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Science Fiction & Fantasy Farscape, Babylon 5, Star Wars, Firefly, vampires, genre books and film.

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Old July 7 2009, 05:44 PM   #31
Lindley
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Re: Firefly worth it?

DC is doing a mediocre job at best "solving" problems halfway around the world that it has little business interfering with in the first place. I'd really hate to think how well they'd do policing Alpha Centauri as well.

It's a problem of identity. When a beign government operates domestically, it can do a fairly good job because the people are (fairly) happy with it. But when it tries to extend itself elsewhere, no matter how good the intentions, it is met with resentment at best, hostility at worst---simply because it's "them" rather than "us". That is the fundamental problem with imperialist states like the Alliance.

Which is not to say that the problems are entirely the fault of the Independents for resisting occupation. While things would no doubt have gone smoother if they had given in gracefully, there's still the problem of bureaucracy getting in the way of actually making things better. And when lines of control extend to interplanetary distances....there's more bureaucracy at work than a civilization confined to one planet can imagine, I expect.

The fundamental premise of the show is that "big government" reaches a tipping point after which it simply doesn't work. It's possible that isn't true, but it's a reasonable enough premise to start from that I have no problem with it.
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Old July 7 2009, 05:53 PM   #32
Mr. Laser Beam
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Re: Firefly worth it?

The Federation clearly works, so I don't see why the Alliance couldn't.
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Old July 7 2009, 05:56 PM   #33
Lindley
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Re: Firefly worth it?

The Federation is a different type of government. Plus, science fiction is all about "what-if". Star Trek says "What if the Federation works." Firefly says, "What if the Alliance doesn't work."

Comparing them is thus fairly pointless.
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Old July 7 2009, 05:57 PM   #34
Chrisisall
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Re: Firefly worth it?

Lindley wrote: View Post
The fundamental premise of the show is that "big government" reaches a tipping point after which it simply doesn't work. It's possible that isn't true, but it's a reasonable enough premise to start from that I have no problem with it.
Wow Lindley, I was gonna answer him my own self, but I could NOT have put it better than you did!!! You're my gorram hero.

Mr. Laser is a purplebelly, obviously.

*Joke- just joking here*
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Old July 7 2009, 05:58 PM   #35
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Re: Firefly worth it?

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
The Federation clearly works, so I don't see why the Alliance couldn't.
The Federation was voluntary. Planets had to apply to become a part of it. The Alliance went, "you won't join? Fine, we'll take you over". Huge difference.
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Old July 7 2009, 05:58 PM   #36
Mr. Laser Beam
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Re: Firefly worth it?

Lindley wrote: View Post
The Federation is a different type of government.
Ah-ha! So much for "The Alliance isn't evil", eh?

Firefly says, "What if the Alliance doesn't work."
And refuses to consider that it ever could. At least there are instances in Trek where the Federation makes mistakes.

Chrisisall wrote: View Post
Mr. Laser is a purplebelly, obviously.
Yes, I'm sure I would be, if I lived in this 'verse.

*Joke- just joking here*
I'm not.
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Old July 7 2009, 06:00 PM   #37
Chrisisall
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Re: Firefly worth it?

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
The Federation clearly works, so I don't see why the Alliance couldn't.
The reason might be...uh...fiction...?
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Old July 7 2009, 06:02 PM   #38
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Re: Firefly worth it?

Chrisisall wrote: View Post
Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
The Federation clearly works, so I don't see why the Alliance couldn't.
The reason might be...uh...fiction...?
I know the difference.

The reason the Alliance *doesn't* work is because it is written that way. It's written that it should always fail. But it doesn't *have* to be that way. If the Alliance is as ambiguous as you people keep saying, then it *could* work. There could be times when it does good things. But of course the almighty Joss would never let us see that, would he?
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Old July 7 2009, 06:03 PM   #39
Chrisisall
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Re: Firefly worth it?

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Lindley wrote: View Post
Firefly says, "What if the Alliance doesn't work."
And refuses to consider that it ever could. At least there are instances in Trek where the Federation makes mistakes.
The Alliance clearly has been not-evil in many if not most circumstances. Inara herself voted for unification, after all. Get the DVD's & watch 'em. It ain't as black & white as you seem to indicate.
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Old July 7 2009, 06:04 PM   #40
Lindley
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Re: Firefly worth it?

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Lindley wrote: View Post
The Federation is a different type of government.
Ah-ha! So much for "The Alliance isn't evil", eh?
It's certainly a lot more controlling than the Federation. The fact of fighting a war of expansion should prove that. Calling it "evil" is still too narratively over-the-top to be correct, however. The show didn't operate in such terms.

As Pike described it in the new movie, the Federation seems to have started out more like the UN than an actual government.

Firefly says, "What if the Alliance doesn't work."
And refuses to consider that it ever could. At least there are instances in Trek where the Federation makes mistakes.
It's hardly so one-sided. There are plenty of characters who support the Alliance. Inara is one. However, asking "why does the show ask this what-if instead of that one" hardly seems productive. If it were a different what-if, it would be a different story.

There could be times when it does good things.
Of course. And I'm sure we would have seen some of them if the series had continued. What made Firefly compelling was that things weren't black-and-white----there were plenty of shades of grey to go around.
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Old July 7 2009, 06:09 PM   #41
Mr. Laser Beam
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Re: Firefly worth it?

Lindley wrote: View Post
What made Firefly compelling was that things weren't black-and-white----there were plenty of shades of grey to go around.
And that's why I couldn't enjoy it, because I generally don't believe in shades of grey.
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Old July 7 2009, 06:09 PM   #42
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Re: Firefly worth it?

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post

The reason the Alliance *doesn't* work is because it is written that way. It's written that it should always fail.
Whoah whoah whoah, wait right there spinach chin, the Alliance CLEARLY succeeds more than it fails, but we're seein' the 'Verse though characters that are getting the short end of the power relay. Of course it's gonna SEEM like the Alliance is up to no good, but check out Ariel- in that ep, aside from a slight tinge of big-brother-like surveilance, core planets seem pretty nice.
the almighty Joss would never let us see that, would he?
Do I know you from a Firefly site?
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Old July 7 2009, 06:11 PM   #43
Lindley
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Re: Firefly worth it?

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Lindley wrote: View Post
What made Firefly compelling was that things weren't black-and-white----there were plenty of shades of grey to go around.
And that's why I couldn't enjoy it, because I generally don't believe in shades of grey.
Eh, you like the Yankees. What do you know.
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Old July 7 2009, 06:12 PM   #44
Mr. Laser Beam
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Re: Firefly worth it?

Chrisisall wrote: View Post
we're seein' the 'Verse though characters that are getting the short end of the power relay. Of course it's gonna SEEM like the Alliance is up to no good
True dat.

In fact I was always fascinated by the possibility of re-telling episodes of the show, from the point of view of the Alliance. How different would it seem then? Think about it.

Do I know you from a Firefly site?
I doubt it, since I'm not on any. No plans to, either. It'd be like walking into Fenway Park wearing one of these.
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Old July 7 2009, 06:14 PM   #45
Chrisisall
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Re: Firefly worth it?

[QUOTE=Mr. Laser Beam;3163222]
Lindley wrote: View Post

And that's why I couldn't enjoy it, because I generally don't believe in shades of grey.
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Welcome to the real world.
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