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Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

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Old July 4 2009, 10:19 PM   #2056
The Grim Ghost
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

"Someone to Watch Over Me's" b-plot with the Ambassador gets an automatic perfect rating from me, due to Scott Thompson of Kids in the Hall fame playing the Ambassador. (Seven of Mine!)

OT trivia: Which DS9 cast member made a few appearances on Kids in the Hall? (google is cheating )
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Old July 5 2009, 02:54 AM   #2057
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

happydave wrote: View Post
GodBen wrote: View Post
Imagine a show where a character showed up in two episodes, died, and then showed up in a third with no explanation as to how he aten't dead.
Sounds like The Original Series where half the background redshirts would pop back up even though they'd been killed. Galloway for example. Leslie would also move around doing every job around the ship.
Mr. Leslie is a good example.
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Old July 5 2009, 10:35 PM   #2058
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

11:59 (****)

Wow, two quiet shows in a row! This is quite nice, a few laid-back character pieces side by side so that I don't go crazy with all the peril Voyager has found itself in recently.

I'm probably being a bit generous on the score but I found this to be an enjoyable hour about hero worship, and it also helps to fill in the back-story of the Star Trek universe and how it is different from our own. I'm interested in seeing how life played out in the very, very late 20th century in the Star Trek universe, and the Millennium Gate is a neat concept that I wouldn't mind seeing more of in future Trek.



And then there is an interesting character story about Shannon and Henry's bookshop. Actually, I'm not sure if his name really is Henry, that guy has the look of a con-man about him. And I'm glad that Shannon convinced Henry to give up his shop, I'd hate for the Millennium Gate to be built in Canton Ohio, that place sucks ass!

Future's End wrote:
JANEWAY: I don't know what my relatives were doing this far back in history.
OMG itz da suxor!!! This continuity error has raped my childhood!

Seriously, I'm not going to let a random line from a "fun" episode like Future's End ruin my enjoyment of 11:59. You're going to have to look for gross negativity elsewhere, perhaps my review of Coda...
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Old July 5 2009, 11:13 PM   #2059
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I really enjoyed "11:59" as well. I don't like it quite as much as you do but I think it is a nice solid 3 star episode.

These sorts of episodes always feel like comfort entertainment--nice quiet introspective episode with a heavy dose of sentimentality--sorta like those sappy Christmas stories that you'd see on Hallmark Channel. I also liked the similar ENT's "Carbon Creek".

Shannon O'Donnell really felt like a role well suited for Mulgrew--I see a lot of Mulgrew's personality in her. I liked seeing her struggles and her burgeoning relationship with Henry although Henry isn't exactly the guy I'd picture Shannon with.

The ending I thought was a nice touch. This is truly an episode that works due to the series of nice character moments that are ubiquitous.

If I remember correctly this episode had its origins at a dinner at Rick Berman's where John deLancie was a guest. The idea popped up of having an ancestor of Janeway sitting on a park bench where Q sits down next to this individual and they strike up a conversation. It didn't get much further than that but I think Brannon used it as a springboard for this episode.
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Old July 6 2009, 12:28 AM   #2060
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I absolutely love 11:59, to the point where I remember where I was, what was going on, and how things were when it aired. We were getting right to the new Millennium, and that song (Millennium) was like the top of the charts for a point. As for this episode, it really spoke out to me for some reason. I guess this show was all about respecting ancestors but it was more Star Trek's tribute to the end of the Millennium and that's what resonated with me more. It may not be your typical Star Trek episode, but I don't think any other episode of Voyager (Other than maybe One Small Step) impacted me emotionally as much as this one did.
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Old July 6 2009, 12:35 AM   #2061
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I just don't buy 11:59. I found the sentimentality forced and the story to be duller than dirt. Half a star from me on this one.
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Old July 6 2009, 02:17 AM   #2062
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

11:59 *snooze*

I’m of the exact opposite opinion of Ben’s . . . or shall I call you The Hater Formally Known As Steve?

As a standalone story by itself, 11:59 was fine for all the reasons you mentioned. Nothing wrong with the production or acting. But as a Voyager ep, or even a Star Trek ep for that matter, it stunk.

For someone who normally grades as strictly as you do, I have to wonder what happened to your standard of not liking any episode that doesn’t make use of Voyager’s lost-in-the-Delta-Quadrant premise? What happened to your deducting half a star for any ep they could have done on TNG?

I’d give it 1.5 stars out of 5 for the character moments mentioned. The closing scene in the mess hall was nice, but that’s about it.
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Old July 6 2009, 06:43 AM   #2063
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

11:59 ---> *


Snoozefest. An okay story, but it had only little to do with Trek. And therefore I was bored.
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Old July 6 2009, 07:26 AM   #2064
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I have to agree with the haters of this episode, bored me to tears. I actually fell asleep -twice- watching it, and after forcing myself to stay awake, wished there was a 'delete' button on the dvd. The only part I liked was the Voyager "family portrait" at the end.
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Old July 6 2009, 08:04 AM   #2065
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

NumberSix wrote: View Post
The only part I liked was the Voyager "family portrait" at the end.

That and Neelix/Seven moment in mess hall. Sven Buttercup made me lol.
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Old July 6 2009, 11:59 AM   #2066
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

'11:59' was a nice little episode, I just didn't find myself overly enthralled with Shannon's plight. This episode sits alongside 'Far Beyond The Stars' and 'Carbon Creek' as shows that deal with castmembers appearing in our past as a different characters. Which is almost interesting!

3/5, above average, just about.
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Old July 6 2009, 12:16 PM   #2067
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

GodBen wrote: View Post
Future's End wrote:
JANEWAY: I don't know what my relatives were doing this far back in history.
OMG itz da suxor!!! This continuity error has raped my childhood!

Seriously, I'm not going to let a random line from a "fun" episode like Future's End ruin my enjoyment of 11:59. You're going to have to look for gross negativity elsewhere, perhaps my review of Coda...
I found Voyager (and its continuity) much more fun if you view the show as individual stories rather than a continual arc (like DS9). Sure on occasion things like this pop up, but I prefer to just enjoy the episode's story (as flawed as it may be).

To draw the comparison back to The Original Series, (especially in the beginning) you get all little continuity errors (Spacefleet rather than Starfleet) but again it became a loved show despite this as people looked past it at the characters / stories rather than continuity.

And that's how I like to view VOY/TOS.

Personally I like VOY, it works really nicely as action episodes and some character episodes. But it seems they do like they do stretch the show to fit the plot in. It's fun, it's watchable, it's enjoyable, it's Voyager. And I think the people who do nitpick are ruining a fun show for themselves.

I must say, I do enjoy this thread.
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Old July 6 2009, 01:04 PM   #2068
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

PolloCaballo wrote: View Post
I’m of the exact opposite opinion of Ben’s . . . or shall I call you The Hater Formally Known As Steve?
I think The Hater Never Known As Steve might be a more accurate moniker.

As a standalone story by itself, 11:59 was fine for all the reasons you mentioned. Nothing wrong with the production or acting. But as a Voyager ep, or even a Star Trek ep for that matter, it stunk.
There was an episode in the fourth season of The West Wing called The Long Goodbye where CJ goes home to her school reunion and has to deal with her father's Alzheimer's. While it is a very well made episode it is often considered to be one of the worst episodes of the show because it doesn't feel like a West Wing episode; no politics, only two main characters appear and it wasn't written by Aaron Sorkin (who wrote almost every episode of the first four seasons).

In contrast 11:59 includes the whole Voyager cast, it was written by long-time contributor Joe Menosky and it tells a tale which feels like a Star Trek episode to me. The Shannon O'Donnell story fits within the larger story of Janeway's hero worship and it directly contrasts the myth which Janeway has believed her whole life. Star Trek is about more than spaceships and aliens, and in my opinion I think this is the type of story which could only be told within Star Trek.

For someone who normally grades as strictly as you do, I have to wonder what happened to your standard of not liking any episode that doesn’t make use of Voyager’s lost-in-the-Delta-Quadrant premise? What happened to your deducting half a star for any ep they could have done on TNG?
That's a valid concern, I haven't been paying too much attention to that since season four and I have no doubt that one or two episodes slipped my judgement on this. However, this does feel like a Voyager episode to me, I can't imagine a similar story about Picard. I'm probably basing this on how much screen time Kate Mulgrew had in this episode, but I can't imagine this episode on TNG.
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Old July 6 2009, 02:53 PM   #2069
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

happydave wrote: View Post

I found Voyager (and its continuity) much more fun if you view the show as individual stories rather than a continual arc (like DS9). Sure on occasion things like this pop up, but I prefer to just enjoy the episode's story (as flawed as it may be).

Personally I like VOY, it works really nicely as action episodes and some character episodes. But it seems they do like they do stretch the show to fit the plot in. It's fun, it's watchable, it's enjoyable, it's Voyager. And I think the people who do nitpick are ruining a fun show for themselves.

This attitude annoys me. I didn't like the show only because I chose to nitpick it?

I like 4 Star Trek shows, I have no reason to try and not like a show. I like Enterprise and it's flaws can easily be nitpicked, but you know I still enjoyed much of it.


I don't like Voyager because I don't find it fun, or enjoyable. No longer will something with the "Star Trek" name automatically be "watchable" for me. And the action which works for you, does not work for me. It's too cliche.

And considering it's a given that Voyager was not going to get blown up in a regular episode, it's hard to take any action or "grave situation" with much seriousness. Particularly when there are no consequences when Voyager does take severe damage.



What really annoys me is I really like a select few Voyager episodes. It pisses me off because you can see what a great consistent show it could've been, if those in charge actually cared about what they were doing.
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Old July 6 2009, 03:32 PM   #2070
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

^Relax dude. It's quite alright.
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