RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 140,954
Posts: 5,480,027
Members: 25,057
Currently online: 631
Newest member: Ghost_of_Bubba

TrekToday headlines

USS Enterprise Press-Out And Build Manual
By: T'Bonz on Nov 28

New QMx USS Reliant Model
By: T'Bonz on Nov 28

Star Trek Thirty-Five Years On 35MM: A Retrospective
By: T'Bonz on Nov 28

Trek Shirt And Hoodie
By: T'Bonz on Nov 27

A Klingon Christmas Carol’s Last Season
By: T'Bonz on Nov 27

Attack Wing Wave 10 Expansion Pack
By: T'Bonz on Nov 27

New Star Trek Funko Pop! Vinyl Figures
By: T'Bonz on Nov 26

QMx Mini Phaser Ornament
By: T'Bonz on Nov 26

Stewart as Neo-Nazi Skinhead
By: T'Bonz on Nov 26

Klingon Bloodwine To Debut
By: T'Bonz on Nov 25


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

View Poll Results: Grade the movie...
Excellent 706 62.70%
Above Average 213 18.92%
Average 84 7.46%
Below Average 46 4.09%
Poor 77 6.84%
Voters: 1126. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old July 4 2009, 06:50 PM   #2476
Borgminister
Moderator
 
Location: California
Re: The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

Wonder if there's gonna be a space battle showing that in the "extended cut"?
Borgminister is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 4 2009, 09:44 PM   #2477
Anticitizen
Fleet Captain
 
Anticitizen's Avatar
 
Location: Black Mesa Research Facility
Re: The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
Anticitizen wrote: View Post
It means, of course, that Spock Prime should be doing his damndest to fix the timeline, as he's been known to do in the past when time travel screws it up, but I'm sure that won't happen.
If he finds a starship to slingshot around a sun, what exactly should he do to destroy Nero's ship as it comes through the black hole? Somehow convince Starfleet to meet the Narada with a stronger fleet than 47 Klingon warbirds?
Interstingly enough Orci or Kurtzman, which ever one was doing to Q and A at Trekmovie has commented that the warp slingshot around a sun timetravel thing doesn't work in NuTrek.

Anticitizen wrote: View Post

Red matter. Or, since he can apparently beam stuff from light-years away and through shields, beam a bomb on board from afar. It doesn't really matter.
All of Spock Prime's red matter slamed into the Narada at the end of the movie and he can'tmake more until 2387 if and thats if the technology is even stillcreated in this timeline, also you still can't beam through shields so that wouldn't work.
Okay, then have an automated ship on autopilot, travelling at warp speed, timed to slam into the Narada at Warp 7 the moment it emerges from the black hole. How it's done is not the point - I'm just saying that the character of Spock (prime) from TOS always seemed to think it was very important to 'restore' a timeline that got messed up, and it would seem out of character for him to do nothing. Which is why they should have gone with a straight-up reboot without the time travel.
Anticitizen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 5 2009, 04:40 AM   #2478
Australis
Writer
 
Australis's Avatar
 
Location: The Electric Age
Re: The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

Anticitizen, that ship has sailed. Let it go.
__________________
"… Times change, and so must I… we all change. When you think about it, we are all different people, all through our lives and that’s okay, that’s good! You've gotta keep moving, so long as you remember all the people that you used to be."
Australis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 5 2009, 04:49 AM   #2479
Anticitizen
Fleet Captain
 
Anticitizen's Avatar
 
Location: Black Mesa Research Facility
Re: The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

Australis wrote: View Post
Anticitizen, that ship has sailed. Let it go.
This is the 'grading and discussion' thread. I'm grading and discussing.
Anticitizen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 5 2009, 04:52 AM   #2480
Hartzilla2007
Vice Admiral
 
Hartzilla2007's Avatar
 
Location: Star Trekkin Across the universe.
Re: The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

Anticitizen wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Therin of Andor wrote: View Post

If he finds a starship to slingshot around a sun, what exactly should he do to destroy Nero's ship as it comes through the black hole? Somehow convince Starfleet to meet the Narada with a stronger fleet than 47 Klingon warbirds?
Interstingly enough Orci or Kurtzman, which ever one was doing to Q and A at Trekmovie has commented that the warp slingshot around a sun timetravel thing doesn't work in NuTrek.

Anticitizen wrote: View Post

Red matter. Or, since he can apparently beam stuff from light-years away and through shields, beam a bomb on board from afar. It doesn't really matter.
All of Spock Prime's red matter slamed into the Narada at the end of the movie and he can'tmake more until 2387 if and thats if the technology is even stillcreated in this timeline, also you still can't beam through shields so that wouldn't work.
Okay, then have an automated ship on autopilot, travelling at warp speed, timed to slam into the Narada at Warp 7 the moment it emerges from the black hole.
And to do that you need the precise position of the Narada and the ship to arrive at the percise time the Narada exits which would be pretty hard to get EXACTLY right, and it would have to be exactly or it wouldn't work.

How it's done is not the point - I'm just saying that the character of Spock (prime) from TOS always seemed to think it was very important to 'restore' a timeline that got messed up, and it would seem out of character for him to do nothing.
Or he could have made peace with the fact that THERE IS NO WAY IN HELL HE COULD PULL IT OFF, and that trying could cause MORE DAMAGE to the timeline instead of fixing it.
Hartzilla2007 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old July 5 2009, 05:06 AM   #2481
Anticitizen
Fleet Captain
 
Anticitizen's Avatar
 
Location: Black Mesa Research Facility
Re: The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
And to do that you need the precise position of the Narada and the ship to arrive at the percise time the Narada exits which would be pretty hard to get EXACTLY right, and it would have to be exactly or it wouldn't work.
That's open to pure speculation (for both of us). Nero was able to somehow calculate where Spock was going to show up, even though Nero went through the wormhole first - and I would venture a guess that Spock, the Vulcan scientist, is smarter than a Romulan miner.


Or he could have made peace with the fact that THERE IS NO WAY IN HELL HE COULD PULL IT OFF, and that trying could cause MORE DAMAGE to the timeline instead of fixing it.
Whether he could pull it off or not is also speculative. I still maintain that it's out of character for him not to try. He doubted he could built a tricorder interface device out of stone knives and bearskins in order to save the future, but pulled it off anyway.

As for causing more damage to the timeline... the planet Vulcan, 47 Klingon warships and six (or seven? don't recall) Starfleet ships have been destroyed... hard to muck things up worse than that. Not to mention the possible future that's now been created... one possibility is a rapid militarization of the Federation and the Klingon and Romulan empires... or the Romulans deciding to attack when they discover the Federation has been weakened by Nero's attack (and is in fact now missing one of its key planets and all its resources).

If it were me, Earth had been destroyed, and I had Spock's intelligence and capabilities... you bet your britches I'd be slingshotting around the nearest star/heading to the Guardian of Forever ASAP.
Anticitizen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 5 2009, 05:25 AM   #2482
Hartzilla2007
Vice Admiral
 
Hartzilla2007's Avatar
 
Location: Star Trekkin Across the universe.
Re: The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

Anticitizen wrote: View Post
As for causing more damage to the timeline... the planet Vulcan, 47 Klingon warships and six (or seven? don't recall) Starfleet ships have been destroyed... hard to muck things up worse than that. Not to mention the possible future that's now been created... one possibility is a rapid militarization of the Federation and the Klingon and Romulan empires... or the Romulans deciding to attack when they discover the Federation has been weakened by Nero's attack (and is in fact now missing one of its key planets and all its resources).

If it were me, Earth had been destroyed, and I had Spock's intelligence and capabilities... you bet your britches I'd be slingshotting around the nearest star/heading to the Guardian of Forever ASAP.
Then you would be one arrogant person to dictate how the lives of god knows how many people should turn out, I mean yes Spock normally tries to "fix" the timeline but he may have realized that there is know way of knowing what trying to fix it will do, yes it could return to normal or it could cause the Kelvin to be lost with all hands including James T. Kirk that would pretty much fuck things up, or Nero could get away to Romulan space without the damage the Kelvin inflicted by ramming it.

Plus even if the old timeline is erased then the Prime universe still exists unless it never occured to the people complaning about the history change can't accept the fact that according to Star Trek's own multiverse rules there must exist a universe exactly the same as the prime universe EXCEPT that Spock and Nero were not pulled into the black hole.
Hartzilla2007 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old July 5 2009, 06:16 AM   #2483
Anticitizen
Fleet Captain
 
Anticitizen's Avatar
 
Location: Black Mesa Research Facility
Re: The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Anticitizen wrote: View Post
As for causing more damage to the timeline... the planet Vulcan, 47 Klingon warships and six (or seven? don't recall) Starfleet ships have been destroyed... hard to muck things up worse than that. Not to mention the possible future that's now been created... one possibility is a rapid militarization of the Federation and the Klingon and Romulan empires... or the Romulans deciding to attack when they discover the Federation has been weakened by Nero's attack (and is in fact now missing one of its key planets and all its resources).

If it were me, Earth had been destroyed, and I had Spock's intelligence and capabilities... you bet your britches I'd be slingshotting around the nearest star/heading to the Guardian of Forever ASAP.
Then you would be one arrogant person to dictate how the lives of god knows how many people should turn out, I mean yes Spock normally tries to "fix" the timeline but he may have realized that there is know way of knowing what trying to fix it will do, yes it could return to normal or it could cause the Kelvin to be lost with all hands including James T. Kirk that would pretty much fuck things up, or Nero could get away to Romulan space without the damage the Kelvin inflicted by ramming it.

Plus even if the old timeline is erased then the Prime universe still exists unless it never occured to the people complaning about the history change can't accept the fact that according to Star Trek's own multiverse rules there must exist a universe exactly the same as the prime universe EXCEPT that Spock and Nero were not pulled into the black hole.
Commas are your friend.

There's no real evidence that this timeline exists alongside the old one, but we've been over this already.

I'm not suggesting that they do what I'm talking about in the next film. I think it would be silly to do so. I'm just saying it's something Spock would do, given his behavior in prior Trek. That's part of what makes the whole time travel aspect of the film somewhat detracting in my opinion.

As for putting Baby Kirk in danger, etc, you could distract the Kelvin with a phone distress call beforehand... none of this is the point, however.
Anticitizen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 5 2009, 06:28 AM   #2484
trevanian
Rear Admiral
 
Re: The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Anticitizen wrote: View Post
As for causing more damage to the timeline... the planet Vulcan, 47 Klingon warships and six (or seven? don't recall) Starfleet ships have been destroyed... hard to muck things up worse than that. Not to mention the possible future that's now been created... one possibility is a rapid militarization of the Federation and the Klingon and Romulan empires... or the Romulans deciding to attack when they discover the Federation has been weakened by Nero's attack (and is in fact now missing one of its key planets and all its resources).

If it were me, Earth had been destroyed, and I had Spock's intelligence and capabilities... you bet your britches I'd be slingshotting around the nearest star/heading to the Guardian of Forever ASAP.
Then you would be one arrogant person to dictate how the lives of god knows how many people should turn out, I mean yes Spock normally tries to "fix" the timeline but he may have realized that there is know way of knowing what trying to fix it will do, yes it could return to normal or it could cause the Kelvin to be lost with all hands including James T. Kirk that would pretty much fuck things up, or Nero could get away to Romulan space without the damage the Kelvin inflicted by ramming it.
.
To me this way you are arguing the point really speaks to how weak the premise of the pic must be, that it all hinges on 'idiot plotting' requiring a major character to be inactive in the exact kind of situation he would NEVER be inactive.

If SubPrimeSpock is really a changed character with age, one content to live with the new timeline or however you describe it (I'm not wanting to hear the quantum universes thing, that is TNG much more than TOS and I don't give a crap about TNG), then the movie should have been about what changed his perspective, which is a huge switch from the character I know of.

And anybody messing with time would have to be that 'arrogant' ... or perhaps another word would be in order there. Maybe if the situation was a Jewish person who could do something back in time that would might save 6 million jews from camp deaths and the like ... would he be arrogant to risk however many other millions? Prob'ly, but that wouldn't invalidate his choice in the slightest.
trevanian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 5 2009, 03:57 PM   #2485
Hartzilla2007
Vice Admiral
 
Hartzilla2007's Avatar
 
Location: Star Trekkin Across the universe.
Re: The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

Anticitizen wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Anticitizen wrote: View Post
As for causing more damage to the timeline... the planet Vulcan, 47 Klingon warships and six (or seven? don't recall) Starfleet ships have been destroyed... hard to muck things up worse than that. Not to mention the possible future that's now been created... one possibility is a rapid militarization of the Federation and the Klingon and Romulan empires... or the Romulans deciding to attack when they discover the Federation has been weakened by Nero's attack (and is in fact now missing one of its key planets and all its resources).

If it were me, Earth had been destroyed, and I had Spock's intelligence and capabilities... you bet your britches I'd be slingshotting around the nearest star/heading to the Guardian of Forever ASAP.
Then you would be one arrogant person to dictate how the lives of god knows how many people should turn out, I mean yes Spock normally tries to "fix" the timeline but he may have realized that there is know way of knowing what trying to fix it will do, yes it could return to normal or it could cause the Kelvin to be lost with all hands including James T. Kirk that would pretty much fuck things up, or Nero could get away to Romulan space without the damage the Kelvin inflicted by ramming it.

Plus even if the old timeline is erased then the Prime universe still exists unless it never occured to the people complaning about the history change can't accept the fact that according to Star Trek's own multiverse rules there must exist a universe exactly the same as the prime universe EXCEPT that Spock and Nero were not pulled into the black hole.
Commas are your friend.

There's no real evidence that this timeline exists alongside the old one, but we've been over this already.

I'm not suggesting that they do what I'm talking about in the next film. I think it would be silly to do so. I'm just saying it's something Spock would do, given his behavior in prior Trek. That's part of what makes the whole time travel aspect of the film somewhat detracting in my opinion.

As for putting Baby Kirk in danger, etc, you could distract the Kelvin with a phone distress call beforehand... none of this is the point, however.
I'm not saying the old timeline wasn't erased I'm saying it still exists as a quantum reality where Spock and Nero DON'T go back in time were you paying attention to Parallels?

Oh trevanian and Anticitizen as to the it would be in character for Spock Prime to fix the timeline argument well the timeline wasn't exactly right at the end of Yesteryear and yet Spock wasn't trying to bend over backwards to save his poor sehlat, so there is a slight precedence here.

Last edited by Hartzilla2007; July 5 2009 at 04:08 PM.
Hartzilla2007 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old July 5 2009, 06:54 PM   #2486
Anticitizen
Fleet Captain
 
Anticitizen's Avatar
 
Location: Black Mesa Research Facility
Re: The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
I'm not saying the old timeline wasn't erased I'm saying it still exists as a quantum reality where Spock and Nero DON'T go back in time were you paying attention to Parallels?

Oh trevanian and Anticitizen as to the it would be in character for Spock Prime to fix the timeline argument well the timeline wasn't exactly right at the end of Yesteryear and yet Spock wasn't trying to bend over backwards to save his poor sehlat, so there is a slight precedence here.
Parallels - deals with alternate realities similar to the Mirror Universe, not time travel.

Yesteryear - ain't canon.

On the side of the fence where there is one timeline that gets changed, we have Operation: Earth, Tomorrow is Yesterday, City on the Edge of Forever, Yesterday's Enterprise, First Contact (the film), Trials and Tribble-ations, Endgame, etc etc etc.
Anticitizen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 5 2009, 10:18 PM   #2487
Ovation
Vice Admiral
 
Location: La Belle Province or The Green Mountain State (depends on the day of the week)
Re: The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

Anticitizen wrote: View Post

On the side of the fence where there is one timeline that gets changed, we have Operation: Earth, Tomorrow is Yesterday, City on the Edge of Forever
perhaps

, Yesterday's Enterprise, First Contact (the film),
Nope and nope.

Trials and Tribble-ations,
Perhaps.

Endgame,
Nope.

etc etc etc.
I'm sure there are other examples of "unfixed" timelines in there too.
Ovation is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 5 2009, 11:50 PM   #2488
Hartzilla2007
Vice Admiral
 
Hartzilla2007's Avatar
 
Location: Star Trekkin Across the universe.
Re: The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

Anticitizen wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
I'm not saying the old timeline wasn't erased I'm saying it still exists as a quantum reality where Spock and Nero DON'T go back in time were you paying attention to Parallels?

Oh trevanian and Anticitizen as to the it would be in character for Spock Prime to fix the timeline argument well the timeline wasn't exactly right at the end of Yesteryear and yet Spock wasn't trying to bend over backwards to save his poor sehlat, so there is a slight precedence here.
Parallels - deals with alternate realities similar to the Mirror Universe, not time travel.
I WASN'T talking about time travel I was talking about alternate realities, like the alternate reality which is exactly like and is for all intents and purposes the Prime universe except that Spock and Nero weren't pulled into the black hole and as such DID NOT go back in time.
Hartzilla2007 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old July 6 2009, 01:03 AM   #2489
Anticitizen
Fleet Captain
 
Anticitizen's Avatar
 
Location: Black Mesa Research Facility
Re: The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

Ovation wrote: View Post
Anticitizen wrote: View Post

On the side of the fence where there is one timeline that gets changed, we have Operation: Earth, Tomorrow is Yesterday, City on the Edge of Forever
perhaps

, Yesterday's Enterprise, First Contact (the film),
Nope and nope.

Perhaps.

Endgame,
Nope.

etc etc etc.
I'm sure there are other examples of "unfixed" timelines in there too.
What do you mean? I wasn't arguing whether they were properly fixed 100% or not, I was saying these episodes argue for one timeline, not multiples co-existing. If going back in time didn't effect the future, but instead simply branched off to another, 'parallel' timeline, then there's be no point in doing it.

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
I WASN'T talking about time travel I was talking about alternate realities, like the alternate reality which is exactly like and is for all intents and purposes the Prime universe except that Spock and Nero weren't pulled into the black hole and as such DID NOT go back in time.
Then I'm afraid I don't see the point you're trying to make, because Spock and Nero obviously did go back in time...
Anticitizen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 6 2009, 01:51 AM   #2490
Hartzilla2007
Vice Admiral
 
Hartzilla2007's Avatar
 
Location: Star Trekkin Across the universe.
Re: The Official STAR TREK Grading & Discussion Thread [SPOILERS]

Anticitizen wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
h
I WASN'T talking about time travel I was talking about alternate realities, like the alternate reality which is exactly like and is for all intents and purposes the Prime universe except that Spock and Nero weren't pulled into the black hole and as such DID NOT go back in time.
Then I'm afraid I don't see the point you're trying to make, because Spock and Nero obviously did go back in time...
Yes in the universe that Trek XI takes place in, but in another universe in the Trek multiverse they didn't.

It's like this you come up to a fork in the road, in one universe you go right in another universe the branches off of yours you go left and both the universe where you go right and the newly created one where you go left both continue on their merry little ways both continuing to existing.

Now knowing this and the fact that Trek has shown that this is the case in the existance of alternate realities in their multiverse we now apply this factor to NuTrek, for this pupose I will refer to one universe as Abrams 1 and Abrams 2 to avoid confusion.

Now

In the universe I am refering to as Abrams 1, in the year 2387 the Hobus star's supernova is threatening the universe. Spock Prime prevents this by detonating a drop of red matter in the star and thus causing a black hole that destroys said star, after this Spock and Nero the pissed off Romulan get pulled into the black hole and wind up in the past which is altered by Nero.

Now for the mind blowing part.

In the universe I'm calling Abrams 2 an alternate reality the branches off from Abrams 1, Spock Prime destroys Hobus, he and Nero are not pulled into the black hole and do NOT go back in time and Nero does NOT fuck up the time line.

In conclusion becuase a newly created universe branches off from the Prime universe inwhich Spock and Nero DON'T go back in time, the Prime Universe still exists and we can stop arguing about it.

This can also explain why Spock Prime doesn't try to restore the timeline becuase in the century since his last trip through time he picked he read up on quantum realities and how they are formed and figured his old timeline is still around in some form and figured trying to fix it probably wasn't worth the trouble since in some form IT STILL EXISTS.

Another possible theory is that since preventing the changes Nero inacted would be problematic at best and IMPOSSIBLE at worst and decided to affect damage control to the timeline ie possibly taking steps to make sure Kirk is the Enterprise's captain and finding a new home for the Vulcans to try to get the timeline at least close to its original state.

Last edited by Hartzilla2007; July 6 2009 at 02:25 AM.
Hartzilla2007 is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
grading & discussion, parallel star trek, vulcan

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 06:12 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.