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Old June 29 2009, 03:42 AM   #1966
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

A few other things I wanted to mention but forgot to about "Dark Frontier":

It was a big break through moment when Seven asserted to the Queen that "I am Annika". I thought that moment was a pivotal turning point for Seven and thought we'd see her taking more steps towards this beginning with using Annika as her name yet she was back to Seven the next week.

It really wasn't until the final season and "Human Error" that this sort of character development was addressed again. I don't fault "Dark Frontier" for doing it I was just disappointed nothing more came of it.

I also found Torres just collapsing the conduit to be a rather anti-climatic way to resolve the threat despite the fact it was set-up much earlier in the episode.
NumberSix wrote: View Post
I'm actually a fan of the Borg Queen and prefer Susannah Thompson over Alice Krige - she just seems so much more 'in control' than Alice's more emotional portrayal. I was disappointed in Endgame when they used Alice instead of Susannah, Susannah was the Voyager queen, Alice was the First Contact queen!
This may sound inconsistent but I loved the way Alice Krige slinked around, her accent, her body language, the way she expresses things through her eyes, the way she cocks her head but Susannah acted more like a Borg that you'd expect--in control, not being so expressive.

Still to this day Patrick Stewart's chilling performance as Locutus is the standard to which all Borg performances should be measured. He managed to convey menace without being overt about it yet was also very much an emotionless automaton. He masterfully walked that very fine line.
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Old June 29 2009, 05:50 AM   #1967
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

NumberSix wrote: View Post
I liked seeing Seven finally displaying her emotions in relation to the Borg as well, I don't think she ever says "I am Borg" after that episode.
You know, I think you're right - after this it becomes 'I WAS Borg,' and always with the emphasis on the fact that it's past tense. She comes to realize that she was taken by the Borg and used.

Why couldn't they have gone for more of this subtle character development - even if you don't care for arc-based writing, you can still get in minor evolutions that become noticable upon rewatching.
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Old June 29 2009, 02:18 PM   #1968
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

startrekwatcher wrote: View Post
Still to this day Patrick Stewart's chilling performance as Locutus is the standard to which all Borg performances should be measured. He managed to convey menace without being overt about it yet was also very much an emotionless automaton. He masterfully walked that very fine line.
Absolutely, he was the perfect individual within the collective and he acted more as the mouthpiece for the whole rather than the leader of the group. That was the queens biggest flaw, she acted more like she was controlling the collective rather than serving as a conduit for them.

Plus, Locutus had a frickin' laser beam attached to his head!


The Disease (**)

KIM: All Starfleet personnel must obtain authorisation from their C.O. as well as clearance from their medical officer before initiating an intimate relationship with an alien species.
Say wha?! That must be a fun conversation with your boss. "Captain, I have met a hot alien chick in a bar and I wish to bone her, can I get your permission in writing please?"

This episode wasn't that bad considering its reputation, I particularly liked the moment where Kim stands up to Janeway on the bridge and then they argue it out in her ready room. The idea of a generation ship that wants to separate into different factions is also interesting even though it's not properly explored here.

Problems? There's too many for me to remember them all but the biggest problem is how cringeworthy certain pieces of dialogue can get, which is fine in the scenes where it is supposed to be cringe-worthy but there's other times where it is just annoying. I'm thinking of Janeway's discussion with the alien captain at the beginning in particular. I also didn't like how the episode went with the suspense angle again when Voyager couldn't escape the exploding ship. That should have played as a hauntingly beautiful moment rather than yet another "We're all gonna die!!!" scene.

Yes, I gave it the same score as Drone. Suck it.
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Old June 29 2009, 02:54 PM   #1969
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

GodBen wrote: View Post
KIM: All Starfleet personnel must obtain authorisation from their C.O. as well as clearance from their medical officer before initiating an intimate relationship with an alien species.
Say wha?! That must be a fun conversation with your boss. "Captain, I have met a hot alien chick in a bar and I wish to bone her, can I get your permission in writing please?"
Heh heh Since watching this for the first time a few months ago I've been looking out for times that it's not followed - eg Janeway herself snogging Kashyk a few episodes back - she didn't drag him to the EMH 'doc, I'd like to insert my tongue into this guy's mouth, can you check if we're compatible please?!'
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Old June 29 2009, 04:00 PM   #1970
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Harry Kim, a model Starfleet officer who's served for five years doesn't have the right to question Janeway, but Chakotay, a terrorist she captured, does?
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Old June 29 2009, 04:27 PM   #1971
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Poor Harry. Of course he would have to be the one to catch space herpes.

That whole "ask your CO and CMO before intimate relations" deal is a crock.

How many times has say, Riker hooked up with an alien? Are we really expected to believe that he asked Picard and Crusher for permission before each encounter?
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Old June 29 2009, 05:11 PM   #1972
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

destro wrote: View Post
Poor Harry. Of course he would have to be the one to catch space herpes.

That whole "ask your CO and CMO before intimate relations" deal is a crock.

How many times has say, Riker hooked up with an alien? Are we really expected to believe that he asked Picard and Crusher for permission before each encounter?
I think talking to the CMO before a sexual encounter with an alien is a good idea. And Riker didn't have sex that often and when he did in First Contact he wasn't given much of a choice, of course it's still up in the air whether or not he had sex.
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Old June 29 2009, 05:15 PM   #1973
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

The Disease gets only 1.5 stars out of four from me.

It was dull as dirt. Kim's romance was bland. The aliens were bland. The aliens' make-up was bland. Tal was bland. The romance was bland. Kim was annoying. The jeopardy plot was lacking. The "message" of the episode was simplistic.
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Old June 29 2009, 05:20 PM   #1974
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I think talking to the CMO before a sexual encounter with an alien is a good idea. And Riker didn't have sex that often and when he did in First Contact he wasn't given much of a choice, of course it's still up in the air whether or not he had sex.
It's a good idea. It just happens to be at odds with everything we've seen before.

So let's vote. Did Crusher have to give medical clearance before the TNG crew visited the Edo? Yes? No? I mean, they didn't bother finding out anything else about the planet...
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Old June 29 2009, 07:34 PM   #1975
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

startrekwatcher wrote: View Post
Tal was bland.
Maybe so, but she was also stunningly sexy.
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Old June 29 2009, 08:45 PM   #1976
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Silvercrest wrote: View Post
I think talking to the CMO before a sexual encounter with an alien is a good idea. And Riker didn't have sex that often and when he did in First Contact he wasn't given much of a choice, of course it's still up in the air whether or not he had sex.
It's a good idea. It just happens to be at odds with everything we've seen before.

So let's vote. Did Crusher have to give medical clearance before the TNG crew visited the Edo? Yes? No? I mean, they didn't bother finding out anything else about the planet...
Did anybody have sex with any of the Edo? And yes Dr. Crusher gave her consent for people t obe sent to the Edo planet.
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Old June 29 2009, 08:48 PM   #1977
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Okay, I admit it's been a while since I watched. I didn't recall that they actually consulted Dr. Crusher. But it was heavily implied that if they hadn't already started boinking the Edo, they were going to. "Any hat", indeed.
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Old June 29 2009, 09:05 PM   #1978
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Silvercrest wrote: View Post
Okay, I admit it's been a while since I watched. I didn't recall that they actually consulted Dr. Crusher. But it was heavily implied that if they hadn't already started boinking the Edo, they were going to. "Any hat", indeed.
She gave persmission for the landing parties, but I don't think anybody had sex the Edo.
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Old June 29 2009, 10:36 PM   #1979
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

GodBen wrote: View Post
Dark Frontier (**½)

Janeway goes up against the Borg queen in the very centre of the Borg Collective? I can see why they decided this concept was worthy of a tele-movie, but that central premise is the fundamental flaw of this episode. You can't have someone march into the very core of the Borg and walk right out again and not make the Borg look like incompetents. I said back during The Omega Directive that they began destroying the mythology of the Borg, well this is the episode where they make the Borg look very foolish.

There is some good stuff in here which helps to balance out the episode, I particularly liked seeing the Borg assimilate that planet. It occurs to me that this is the only time we have ever seen a full-scale invasion by the Borg, and while I would have liked to see some planet-side action of the Borg beaming down and assimilating people, I'm happy with what we got on the spaceships.

There's some good stuff and some bad, but ultimately this episode does more harm to the image of the Borg than good. And what's with all the green lights on Borg ships? I know there was some ever since FC, but this has become overkill at this point.

Shuttles Lost: 13
Torpedoes: 48/38


One shuttle was lost in the attack on the sphere. One torpedo was beamed aboard the Borg ship at the beginning and Voyager fired six and the conduit at the end of the episode. We've already jumped the shark, we may as well jump a whale now, eh?

Totally agreed. "Dark Frontier" is one of those that is kind of engaging and interesting to watch, but has so many logical holes and disappointing/conflicting elements that it just leaves you... wanting.

Tomalak wrote: View Post
Susanna Thompson just isn't as good as Alice Krige either. She totally lacks the presence and menace that made the Queen so effective in First Contact.
I agree. I don't think the Queen jumped the shark here, but "Unimatrix Zero"? Blech. I was one who wanted to believe that the "personality" the Queen exhibits was a combined reflection of the individuality of all the drones in the collective, but it gets really hard to believe it.

DGCatAniSiri wrote: View Post
Something that sticks out and irritates me, and I know it's really kind of minor, but Chakotay says Janeway 'always' fiddles with her commbadge when she's planning something - a character trait we've never seen before or will see again. It just bugs me that they made up this character trait for the sake of a two second joke, and is just another symptom of the 'Just Didn't Care' attitude we got from the writers.

The biggest thing for me in this episode was the glimpses into the days leading up Seven's assimilation (and, you know, learning that the Hansons fail at parenting forever...). Though when in 'The Raven' did they have time to download the ship's logs, given that it was blown to hell by the Hardheaded Aliens of the Week? Well, anyway. I liked Susanna Thompson's more clinical approach to the Borg Queen - Not that I disliked Alice Krige, because I definitely think that she IS the Queen, but Thompson, I think, is a fine alternative to her.

Of course, I do have to comment on the biggest irritant of the episode, worst than the commbadge thing above, is the fact that they show the assimilated Magnus Hanson and, other than Seven's 'Daddy?' it's a complete non-event, including his implied death (given that it's implied that he was in the Queen's Diamond when it was destroyed). I mean, it's shock value is ripped out by the lack of reaction after that one moment.

In fact, the finding the Magnus drone could have been a completely separate episode - the crew comes across one of those interceptors like they destroyed at the start that's been seriously trashed by some ion storm or something, they raid it and there he is. Some bit of humanity from Seven causes her to bring him back, try to de-Borgify him.

I'd probably rate Dark Frontier in the three star range - yeah, I was entertained, but in the long run, it didn't do much more than show off the special effects and it really did damage to the Borg - the crew hits the heart of the Collective and walks away? I'm with GodBen here - that's a blow to the Borg's effectiveness that they can't recover from, even with the 'excuse' of how the Queen wants to have Seven's unique experience among individuals to continue.
I agree.

GodBen wrote: View Post
The Disease (**)

KIM: All Starfleet personnel must obtain authorisation from their C.O. as well as clearance from their medical officer before initiating an intimate relationship with an alien species.
Say wha?! That must be a fun conversation with your boss. "Captain, I have met a hot alien chick in a bar and I wish to bone her, can I get your permission in writing please?"

This episode wasn't that bad considering its reputation, I particularly liked the moment where Kim stands up to Janeway on the bridge and then they argue it out in her ready room. The idea of a generation ship that wants to separate into different factions is also interesting even though it's not properly explored here.

Problems? There's too many for me to remember them all but the biggest problem is how cringeworthy certain pieces of dialogue can get, which is fine in the scenes where it is supposed to be cringe-worthy but there's other times where it is just annoying. I'm thinking of Janeway's discussion with the alien captain at the beginning in particular. I also didn't like how the episode went with the suspense angle again when Voyager couldn't escape the exploding ship. That should have played as a hauntingly beautiful moment rather than yet another "We're all gonna die!!!" scene.

Yes, I gave it the same score as Drone. Suck it.
I agree with your assessment of "Bliss." It's not as bad as the rep it's given, and we might be able to assume that the 'rule' has previously been enforced off-screen. If it only applies while on duty, and/or with a previously unknown race.

destro wrote: View Post
Poor Harry. Of course he would have to be the one to catch space herpes.
More proof of Rule # 3.
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Old June 30 2009, 01:30 AM   #1980
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Before we proceed I have a very important announcement to make. If you're not already sitting then now would be a good time to do so.

When I started this thread I honestly thought I was doing so in order to reacquaint myself with Voyager because I feared I might have been unfairly judging it based on watching the show as a teenager. While many of my fears of what I perceived to be wrong with the show were played out, I was willing to admit two things; the show has slightly better continuity than I remembered (although I still have serious issues with it) and the show is more of an ensemble show than I remembered it. At least it is so far, I still have two and a bit seasons to go.

However, I have been deceiving all of you, and I have even been deceiving myself. You see, I had no intention of being fair to Voyager as a show, this whole thread has been based around my need to bash Voyager, because I am a horrible villainous person with no soul. All those episodes I said I enjoyed? Lies, all lies. And the worst part is that I bought into my own deception, my villainy was so vile that I couldn't even admit it to myself because I didn't want to know what a horrible, horrible person I really am.

But all that came to an end this afternoon thanks to the truth being exposed to be by the brilliant musings of Anwar. His argument cut to the core of my being without even knowing me or reading much of this thread. Who can argue against such insightful comments as "once a hater always a hater" or the pinnacle of human debate which is "yes, actually, yes"? I tried to argue against it, but my rebuttals could never match such well thought out arguments.

So I am sorry to everybody who read this thread thinking that I was trying to be fair to the show, I can only ask for your forgiveness on this deception.


And if you believed anything I wrote above you're a fucking loon.


Demon Spawn (**)

Come on, that's a way better title than Course: Oblivion.

I somehow missed Demon when it first aired so when I saw this episode for the first time I thought it was quite good, but having seem Demon twice since then this episode just doesn't make sense. Where did the biomemetic Voyager come from? According to the timeline established in this episode they had under 13 days to build Voyager (and replicate Shmully somehow) and leave the demon planet, forgetting who they really are in the process. They also adapted to breath oxygen even though it was poisonous to them last time.

I like the idea of this episode, I like quirky episodes like this where everything is seen from a different angle than how we usually see things. But I think that the fatal mistake this episode makes is that events happening on this duplicate Voyager are more interesting than the normally static nature of the real Voyager. Tom and B'Elanna get married, a new baby is born, they devise a new method of propulsion, people actually die... The ending is a reset button of sorts and next week we'll go back to a Voyager where there is 9 main characters who will fail to grow as they did on the duplicate ship. We'll have to wait another year and a half before we see the real Tom and B'Elanna get married, and even then we wont actually see it.

Does anybody else find it ironic that duplicate Harry appears to be the last main character to die on the duplicate ship. Things really are different there.
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