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Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

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Old June 30 2009, 02:14 AM   #1981
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Course Oblivion only gets 2 stars out of 4 from me.

It's not so much bad as disappointing. I thought it started off with a mystery that I found quite involving with the ship much closer to home and a new warp drive, Torres/Paris getting married, Torres dying etc. Then the big reveal comes and it was such a let down. It lost me there. "That's it?"

The episode had a few fleeting moments of poignancy especially towards the end where the duplicate VOY disintegrates just as the real one arrives never knowing of the adventures of their doppelgangers but the bulk of the episode just didn't work. Still, it is better than the next episode which I consider the show's worst--"The Fight"(pointless appearance by Ray Walston, overdose on technobabble, cringe-worthy acting by Beltran/Picardo, incoherent weird story, bland Chakotay as the headliner).
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Old June 30 2009, 04:43 AM   #1982
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Course Oblivion...I found it odd that they decided to revisit Demon of all things.

I actually kind of like this episode, but I can't really explain why.

I don't think they actually built a new Voyager, I think it just somehow..formed like they did.

Probably best not to think about it too much, you'll just give yourself a headache.
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Old June 30 2009, 09:11 AM   #1983
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Course: Oblivion is one of my favourites. 9/10.
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Old June 30 2009, 01:09 PM   #1984
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

startrekwatcher wrote: View Post
It's not so much bad as disappointing. I thought it started off with a mystery that I found quite involving with the ship much closer to home and a new warp drive, Torres/Paris getting married, Torres dying etc. Then the big reveal comes and it was such a let down. It lost me there. "That's it?"
That's the problem for me. When I first saw the episode I was shocked but pleased that Tom and B'Elanna were getting married because it showed that things were actually happening on Voyager, I was disappointed to find out that this wasn't happening to the real Tom and B'Elanna. If the episode had played out like a normal Voyager episode with nothing spectacular happening until people get sick then I would have enjoyed it more.
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Old June 30 2009, 02:25 PM   #1985
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

GodBen wrote: View Post
Demon Spawn (**)

Come on, that's a way better title than Course: Oblivion.

I somehow missed Demon when it first aired so when I saw this episode for the first time I thought it was quite good, but having seem Demon twice since then this episode just doesn't make sense. Where did the biomemetic Voyager come from? According to the timeline established in this episode they had under 13 days to build Voyager (and replicate Shmully somehow) and leave the demon planet, forgetting who they really are in the process. They also adapted to breath oxygen even though it was poisonous to them last time.

I like the idea of this episode, I like quirky episodes like this where everything is seen from a different angle than how we usually see things. But I think that the fatal mistake this episode makes is that events happening on this duplicate Voyager are more interesting than the normally static nature of the real Voyager. Tom and B'Elanna get married, a new baby is born, they devise a new method of propulsion, people actually die... The ending is a reset button of sorts and next week we'll go back to a Voyager where there is 9 main characters who will fail to grow as they did on the duplicate ship. We'll have to wait another year and a half before we see the real Tom and B'Elanna get married, and even then we wont actually see it.
Exactly my thoughts on this episode, except that I'd rate it even lower. I though "Demon" was ok. This episode just annoyed me though, for all the reasons you named. This is one of those episodes that I never plan on seeing again.
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Old June 30 2009, 04:19 PM   #1986
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

What made them think 'Demon' of all episodes warranted a sequel? I mean... It's DEMON. My head's still recovering from the banging against the wall that one did. Granted, I do consider Course: Oblivion (Demon Spawn is a good name, actually. It just gives away their 'twist' a hell of a lot sooner) better than Demon, but, really, I don't want to know what could be worse than Demon. Oh, wait. Code of Honor.

And I'm seriously bugged by the fact that... Just where the heck did they get the technology required to build the ship and they just forgot that they were 'biomemetic lifeforms' or whatever? I mean, that's kind of a big thing to forget.

Nice effort, but was this needed, especially in light of the fact that they break down completely before encountering the real Voyager? I mean, it's not an episode unhappening, but it's basically an hour spent just watching peope die for no other reason than fate's made them their bitch. *Beat* Huh. And I used to say Voyager was never depressing...
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Old June 30 2009, 04:34 PM   #1987
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Ahhh, Tom and B'Elanna, you are indeed my favourite fully biological characters on this show! I quite liked this episode and at least it wasn't all a dream, even if it didn't happen to the real crew.
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Old June 30 2009, 04:35 PM   #1988
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

But what was that stuff about nearly being home? They're not really, are they?
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Old June 30 2009, 04:52 PM   #1989
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Pemmer Harge wrote: View Post
But what was that stuff about nearly being home? They're not really, are they?
The copies had developed a quantum slipstream drive, IIRC, so they were. The real crew however is still on the far side of the Beta quadrant.
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Old June 30 2009, 07:08 PM   #1990
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

GodBen wrote: View Post
Demon Spawn (**)

Come on, that's a way better title than Course: Oblivion.

I somehow missed Demon when it first aired so when I saw this episode for the first time I thought it was quite good, but having seem Demon twice since then this episode just doesn't make sense. Where did the biomemetic Voyager come from? According to the timeline established in this episode they had under 13 days to build Voyager (and replicate Shmully somehow) and leave the demon planet, forgetting who they really are in the process. They also adapted to breath oxygen even though it was poisonous to them last time.
You know, all I could figure is that when Voyager was sinking in the biomimetic goo in "Demon" that after the ship left the remaining goo congealed into another ship, and the duplicates forgot who they were. And apparently, the replicated Voyager tech works as if it were the real thing except the advanced warp core, so I guess that's where the EMH came from. Regarding what they were breathing, I was guessing it wasn't "really" oxygen, just how the ship wasn't "really" made of duranium and whatnot, but it read that way to their fake sensors.

Flimsy, but that's about the best I could do.

GodBen wrote: View Post
I like the idea of this episode, I like quirky episodes like this where everything is seen from a different angle than how we usually see things. But I think that the fatal mistake this episode makes is that events happening on this duplicate Voyager are more interesting than the normally static nature of the real Voyager. Tom and B'Elanna get married, a new baby is born, they devise a new method of propulsion, people actually die... The ending is a reset button of sorts and next week we'll go back to a Voyager where there is 9 main characters who will fail to grow as they did on the duplicate ship. We'll have to wait another year and a half before we see the real Tom and B'Elanna get married, and even then we wont actually see it.

Does anybody else find it ironic that duplicate Harry appears to be the last main character to die on the duplicate ship. Things really are different there.
Rule # 3 reinforced again.

Generally, I agree with your assessment. Stuff actually happened on this Voyager, and, honestly, I felt a little worse for them than I might have for the "real" ones.
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Old June 30 2009, 08:23 PM   #1991
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

The Fight (0)

The final shot of this episode gets it exactly right; this episode is like being punched in the head.
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Old June 30 2009, 09:06 PM   #1992
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Yeah, the Fight sucks. 0/10
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Old June 30 2009, 09:10 PM   #1993
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

"The Fight" gets 1 star out of four from me. This is VOY's worst episode.

I don't mind technobabble but this episode overdosed on it to the point where I just had to tune out bcause it was just so tiring to hear as reams and reams of it was spouted. This also had a pointless guest appearance by Walston. I hate boxing. Beltran looked ridiculous in the boxing uniform even wearing a t-shirt. Beltran and Picardo's acting were horrible. The pop psychology was totally incoherent.

This also shows that Menosky has a hard time either getting a handle on these weird symbolic concept shows or that they are good ideas but just not well suited for a one hour episode. I didn't care for his TNG's "Emergence" or "Masks" or DS9's "Distance Voices" either and now this episode.

Thankfully this back-to-back-to-back trifecta of crap ends with "Think Tank" but unfortunately goes back to weak crap with "Juggernaut". Season five is just inconsistent in quality.
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Old June 30 2009, 09:16 PM   #1994
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

"The Fight" is a little worse than "Threshold" IMO.

No stars for you!
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Old June 30 2009, 10:15 PM   #1995
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

GodBen wrote: View Post
But all that came to an end this afternoon thanks to the truth being exposed to be by the brilliant musings of Anwar. His argument cut to the core of my being without even knowing me or reading much of this thread. Who can argue against such insightful comments as "once a hater always a hater" or the pinnacle of human debate which is "yes, actually, yes"? I tried to argue against it, but my rebuttals could never match such well thought out arguments.

So I am sorry to everybody who read this thread thinking that I was trying to be fair to the show, I can only ask for your forgiveness on this deception.
Hey! I have to read that damn thread. Don't make light of my suffering

Actually, I'm glad you mentioned this thread over there because it caught my attention and now I've read it. You definitely have good insights, even if I don't agree entirely always. It gives a fresh perspective on Voyager without having to actually rewatch all the episodes (actually, in many cases, watch them in the first place, since I tended to watch just the "big" episodes and almost gave up on those after Dark Frontier).

As far as the torpedo count goes (I forgive them for the shuttle count because they at least don't specifically say shuttles can't be replicated and they did build other flying craft), I wonder how the count would be if they didn't waste 13 in Night (which I can't think of any excuse for, it wasn't even that serious of an enemy). I'm surprised they actually did a good job rationing them before that point. I guess if they could go through the remaining show using only 3 (yeah, not going to happen) and I could forgive them (Night was a waste of good potential anyway).
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