Destiny: Lost Souls by David Mack Review Thread (Spoilers!)

[Deranged Nasat]

ProtoAvatar wrote:

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Picard, Riker and the rest of the federation "pretended" to try to stop the borg.
To be more exact, they were content to trade transphasic torpedos with the borg, knowing that the collective will adapt. And when the borg finally adapted, thay just grabed their heades and screamed in desperation - as dignified as possible, of course.
Where was the creativity that permeated almost every Star Trek episode? Well, I guess Data was responsible for it. So much for the myth about machines having no creativity.

And for the first time in his career - as depicted on-screen - Picard was an incompetent cry-baby. Before - even when he faced the borg - he always managed to pull himself together.

And about the ending - I dislike not only the fact that it transformed humans into the playthings of the gods, second class citizens of the universe, but it also made the star trek universe a much darker place.

For example - In "A singular destiny", The Typhon Pact is introduced - an alliance of powers who were always hostile toward the Federation - and still are.
And, Sci - in "Losing the Peace", I doubt Picard was kidnapping governors because the situation was so rosy.

Deranged Nasat
La Forge's view is moral only for someone following an amish-like morality.
But, you see, both Picard and La Forge are in Starfleet - they swore to protect the Federation even if that means using deadly force against the aggressors - like in the Dominion War. By refusing to use deadly force against the borg, Picard and La Forge betrayed their Starfleet oath; they betrayed the Federation.
If Picard and La Forge were following an uncompromisingly pacifistic philosophy, they should not have enlisted in the first place - they were not fit to be Starfleet officers.

And Erica Hernandes may have beeen human once; not anymore. Now she is a Caeliar, a transcedental being, part of the rulling class of the universe. So far above "mere humans" that they should start praying to her.

First, I apologise as I know this was directed at Sci, but I must object to the idea that the Trek universe is a darker place thanks to "Destiny". First, trillions of Borg drones have now been liberated from slavery and restored to their individuality, while the newly expanded Caeliar Gestalt is apparently going to travel the universe working for peace. This is surely a good thing. 63 Billion dead is terrible, but trillions more have now gotten their lives back. Second, the Typhon Pact is not necessarily hostile. Only one of the six members has shown itself motivated by hostility so far. Two others have reasonably good relations with the Federation. One has no prior relationship at all. What about six nations joining together in peaceful unity, many discarding xenophobia for the first time, is "dark?". Whether there are negative consequences for the Federation or not, for the Pact nations things are looking up, surely? Anyway, this could be the first step towards the "Pax Galactica" "The Good That Men Do" suggested characterized the 25th century.

As for deadly force when necessary, deadly force does not necessarily equate to "building outlawed genocidal superweapons that will lead to war with the Romulans and Klingons even if it works, and disrespects Data's memory either way". Plus, blowing up Borg ships with transphasic torpedoes is certainly using deadly force- La Forge and Picard both do this.

With all respect, if you are ever (essentially) raped and enslaved, then your oppressors swarm in and begin annihalating your entire civilization, would you want me to label you an "incompetant crybaby" if you break down?

Lastly, Hernandez never suggested anyone should view her as a superior being. In fact, she condemned the Caeliar for their isolationist, dismissive and xenophobic views, if I remember correctly. Yes, she is now a Caeliar- but one who brings a uniquely human understanding into the Gestalt. Human and Caeliar united, the best of both as the Borg were the worst of both.

[Sci]

ProtoAvatar wrote:

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Picard, Riker and the rest of the federation "pretended" to try to stop the borg.
To be more exact, they were content to trade transphasic torpedos with the borg, knowing that the collective will adapt. And when the borg finally adapted, thay just grabed their heades and screamed in desperation - as dignified as possible, of course.

Yes, that's right, people who tried everything they could think of to save lives and then died for it just "weren't even trying."

And for the first time in his career - as depicted on-screen - Picard was an incompetent cry-baby. Before - even when he faced the borg - he always managed to pull himself together.

True. But, there again, Picard was never facing the Borg Collective at its fullest, either -- nor facing the imminent destruction of his civilization and everything he holds dear at their hands.

And about the ending - I dislike not only the fact that it transformed humans into the playthings of the gods,

It did no such thing; the "gods" were following the will of the Humans, if anything.

but it also made the star trek universe a much darker place.

The end of the Borg Collective and the liberation of millions makes the Trekverse a much darker place?

I'm assuming you're referring to the destruction of so many worlds in the Federation. The problem with claiming that the ending to Destiny made the Trekverse a darker place is that, well... the destruction of all those worlds came before the ending to the trilogy. It came about two-thirds of the way through it, actually.

Besides, part of the point of the Destiny trilogy was that the Borg have done this before, to thousands of worlds across the galaxy. Having them trash the Federation, too, doesn't make the Trekverse any darker than it was before -- it just forces the audience to confront the darkness that already existed in the Trekverse instead of saying, "Well, it's over there, so we don't have to worry about it."

And, yes, the Federation will recover. That's far more inspirational and optimistic than a Federation that never faces real hardship.

For example - In "A singular destiny", The Typhon Pact is introduced - an alliance of powers who were always hostile toward the Federation - and still are.

And as was noted in the ASD thread, it's not clear at all that the Pact will just be hostile to the Federation, nor that it will inevitably lead to war. The Pact is comprised of six different cultures with six different agendas, from the Romulans under Tal'Aura who are just trying to regain their interstellar prominence, to the Tholians who are trying to screw over the Federation, to the Gorn, who want to become stronger but are not antagonistic towards the Federation.

And, Sci - in "Losing the Peace", I doubt Picard

was kidnapping governors

because the situation was so rosy.

You are moving the goal posts. I cited that as evidence that Picard is not passive, not that the situation is rosy.

No one claimed the situation is rosy. But I don't think that a rosy situation is all that optimistic or inspirational. As I said above:

Utopia is a lie.

Deranged Nasat
La Forge's view is moral only for someone following an amish-like morality.

Right, because your morality is Absolutely Right (TM) and if another culture diverges from that morality, they're wrong and Amish-like. (Nice disrespect for another culture there, BTW.)

But, you see, both Picard and La Forge are in Starfleet - they swore to protect the Federation even if that means using deadly force against the aggressors - like in the Dominion War. By refusing to use deadly force against the borg, Picard and La Forge betrayed their Starfleet oath; they betrayed the Federation.

They also swore not to issue or obey illegal orders. By their culture, using thalaron weapons would constitute an illegal order -- which would be, y'know, a betrayal of the Federation and its values.

And Erica Hernandes may have beeen human once; not anymore. Now she is a Caeliar, a transcedental, "perfect" being,

They never claimed or depicted her as transcendental or perfect. When she identifies herself as Caeliar, she's referring to culture -- she's emigrated and become integrated into Caeliar culture, and has had such a profound impact on them by prompting them to finally start changing and disregard their old stagnancy that she has an obligation to stay with them for its consequences.

It's a change of culture, not an ascension to a higher plane. The Caeliar are as saved by the Federation as the Federation is by the Caeliar.

[Silversmok3]

ProtoAvatar wrote:

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Picard, Riker and the rest of the federation "pretended" to try to stop the borg.
To be more exact, they were content to trade transphasic torpedos with the borg, knowing that the collective will adapt. And when the borg finally adapted, thay just grabed their heades and screamed in desperation - as dignified as possible, of course.
Where was the creativity that permeated almost every Star Trek episode? Well, I guess Data was responsible for it. So much for the myth about machines having no creativity.

And for the first time in his career - as depicted on-screen - Picard was an incompetent cry-baby. Before - even when he faced the borg - he always managed to pull himself together.

And about the ending - I dislike not only the fact that it transformed humans into the playthings of the gods, second class citizens of the universe, but that it also made the star trek universe a much darker place.

For example - In "A singular destiny", The Typhon Pact is introduced - an alliance of powers who were always hostile toward the Federation - and still are.
And, Sci - in "Losing the Peace", I doubt Picard was kidnapping governors because the situation was so rosy.

Deranged Nasat
La Forge's view is moral only for someone following an amish-like morality.
But, you see, both Picard and La Forge are in Starfleet - they swore to protect the Federation even if that means using deadly force against the aggressors - like in the Dominion War. By refusing to use deadly force against the borg, Picard and La Forge betrayed their Starfleet oath; they betrayed the Federation.
If Picard and La Forge were following an uncompromisingly pacifistic philosophy, they should not have enlisted in the first place - they were not fit to be Starfleet officers.

And Erica Hernandes may have beeen human once; not anymore. Now she is a Caeliar, a transcedental, "perfect" being, part of the rulling class of the universe. So far above "mere humans" that they should start praying to her.

First,if one is to sell their ethics for survival,ensure your survival first.The Borg controll an entire quadrant of the galaxy-no weapon,legal or illegal,woul have saved the Federation from defeat.Laforge may as well have made a slingshot for all it would do.It's part of a universal theme to allthe players in the novel:technology cannot exclusively save you from defeat.

[ProtoAvatar]

There was a discussion on this forum about the morality of using thalaron weapons in the situation described in "Destiny".
What were the arguments on your side of the debate? Let's see:
-It's genocide against the borg - I strongly disagree. Every borg killed in this manner is an an enemy soldier on a genocidal mission. In other words it's pure self-defence.
-It would lead to an arms race in the alpha/beta quadrants - which, even if it happens, is a much better outcome than these two quadrants being sterilized, than trillions dying.
-Using thalaron weapons is an illegal order - Not really; President Bracco authorised the use of anything that could stop the borg.
-The borg will just bring more reinforcements from the other side of the galaxy - No they won't; they can't - not for the next 70-100 years or so - the subspace tunnels were destroyed, remember? 100 years is a long time in which to prepare, to evacuate beyond the Milky Way, if necessary. If the borg failed to destroy humanity in "destiny", they failed to destroy humanity (and the other species in Alpha/Bata). Period. They won't get a second chance.
-It will never work - well, we'll never know now, will we?

[Sci]

ProtoAvatar wrote:

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-Using thalaron weapons is an illegal order - Not really; President Bracco authorised the use of anything that could stop the borg.

And yet her Secretary of Defense refused to use the weapon.

And despite what George W. Bush might have you think, Presidents do not have carte blanche to issue any order they want, even in time of war. The President has no more right to issue an illegal order than does a ship's captain. An illegal order is an illegal order no matter where it comes from.

-The borg will just bring more reinforcements from the other side of the galaxy - No they won't; they can't - not for the next 70-100 years or so - the subspace tunnels were destroyed, remember?

And then in 70 to 100 years, you're facing the destruction of the Federation again when the Collective's even larger armada reaches local space, and this time the Borg will have adapted to the thalaron weapon.

What's the use in betraying your ethics if doing so doesn't even achieve its objective? There's no point in making an "ends justify the means" argument if the means don't actually achieve the ends.

-It will never work - well, we'll never know now, will we?

Thankfully, no.

[ProtoAvatar]

Star Trek IS a much darker place after "Destiny".
Sure, a gazillion borg were liberated, but we'll most likely never hear from them again. What we'll read about is the situation in the Alpha/Beta - after 64 BILLIONS died. Can you even understand the immensity of the loss? I can't.

Erica Hernandez didn't call herself superior? The Caeliar saved half the galaxy? But of couse. They are, after all, benevolent gods. Perfect. Not encumbered by "human imperfection and human limitation".

Sci wrote:

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Yes, that's right, people who tried everything they could think of to save lives and then died for it just "weren't even trying."

Quoting...mysely - read it this time:
"Where was the creativity that permeated almost every Star Trek episode? Well, I guess Data was responsible for it. So much for the myth about machines having no creativity."

Sci wrote:

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Right, because your morality is Absolutely Right (TM) and if another culture diverges from that morality, they're wrong and Amish-like. (Nice disrespect for another culture there, BTW.)

Aren't we awfully eager to use the racism card?
For your information, the expression "amish-like morality" has nothing demeaning about it. It describes a morality that refuses any taking of lives, regardless of the circumstances.

Sci wrote:

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And then in 70 to 100 years, you're facing the destruction of the Federation again when the Collective's even larger armada reaches local space, and this time the Borg will have adapted to the thalaron weapon.

What's the use in betraying your ethics if doing so doesn't even achieve its objective? There's no point in making an "ends justify the means" argument if the means don't actually achieve the ends.

Quoting myself...again. Read my entire post!
"-The borg will just bring more reinforcements from the other side of the galaxy - No they won't; they can't - not for the next 70-100 years or so - the subspace tunnels were destroyed, remember? 100 years is a long time in which to prepare, to evacuate beyond the Milky Way, if necessary. If the borg failed to destroy humanity in "destiny", they failed to destroy humanity (and the other species in Alpha/Bata). Period. They won't get a second chance."

[Silversmok3]

ProtoAvatar wrote:

---

There was a discussion on this forum about the morality of using thalaron weapons in the situation described in "Destiny".
What were the arguments on your side of the debate? Let's see:
-It's genocide against the borg - I strongly disagree. Every borg killed in this manner is an an enemy soldier on a genocidal mission. In other words it's pure self-defence.
-It would lead to an arms race in the alpha/beta quadrants - which, even if it happens, is a much better outcome than these two quadrants being sterilized, than trillions dying.
-Using thalaron weapons is an illegal order - Not really; President Bracco authorised the use of anything that could stop the borg.
-The borg will just bring more reinforcements from the other side of the galaxy - No they won't; they can't - not for the next 70-100 years or so - the subspace tunnels were destroyed, remember? 100 years is a long time in which to prepare, to evacuate beyond the Milky Way, if necessary. If the borg failed to destroy humanity in "destiny", they failed to destroy humanity (and the other species in Alpha/Bata). Period. It won't get a second chance.
-It will never work - well, we'll never know now, will we?

IIRC the Borg sent thousands of cubes to the Alpha quadrant.Assuming a 75% loss on the part of the Borg,that still leaves 2000 cubes that are practically indestructable by every weapon available including transphasic torpedoes.If the thalaron weapon took down 90% of the 2000 cubes left that still leaves you with 200 indestructible cubes roaming free ,and the Borg only need one cube to destroy a planet.

See,we do know what would happen:with the Thaleron weapon Starfleet has 3 days to anihilation instead of 12 hours.

[Deranged Nasat]

ProtoAvatar wrote:

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Star Trek IS a much darker place after "Destiny".
Sure, a gazillion borg were liberated, but we'll most likely never hear from them again. What we'll read about is the situation in the Alpha/Beta - after 64 BILLIONS died. Can you even understand the immensity of the loss? I can't.

Erica Hernandez didn't call herself superior? The Caeliar saved half the galaxy? But of couse. They are, after all, benevolent gods. Perfect. Not encumbered by "human imperfection and human limitation"..

I thought the Caeliar's story arc was realizing they have stagnated and withdrawn from life when they should be bettering themselves and others? They are not perfect (apart from in Sedin's twisted mind). It is humanity which restores the Caeliar, or more specifically, Hernandez. I for one share an immense dislike of "Human inferiority/limitation" philosophies, but these books didn't offer one (no Trek does, in my view) and there's nothing wrong with asking others for help when you need it. The Federation couldn't win the war. It required help, the Caeliar offered it. This does not shame humanity, surely?

ProtoAvatar wrote:

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Quoting...mysely - read it this time:
"Where was the creativity that permeated almost every Star Trek episode? Well, I guess Data was responsible for it. So much for the myth about machines having no creativity."


Aren't we awfully eager to use the racism card?
For your information, the expression "amish-like morality" has nothing demeaning about it. It describes a morality that refuses any taking of lives, regardless of the circumstances..

But why equate such a morality to Geordi? Geordi is not a complete pacifist. His objection to the creation of thalaron weapons was not due to an unwillingness to fight Borg. It is also moral whatever our- or anyone's- moral preferences, as he was motivated by his own personal sense of ethics.

ProtoAvatar wrote:

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Quoting myself...again. Read my entire post!
"-The borg will just bring more reinforcements from the other side of the galaxy - No they won't; they can't - not for the next 70-100 years or so - the subspace tunnels were destroyed, remember? 100 years is a long time in which to prepare, to evacuate beyond the Milky Way, if necessary. If the borg failed to destroy humanity in "destiny", they failed to destroy humanity (and the other species in Alpha/Bata). Period. They won't get a second chance."

Seven insisted there was no escape- the Borg would hunt them down wherever they went. Into intergalactioc space isn't an option, anyway. No supplies...

[Silversmok3]

ProtoAvatar wrote:

---

Star Trek IS a much darker place after "Destiny".
Sure, a gazillion borg were liberated, but we'll most likely never hear from them again. What we'll read about is the situation in the Alpha/Beta - after 64 BILLIONS died. Can you even understand the immensity of the loss? I can't.

Erica Hernandez didn't call herself superior? The Caeliar saved half the galaxy? But of couse. They are, after all, benevolent gods. Perfect. Not encumbered by "human imperfection and human limitation".

Quoting...mysely - read it this time:
"Where was the creativity that permeated almost every Star Trek episode? Well, I guess Data was responsible for it. So much for the myth about machines having no creativity."


Aren't we awfully eager to use the racism card?
For your information, the expression "amish-like morality" has nothing demeaning about it. It describes a morality that refuses any taking of lives, regardless of the circumstances.

Quoting myself...again. Read my entire post!
"-The borg will just bring more reinforcements from the other side of the galaxy - No they won't; they can't - not for the next 70-100 years or so - the subspace tunnels were destroyed, remember? 100 years is a long time in which to prepare, to evacuate beyond the Milky Way, if necessary. If the borg failed to destroy humanity in "destiny", they failed to destroy humanity (and the other species in Alpha/Bata). Period. They won't get a second chance."

There would be no evacuation,as to do so the Federation and allies would have to destory the cubes present in the quadrant already.

But let us indulge in the fantasy for a second.Tech advancement cuts both ways:it's much easier for the Borg to find a way to get to the Alpha Quadrant in less tha a century than for a war-depleted Starfleet to come up with a weapon capable of destroying thousands of cubes at once.

[Sci]

ProtoAvatar wrote:

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Star Trek IS a much darker place after "Destiny".
Sure, a gazillion borg were liberated, but we'll most likely never hear from them again. What we'll read about is the situation in the Alpha/Beta - after 64 BILLIONS died. Can you even understand the immensity of the loss? I can't.

You said it's a darker place after the end of Destiny, implying that the scene in which the Caeliar dissolve the Collective and liberate its slaves made the Trekverse darker. I'm contesting that concept.

As for the above... That doesn't make the Trekverse darker, that makes the stories that take place in local space darker. Why is it that if the Borg assimilate or exterminate a civilization in the Delta Quadrant off-screen, that doesn't make the Trekverse a darker place, but it does if it happens to "our" characters? That's a bit of a Federation-centric POV.

It certainly makes the situation for the Federation darker. But it's also an opportunity to rebuild a Federation that's much less arrogant, much more sensitive to cultures that do not exist in states of abundance, much less prone to believe in its own propaganda about how much more "evolved" it is than other cultures. And, as A Singular Destiny points out, it's also an opportunity for the Federation to react to its trauma by reaching out and building closer ties of friendship and mutual sacrifice with its neighbors.

The immensity of the Federation's loss should not be understated. But by the same token, it's a mistake to say that that trauma alone defines the Federation and its future now. It's like Europe after World War II -- yes, Europe was left in ruins, heavily dependent on foreign aid, with 42 million dead. That's horrible and the tragedy of it cannot be over-stated.

But by the same token, Europe rebuilt. And I don't think a reasonable person can look at Europe today and say that the Europe that grew out of the darkness of World War II is not a better, more moral, more peaceful Europe than existed before. Even in the wake of the most horrific war in human history, there was reason for hope -- and that hope grew and flowered into the beacon of democracy and prosperity that is the European Union and its member states.

Europe after World War II was darker than Europe before, certainly. But it's a much brighter Europe that grew out of World War II and the Cold War than ever existed before.

Erica Hernandez didn't call herself superior? The Caeliar saved half the galaxy? But of couse. They are, after all, benevolent gods.

Circular logic. "Hernandez and the Caeliar are benevolent gods, and they do not call themselves superior only because they are benevolent gods."

There's nothing particularly god-like about the Caeliar other than mere physical power -- but if we hold them to be gods, we'd have to do the same for the Q, or the Metrons, or the Organians. (Funny how no one complains about the Organians stopping the Federation-Klingon War even though they bitch and moan about the Caeliar stopping the Borg invasion.)

And as I noted above, the Caeliar only saved the Federation because they realized that their own culture was stagnant, suffocating, and dying. They saw the values of the Federation up-close in Hernandez and on a macro level in the Federation, and realized that they needed to evolve and change, that their dogma was insufficient. By dissolving the Collective, they saved themselves -- by inspiring them to dissolve the Collective, the Federation saved the Caeliar.

If this is salvation, it is mutual salvation. The Caeliar convert to Federation values and save the Federation from imminent destruction in return. I can't say that fits the "we should just submit to the will of the benevolent gods and abandon human progress" message you're claiming Destiny sends.

Aren't we awfully eager to use the racism card?

It bloody well sounded demeaning to the Amish.

"-The borg will just bring more reinforcements from the other side of the galaxy - No they won't; they can't - not for the next 70-100 years or so - the subspace tunnels were destroyed, remember? 100 years is a long time in which to prepare,

But all preparations would be futile. You are talking about a power so technologically advanced that there is no reasonable hope of ever finding a way to destroy/disable them through your own efforts, especially when they come en masse. And 100 years is also a lot of time for the Borg to prepare -- to, for instance, rebuild their transwarp network.

to evacuate beyond the Milky Way,

First off, the idea of evacuating known space is so absurd as to be laughable on its face. People just don't move that easily. They never will. Hell, we can't even evacuate New Orleans in time to avoid hundreds and hundreds of people dying in hurricanes. In real life, mass migrations like that tend to lead to massive death counts. You're going to tell me that they can evacuate billions of people from hundreds of planets in less than 100 years, without an unacceptably high death count?

And go where? Even without transwarp, Borg ships are far faster than Federation technology. Seven of Nine rather memorably argued that the Federation needed to escape beyond the Borg's reach -- but there is nowhere beyond the Borg's reach that the Federation can access. The Borg would find them. It would only be delaying the inevitable destruction of the Federation and its societies. As she put it, "They know where you are, and they are no committed to your annihilation.... They will come. And when they do, your civilization will be eradicated. All that you have built, all that you have labored to preserve, will be erased from history. You cannot stop them, ever. As long as they exist, you will never be free."

if necessary. If the borg failed to destroy humanity in "destiny", they failed to destroy humanity (and the other species in Alpha/Bata). Period. It won't get a second chance.

If I'm understanding what you're saying -- that if the Federation had used the thalaron weapon in Destiny III, the Borg would have failed to destroy humanity and would not have had a second chance:

Absolute nonsense. The Borg would have nothing but second chances. The only thing the Borg would ever need is time. The only way to defeat them, in the end, would be for a far more physically powerful civilization to intervene on the Federation's behalf, and that was always a fact.

[Christopher]

ProtoAvatar wrote:

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-The borg will just bring more reinforcements from the other side of the galaxy - No they won't; they can't - not for the next 70-100 years or so - the subspace tunnels were destroyed, remember?

It wouldn't take them anywhere near that long. Voyager's original 70-year estimate was from the very farthest edge of the Delta Quadrant, 75,000 light-years away from the Federation. Borg territory extends much closer to the Federation, as close as 30,000 light-years, and Star Charts shows an offshoot section of Borg space even closer, a mere 5,000 or so light-years away (this might be the source of the Borg supercube from Resistance/Before Dishonor). And even the Borg's conventional warp drive is probably more powerful and efficient than Starfleet warp drive. So even without the subspace tunnels, they were probably within 15 or 20 years of invading the Federation.

[ProtoAvatar]

Deranged Nasat
"I for one share an immense dislike of "Human inferiority/limitation" philosophies, but these books didn't offer one (no Trek does, in my view) and there's nothing wrong with asking others for help when you need it."

Weren't you applauding Sci's speech about human imperfection, human limitation and human failure, depicted in "Destiny", opposed to the Caeliar's superiority - beings who easily solved a problem that was way beyond humanity's capabilities?

Silvermosk3, Deranged Nasat
OK. Let's run some numbers. Initially, there were 7000+ cubes. 3500/half were destroyed in Dax's plan. A few thousand more were destroyed by transphasics.
Let's say 1500 remain. Let's say Picard manages to gather the majority of those cubes in one place - by sending fake omega particle readings or some other smart (for a change) plan - and destroys them with the thalaron weapon.

Starfleet has slipstream drive - when it comes to crossing intergalactic distances, it's the only way to fly, baby!. In 100 years, thousands/tens of thousands of convoys will be send beyond the milky way - carrying tens of BILLIONS of refugees. The alpha/beta civilizations will survive.

"Space is big. Really big. You just won't believe how vastly hugely mindbogglingly big it is." - That goes double for intergalactic distances. The borg can have as many cubes as they want. They will never find all the convoys. Not even close.
We know many species ascend into beings made of pure thought, pure energy - incredibly powerfull beings. Sooner or later, humanity or another alpha/beta species will manage this performance. It may take eons, but then, the tide of the war will turn in humanity's favour.

And, unlike the Federation, the borg are not the creative type; they don't develop technologies, they assimilate them. I think that, after 50-100 years, the Federation will be in a much better position to confront the borg.

[ProtoAvatar]

Christopher wrote:

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It wouldn't take them anywhere near that long. Voyager's original 70-year estimate was from the very farthest edge of the Delta Quadrant, 75,000 light-years away from the Federation. Borg territory extends much closer to the Federation, as close as 30,000 light-years, and Star Charts shows an offshoot section of Borg space even closer, a mere 5,000 or so light-years away (this might be the source of the Borg supercube from Resistance/Before Dishonor). And even the Borg's conventional warp drive is probably more powerful and efficient than Starfleet warp drive. So even without the subspace tunnels, they were probably within 15 or 20 years of invading the Federation.

Not according to "Mere Mortals" and an alarmed 7 of 9 :

"She pulled him backward, off balance. Borg assimilation tubules extended from the steely implant still grafted to her left hand as she pressed her fingertips against his jugular. The tubules hovered above his skin but did not penetrate it—yet.
Around her and the admiral, the combat operations center became deathly quiet.
“If you do not escape beyond the Borg’s reach, you will never be safe,” she said, all but hissing the words into the trembling man’s ear. “They know where you are, and they are now committed to your annihilation. Even if you collapse the subspace tunnels, they can still reach you by normal warp travel. It may take them decades. Perhaps even a century. But they will come. And when they do, your civilization will be eradicated. All that you have built, all that you have labored to preserve, will be erased from history. You cannot stop them, ever. As long as they exist, you will never be free.”

[Sci]

ProtoAvatar wrote:

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Not according to "Mere Mortals" and an alarmed 7 of 9:

"She pulled him backward, off balance. Borg assimilation tubules extended from the steely implant still grafted to her left hand as she pressed her fingertips against his jugular. The tubules hovered above his skin but did not penetrate it—yet.
Around her and the admiral, the combat operations center became deathly quiet.
“If you do not escape beyond the Borg’s reach, you will never be safe,” she said, all but hissing the words into the trembling man’s ear. “They know where you are, and they are now committed to your annihilation. Even if you collapse the subspace tunnels, they can still reach you by normal warp travel. It may take them decades. Perhaps even a century. But they will come. And when they do, your civilization will be eradicated. All that you have built, all that you have labored to preserve, will be erased from history. You cannot stop them, ever. As long as they exist, you will never be free.”

She's being generous in assuming that the Federation would have a century to demonstrate that even with a huge amount of lead time, they'd still be doomed. There's no reason to think that the Federation actually has a century.

[Deranged Nasat]

ProtoAvatar wrote:

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Deranged Nasat
"I for one share an immense dislike of "Human inferiority/limitation" philosophies, but these books didn't offer one (no Trek does, in my view) and there's nothing wrong with asking others for help when you need it."

Weren't you applauding Sci's speech about human imperfection, human limitation and human failure, depicted in "Destiny", opposed to the Caeliar's superiority - beings who easily solved a problem that was way beyond humanity's capabilities?

I think you're misrepresenting Sci's comments, myself. Yes, I applauded those comments on the neccessity of being aware of your own limitations, but Sci did not put humanity down, he/she simply acknowledged the wisdom of accepting "yes, this is beyond us. We are not perfect". There are degrees of accepting limitation and failure, and, as Sci said, full awareness of oneself promotes humanity far better than a "we can do anything" hubris and arrogant self-satisfaction. Sci's comments were not akin to the "humans are shameful, sinful failures" attitude, quite the opposite. Part of promoting the human spirit is to accept it is at times going to fail.

Also, I apologise if I'm being repetitive, but the Caeliar were not portrayed as our gods, and we as helpless fools. They were technologically more advanced, but socially, philosophically? Ultimately, they became humanity's allies. The Federation has capabilities far in advance of many of the races they meet. You wouldn't suggest that makes them superior to these races?

ProtoAvatar wrote:

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Silvermosk3, Deranged Nasat
OK. Let's run some numbers. Initially, there were 7000+ cubes. 3500/half were destroyed in Dax's plan. A few thousand more were destroyed by transphasics.
Let's say 1500 remain. Let's say Picard manages to gather the majority of those cubes in one place - by sending fake omega particle readings or some other smart (for a change) plan - and destroys them with the thalaron weapon.

Starfleet has slipstream drive - when it comes to crossing intergalactic distances, it's the only way to fly, baby!. In 100 years, thousands/tens of thousands of convoys will be send beyond the milky way - carrying tens of BILLIONS of refugees. The alpha/beta civilizations will survive.

"Space is big. Really big. You just won't believe how vastly hugely mindbogglingly big it is." - That goes double for intergalactic distances. The borg can have as many cubes as they want. They will never find all the convoys. Not even close.
We know many species ascend into beings made of pure thought, pure energy - incredibly powerfull beings. Sooner or later, humanity or another species will manage this performance. It may take eons, but then, the tide of the war will turn in humanity's favour.

And , unlike the Federation, the borg are not the creative type; they don't develop technologies, they assimilate them. I think that, after 50-100 years, the Federation will be in a much better position to confront the borg.

If President Bacco were to say "we're evacuating the Federation. We're packing everyone into cramped ships fitted with new, experimental propulsion, leaving our homes and worlds and going out into intergalactic space where there are no supplies, and wait to ascend into non-corporeality", she wouldn't remain a popular President for long...