven of Five is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 12 2009, 10:56 PM   #2125
Furtados_Feet
Lieutenant
 
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Wow, what a great review of "Barge of the Dead" you just did. "It could have been good but I was too tired so I don't really know", I'm so glad I've been following your reviews...maybe I'm just addicted to things with star ratings.
Well I felt compelled to register because I can not believe you gave it a 5/10.
This episode is not only one of the finest episodes Voyager ever did but was also one of the finest episodes of Trek ever done.
I'll be the first to admit I was sick to death of Klingons after DS9 but this story is simply so well written, constructed and acted that I completely forgot about my aversion to Klingons. You seem to be marking this episode down because you're not sure that the episode will have an effect on B'Ellana's behaviour later. What kind of way is that to mark an episode? Mark it on its own merits and how it was acted and written.
You also seem to be confused by the ambiguity of the episode, but that was the whole point, even B'Ellana didn't know what was going on but she was ready to take a leap of faith and battle with her inner demons and her past problems because she is now ready too.
A lot of things about Voyager annoy me and the continuity infuriated me no end but there is no doubt this was a superb episode that was the jewel in the bright shiny crown that was the very beginning of season 6.
I hope you start putting some effort back into your reviews or at least take a break, you seem to be getting so fatigued you don't know a fine episode when you see one.
Furtados_Feet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 12 2009, 11:09 PM   #2126
SJSharksfan39
Admiral
 
SJSharksfan39's Avatar
 
Location: Clone Club
View SJSharksfan39's Twitter Profile
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

GodBen,

I would suggest watching Barge of the Dead again, when you are wide awake. If you still feel like it's a 2.5 star episode, than that's your perogative, but to lower an episode (And in my opinion one of Voyager's best episodes) down because you were asleep at the time, that's not fair.
__________________
Twitter
SJSharksfan39 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 12 2009, 11:47 PM   #2127
startrekwatcher
Rear Admiral
 
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

What more do you guys really want to hear from GodBen about "Barge of the Dead"?

He said he found a lot of it boring. Usually when I find an episode boring or not to my liking I really don't have all that much to rave on about it because well...you know..it didn't hold my attention.

Ask me to write a review for an episode I really enjoyed and I could wax on indefinitely about a certain character scene that was really affecting or how beautiflly assembled the episode was or what a bit of clever writing it possessed. Ask me to talk about a dull episode and I really can't muster that much to say about it. That seems to be the case with this particular review. Which come to think of it I haven't had a lot to say for a lot of the VOY episodes as I look back thanks to this thread I guess that says something about Voyager.

Now if you start a thread in TNG about that show my posts would encompass multi-paragraphs about most episodes from seasons 3-6 and even some in the first two seasons like "Q Who" or "The Measure of a Man".
startrekwatcher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 12 2009, 11:49 PM   #2128
SJSharksfan39
Admiral
 
SJSharksfan39's Avatar
 
Location: Clone Club
View SJSharksfan39's Twitter Profile
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Not too much. I just wanted to know if he would have the same opinion if he wasn't tired. That's all.
__________________
Twitter
SJSharksfan39 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 12 2009, 11:51 PM   #2129
startrekwatcher
Rear Admiral
 
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

tomalak301 wrote: View Post
Not too much. I just wanted to know if he would have the same opinion if he wasn't tired. That's all.
Well judging from his opinions on the episodes of Voyager thus far, he and I seem to share a lot of the same opinions so I'll back him up on his review since I was wide awake when I watched it and I felt the same way.
startrekwatcher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 13 2009, 01:27 AM   #2130
TheGodBen
Rear Admiral
 
TheGodBen's Avatar
 
Location: Ireland
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Furtados_Feet wrote: View Post
Well I felt compelled to register because I can not believe you gave it a 5/10.
Oh no, it's Remember all over again! At least I'm sober this time.

Okay, my review for Barge of the Dead was murky with the details so I think I should clarify; I wasn't tired when I first started watching the episode, I was tired by the final five minutes or so. I watched it at around 7PM when I'm usually wide awake, I had just eaten and that normally has the effect of waking me up, and I had a good long lie-in that morning, so all the evidence seems to be suggesting that it was the episode itself that was making me tired.

I'm not down on Bryan Fuller as a writer (although I was disappointed in the episodes he wrote in season 5) and you all know how I feel about Ron Moore who provided the story for the episode, I just don't trust that the symbolism of this episode meant anything. Why does B'Elanna need to go through an almost incomprehensible near-death experience in order to figure out that she should just be herself? Here you go, I just saved her from almost killing herself.

You seem to be marking this episode down because you're not sure that the episode will have an effect on B'Ellana's behaviour later. What kind of way is that to mark an episode?
That's what I have to do, what I always do. I turned death into a fighting chance to live.



Seriously, I always deduct marks from episodes that suggest a big change has just occurred with no follow-up in subsequent episodes, I just used to do it retroactively whereas now I do it proactively. Just look at my review for Equinox, Part 2, I deducted a point for never bringing up the Equinox crewmembers again. Tell you what, if I notice a marked difference in B'Elanna's attitude for the rest of this season I'll give this episode an extra half-star, deal?

Right, let's move onto something more fun.


Tinker Tenor Shmully Spy (****)

I cannot deny, this episode made me laugh on a number of occasions, it is easily my favourite of the "light" Voyager episodes so far. Even a simple line where Shmully fantasises about Neelix giving him a cake made me laugh due to Robert Picardo's fantastic delivery. This whole episode works for me because Picardo has the comic timing to make it work.

Two issues. This is probably the third or fourth time where Shmully has adapted his problem without informing anyone and it led to serious problems, this guy really needs to learn Einstein's definition of insanity. Secondly, the whole issue of Shmully feeling like he is being treated as a second class citizen seems to have cropped up out of nowhere again, and Janeway giving in to his request to explore the concept of the Emergency Command Hologram is a bit of a reach for me.

But those two things aren't serious enough to stop me enjoying a scene where B'Elanna, Seven and Janeway vie for Shmully's affections, or the absurdly brilliant command pips. Okay, brilliant might be an overstatement, but it did make me chuckle.
__________________
...so many different suns...
TheGodBen is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 09:41 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.