RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 140,199
Posts: 5,436,817
Members: 24,948
Currently online: 494
Newest member: TedCarchidi

TrekToday headlines

Trek Screenwriter Washington D.C. Appearance
By: T'Bonz on Oct 23

Two Official Starships Collection Ships
By: T'Bonz on Oct 22

Pine In New Skit
By: T'Bonz on Oct 21

Stewart In Holiday Film
By: T'Bonz on Oct 21

The Red Shirt Diaries #8
By: T'Bonz on Oct 20

IDW Publishing January Comics
By: T'Bonz on Oct 20

Retro Review: Chrysalis
By: Michelle on Oct 18

The Next Generation Season Seven Blu-ray Details
By: T'Bonz on Oct 17

CBS Launches Streaming Service
By: T'Bonz on Oct 17

Yelchin In New Indie Thriller
By: T'Bonz on Oct 17


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Lounges & General Chat > Miscellaneous

Miscellaneous Discussion of non-Trek topics.

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old July 10 2009, 04:31 AM   #76
Nerys Ghemor
Vice Admiral
 
Nerys Ghemor's Avatar
 
Location: Cardăsa Terăm--Nerys Ghemor
Re: Misc - Several issues - Misc Posters Read!

sidious618 wrote: View Post
trampledamage wrote: View Post
So, if the moderators are receiving enough complaints that they think there is a prevailing culture of sexism (humourous or otherwise) and not just isolated train-wrecks of threads or posts, then we all need to look to how we respond and joke and maybe dial it back a bit.
I absolutely agree, I'm just pissed that my post (well, half of it) is quoted in the OP when it was meant to have the opposite effect.
Sorry, but the best way to deal with something like that is to either CLEARLY state your displeasure, or do not go anywhere near it. I'm afraid you set yourself up for that and even if it doesn't reflect sexism, it reflects poor judgment.

Overall, I think this is a clear example that even if some people may have MEANT nothing bad, clearly people need to think more carefully before hitting "post."
__________________
Are you a Cardassian fan, citizen? Prove your loyalty--check out my fanfic universe, Star Trek: Sigils and Unions. Or keep the faith on my AU Cardassia, Sigils and Unions: Catacombs of Oralius!
Nerys Ghemor is offline  
Old July 10 2009, 04:34 AM   #77
sidious618
Admiral
 
sidious618's Avatar
 
Location: New York, US
Send a message via AIM to sidious618
Re: Misc - Several issues - Misc Posters Read!

Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
Sorry, but the best way to deal with something like that is to either CLEARLY state your displeasure, or do not go anywhere near it. I'm afraid you set yourself up for that and even if it doesn't reflect sexism, it reflects poor judgment.
I've never been banned. I've never recieved a warning. I don't even think I've ever recieved a friendly. When people post about their problems on here I always try to help out in their threads. So because of one post that was misunderstood I'm now at the top of the forum in this thread and somehow I set myself up for this?

Really?

I've been a damn good poster on these boards so don't tell me about poor judgment.
__________________
We've met before, haven't we?
sidious618 is offline  
Old July 10 2009, 04:36 AM   #78
The Elephant's Graveyard
Clone
 
The Elephant's Graveyard's Avatar
 
Location: trampledamage has mysteriously disappeared...
Re: Misc - Several issues - Misc Posters Read!

Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
sidious618 wrote: View Post
trampledamage wrote: View Post
So, if the moderators are receiving enough complaints that they think there is a prevailing culture of sexism (humourous or otherwise) and not just isolated train-wrecks of threads or posts, then we all need to look to how we respond and joke and maybe dial it back a bit.
I absolutely agree, I'm just pissed that my post (well, half of it) is quoted in the OP when it was meant to have the opposite effect.
Sorry, but the best way to deal with something like that is to either CLEARLY state your displeasure, or do not go anywhere near it. I'm afraid you set yourself up for that and even if it doesn't reflect sexism, it reflects poor judgment.

Overall, I think this is a clear example that even if some people may have MEANT nothing bad, clearly people need to think more carefully before hitting "post."
Equally, people should also look at a post and think "hmm... maybe that was just a badly thought-out joke" and give other posters the benefit of the doubt.
__________________
Space is disease and danger wrapped in darkness and silence - Dr. McCoy

And he says that like it's a bad thing...
The Elephant's Graveyard is online now  
Old July 10 2009, 04:46 AM   #79
Nerys Ghemor
Vice Admiral
 
Nerys Ghemor's Avatar
 
Location: Cardăsa Terăm--Nerys Ghemor
Re: Misc - Several issues - Misc Posters Read!

With something that blatant, and in that kind of context...frankly, either it was posted knowing full well what it would mean to people, or it was bad judgment. In cases where there was no "prior record," I am certainly much more willing to consider it a lapse in judgment rather than malicious intent. But ignoring it does not help anyone learn from it.
__________________
Are you a Cardassian fan, citizen? Prove your loyalty--check out my fanfic universe, Star Trek: Sigils and Unions. Or keep the faith on my AU Cardassia, Sigils and Unions: Catacombs of Oralius!
Nerys Ghemor is offline  
Old July 10 2009, 04:52 AM   #80
sidious618
Admiral
 
sidious618's Avatar
 
Location: New York, US
Send a message via AIM to sidious618
Re: Misc - Several issues - Misc Posters Read!

Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
With something that blatant, and in that kind of context...frankly, either it was posted knowing full well what it would mean to people, or it was bad judgment. In cases where there was no "prior record," I am certainly much more willing to consider it a lapse in judgment rather than malicious intent. But ignoring it does not help anyone learn from it.
Did you just completely ignore my explanation earlier?
__________________
We've met before, haven't we?
sidious618 is offline  
Old July 10 2009, 04:54 AM   #81
The Elephant's Graveyard
Clone
 
The Elephant's Graveyard's Avatar
 
Location: trampledamage has mysteriously disappeared...
Re: Misc - Several issues - Misc Posters Read!

I'm not suggesting ignoring it. Ignoring it is what happened with the Palin thread, until it became a complete train-wreck and now we have this thread.

A post in response to say something along the lines of "if you were trying to be funny, it wasn't" or "if you're being serious then -<insert serious argument here>-" would let everyone know that you think there's a problem.


EDIT: To be clear, I know you, Nerys Ghemor, did do that in the Palin thread - but in general, I'm not suggesting ignoring what you find unacceptable, but giving the benefit of the doubt and then raising a question of "is this a joke?" to allow a chance for apology.
__________________
Space is disease and danger wrapped in darkness and silence - Dr. McCoy

And he says that like it's a bad thing...

Last edited by The Elephant's Graveyard; July 10 2009 at 04:59 AM. Reason: I need to get some sleep, I'm not making sense :o)
The Elephant's Graveyard is online now  
Old July 10 2009, 06:02 AM   #82
Kestra
Vice Admiral
 
Kestra's Avatar
 
Re: Misc - Several issues - Misc Posters Read!

T'Bonz wrote: View Post
I have had multiple complaints lately from women on our BBS about the tone in this (and sometimes other) forums. Some women feel unwelcome and uncomfortable on parts of the board, due to a very nasty tendency of some men (note the "some") to express themselves in a way that makes women uncomfortable.
I usually don't chime in on issues like this, but I'm a little bothered at how it all seems to be about women being offended. MISC has seemed pretty okay to me lately, except for that one thread about Palin. And the remarks in that thread had more to do with her being an unpopular political figure than her being a woman. People post offensive things about public figures all the time; it took a different (and uncommon) turn this time because it happened to be about an attractive female.

I'm not saying that there isn't sexist stuff said in MISC. But it goes both ways, and it doesn't seem quite fair to single out men in that thread alone. Let's be realistic, there are plenty of things that could make a woman or a man uncomfortable in various threads and forums.

I think in this case the comments did cross a line and perhaps it would have been better to just acknowledge that the thread took a bad turn and perhaps the moderators should have closed it up a little sooner, or whatever it is that you moderators do.

Holdfast wrote: View Post
Without dredging private BR stuff into the public domain, I certainly feel able to add my voice in public to those feeling that the idea of extending "flame protection" to public figures is very much a bridge too far in terms of moderation.
I think I agree with this. You don't want the general tone of any thread to be terribly hostile, but it seems unreasonable to moderate comments about public figures to the same extent that you would moderate comments about fellow posters. That doesn't mean a free for all either, of course.

Don't know if any of this makes sense, but as a frequent poster in MISC, I wouldn't want to see any large shifts in policy.
Kestra is offline  
Old July 10 2009, 06:13 AM   #83
T'Devilish
T'Bonz - Romulan Curmudgeon
 
T'Devilish's Avatar
 
Location: Across the Neutral Zone
Re: Misc - Several issues - Misc Posters Read!

Squiggyfm wrote: View Post
Sweet! I got a mention!

I'll add humor to the things that aren't allowed in here.

1. Fat people (or mentioning that fat people do exist. We're all God's beautiful creatures (whoops, shouldn't mention God...that might make someone feel icky))
2. Making people feel icky.
3. Speaking ill of our glorious politicians.

Well done. I'll inform the Chariman. Might wanna start censoring the avatars of certain people who have Obama terrorist fist jabbing Amademajad with a mushroom cloud in the back ground...lest the moderation of this board seem biased.

But we all know that isn't the case.

Counting down until this is locked...
Speaking of a lack of humor.

Look, many of the things in that thread were ugly (and I don't even like Palin!) The problem is two-fold:

1 - the sexist stuff. It's getting really bad. I'm getting MULTIPLE complaints mainly from women, and no, they're not from thin-skinned women.

Some locker room type discussion was in there. I'm lewd, crude and rude and if it makes ME wince, it's bad.

2. Political discussion. We have TNZ. TNZ is lovely that if you don't like a politician, you can let 'er rip. Political discussion in Misc is supposed to be more, well, discussion.

Squiggy, I'm being told, loudly and clearly, that some of the postings in Misc are making multiple people uncomfortable. Oh, they don't come on here and whine, nor do they fight with some of you. They just leave, or they come to some of us privately, asking for help.

Telling them basically to fuck off, or get a humor transplant ain't the answer. In TNZ, since it's opt-in and more freewheeling, people join with that knowledge and if they can't deal, they can opt out. Misc was never meant to be that way.

It's not hard to discuss politics without delving into personal attack. I don't mean legitimate criticism or even legitimate anger/frustration over political issues, I mean the personal attacks for no reason with each successive poster trying to top each other in nastiness. That's not really discussion, is it?

We've provided TNZ for people to express themselves in negative ways if they feel like it. It's a great place to do that if you feel the need and those who don't like that type of thing know that they need to stay away if that is the case. Misc isn't TNZ and I don't want the same non-discussion behaviors dragged into it. We really don't need two TNZs.
__________________
Live long and suffer! - Ancient Romulan greeting.

Romulans aren't paranoid. We're merely proactively cautious.
T'Devilish is offline  
Old July 10 2009, 06:21 AM   #84
sidious618
Admiral
 
sidious618's Avatar
 
Location: New York, US
Send a message via AIM to sidious618
Re: Misc - Several issues - Misc Posters Read!

Did you see the post I made about my quote? It's a few pages back. I'd appreciate it if you removed it from the OP.
__________________
We've met before, haven't we?
sidious618 is offline  
Old July 10 2009, 06:53 AM   #85
Hermiod
Admiral
 
Hermiod's Avatar
 
Re: Misc - Several issues - Misc Posters Read!

T'Bonz wrote: View Post
1 - the sexist stuff. It's getting really bad. I'm getting MULTIPLE complaints mainly from women, and no, they're not from thin-skinned women.
In the immortal words of Jamie Hyneman - Well, there's your problem.

Were these complaints directed via the notify button or did they just bypass the process and PM you directly ?

I seem to remember receiving a warning for not following the process last year.

Alidar Jarok wrote: View Post
Maybe you should worry about it when it's actually a problem and, for now, focus on what this thread is about.
I picked one example and I thought sexist comments and behaviour was the focus of what this thread is about.
Hermiod is offline  
Old July 10 2009, 07:10 AM   #86
Rainbow Dash
Rainbow Horse Man
 
Rainbow Dash's Avatar
 
Location: J. Allen's House
Send a message via ICQ to Rainbow Dash Send a message via AIM to Rainbow Dash Send a message via Windows Live Messenger to Rainbow Dash Send a message via Yahoo to Rainbow Dash
Re: Misc - Several issues - Misc Posters Read!

After reading through the original threads, some of those are indeed taken out of context. That doesn't mean "Hey, awesome face raping!" but it does mean there's more than what's on the surface. That being said, TNZ really is always open for political discussion, and gets a far worse reputation than it deserves. Yes, we're a rowdy bunch of badass Gods among men, but we do delve into very serious debate and discussion. You see, TNZ is almost exactly like Misc save for one thing: We don't tolerate ignorance. If you throw out paint chip levels of stupid, we'll call you on it. If you don't, you're fine. Usually, the people who want to troll Misc go and do it in TNZ until they get kicked out or bored, and then they prey on the innocent posters of Miscellaneous. So really, TNZ as an alternative isn't a bad choice.

Better to rule in Hell than serve in Heaven.

Oh wait, should I have ended that post with something else?

J.
__________________
I think heaven is what you make it. When I close my eyes for the final time, I hope to wake up standing in a grassy, breezy, sunlit field, a green tennis ball at my feet, and a little black lab, with a white diamond on her chest, running right towards me.
Rainbow Dash is offline  
Old July 10 2009, 11:48 AM   #87
I Am Groot
I Am Groot
 
I Am Groot's Avatar
 
Location: I Am Groot
Re: Misc - Several issues - Misc Posters Read!

I'd like to address some points.

Hermiod, get a blog. If your sexism towards men issue ever actually becomes a significant problem here outside of one poster who also happens to be you constantly harping on it, then get back to us. Otherwise, stop derailing unrelated threads with it and making everything about your personal crusade. It's to the point now where we want to have a discussion with the female posters about sexism issues (this has been an issue behind the scenes for a long time) but hesitate because we know you'll make it all about your little pet peeve inside of ten posts and won't let it go when asked. I think you've proven our concern accurate in this thread. I'm not going to argue with you about it in here after this, because that would quite frankly be a waste of time and would further derail the thread, but seriously, enough already.

Squiggy's "watch me as I rape your face" comment was not in any way sexist in nature if you actually look at it in context and don't just post it as a single line under the heading "Sexist Crap." He used it like "watch me as I destroy your argument" in a post directed at a male poster who was being particularly obtuse and followed it up with plenty of on-topic content to back up his argument. I asked him to stop after said poster complained, not because I thought it was actually sexist or in any way serious, just because if we're being consistent it was a personal comment directed at that poster and as such was not allowed. Squiggy stopped after that and that comment in no way had anything to do with the later sexual comments towards Sarah Palin, and to imply a connection is misleading at best.

I don't see how "I'm stretching for ya, dontcha know" is in any way a sexist comment. It's just referring to the content of the pictures posted.

Sidious already explained the reasoning behind his comment, and why he thinks it should be removed. It was playing off another related comment, and he acknowledged that they should stop. So, I'll let that stand with his own argument.

One comment was about the tightness of Palin's outfit. Borderline, but not directed at a poster here, which would put it in a whole new light. We've had discussions about how tight Troi's outfit was in certain episodes without any issues being raised.

Now, the other three comments were all Garak's, and that's really the heart of the issue here. I agree that it was way over the line. I think the primary reason Garak said it was not to express a sexual attraction to Palin (though he probably does have one) but more to get a rise out of Palin supporters. I could be wrong, but that's how it came off to me. So it's probably trolling, and definitely sexist even if that wasn't his primary intent, because it seeks to make a woman purely a sexual object for his gratification. Plus, the comment by itself was way over the line and not in any way comparable to just saying "I think Sarah Palin is hot."

How this somehow got extended to not being able to insult politicians is beyond me, and I'd like to make it clear that I don't support it. If Palin says people in big cities aren't "real Americans" I've got no problem if someone wants to insult her if they can back it up with some on-topic content. If Obama raises taxes on the middle class after promising not to, and a poster calls him "a lying jackass" I've got no problem with that either if they can again back it up. "Obama is a jackass because..." is fine. I might disagree with you, but I'm not going to warn you for it. Hell, if you can call Obama "der fuhrer" and actually make a cogent argument stating why he is comparable to Hitler I'll even let that pass without a warning. I probably won't appreciate your comment, and I might give you a friendly to tone it down, but if you actually made an attempt to back up the insult instead of just saying it outright as an insult unto itself, I doubt that I'll warn you for it.

What won't pass is comments just designed to piss people off with little or no content to back it up. That's trolling, and it's an existing rule that doesn't need extra draconian extensions about insulting politicians or celebrities tacked onto it in order to be applicable.
__________________
We are Groot and Locutus of Bored.

Last edited by I Am Groot; July 10 2009 at 02:02 PM.
I Am Groot is offline  
Old July 10 2009, 12:00 PM   #88
RoJoHen
Awesome
 
RoJoHen's Avatar
 
Location: QC, IL, USA
Re: Misc - Several issues - Misc Posters Read!

Just for Devil's Advocate purposes, I think there is a very big difference between saying "Obama is a liar because..." and "Obama is a lying jackass because...".

I personally don't care one way or the other, but some people might. I see no problem with insulting politicians (we insults plenty of other people, so I don't see why politicians would be protected). The problem is that often insulting politicians and political beliefs leads to fighting between posters. It's not the "Obama is a jackass" line that's the problem. It's the poster who responds by insulting the person who said that.
__________________
I am the Quintessential Admiral.
RoJoHen is offline  
Old July 10 2009, 12:04 PM   #89
Da'an
Commander
 
Da'an's Avatar
 
Location: Shibuya UG
Re: Misc - Several issues - Misc Posters Read!

Have issues like this ever come up in the various Star Trek forums? Lewd comments about Jeri Ryan or Connor Trinneer? How were those dealt with?
Da'an is offline  
Old July 10 2009, 12:08 PM   #90
Hermiod
Admiral
 
Hermiod's Avatar
 
Re: Misc - Several issues - Misc Posters Read!

Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
I'd like to address some points.

Hermiod, get a blog. If your sexism towards men issue ever actually becomes a significant problem here outside of one poster who also happens to be you constantly harping on it, then get back to us. Otherwise, stop derailing unrelated threads with it and making everything about your personal crusade. It's to the point now where we want to have a discussion with the female posters about sexism issues (this has been an issue behind the scenes for a long time) but hesitate because we know you'll make it all about your little pet peeve inside of ten posts and won't let it go when asked. I think you've proven our concern accurate in this thread. I'm not going to argue with you about it in here after this, because that would quite frankly be a waste of time and would further derail the thread, but seriously, enough already.
To be honest with you - boo fucking hoo. You don't want to talk about it ? Fine. Just because somebody formalised the mini-modding you've been doing for as long as I can remember that doesn't mean you can say a word to me about disrupting threads when you've just done it yourself.

T'Bonz's post was about sexism in Misc and so was mine. There's nothing unrelated about it. If you don't like it, tough.

What won't pass is comments just designed to piss people off with little or no content to back it up. That's trolling, and it's an existing rule that doesn't need extra draconian extensions about insulting politicians or celebrities tacked onto it in order to be applicable.
So where are Garak and Squiggy's warnings then ?

I don't know if moderators are allowed to put people on ignore, but if you can do so then please do. On a board where the above poster's actions aren't warnable there's no way I've said a damned thing that's actionable so you have no further reason to read what I've said.
Hermiod is offline  
Closed Thread

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 02:32 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.