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TrekToday http://www.trektoday.com/content Daily Star Trek news Sun, 02 Aug 2015 16:53:37 +0000 en-US hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=4.2.3 Retro Review: Learning Curve http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/retro-review-learning-curve/ http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/retro-review-learning-curve/#comments Fri, 31 Jul 2015 21:16:02 +0000 http://www.trektoday.com/content/?p=41256 Tuvok attempts to train four Maquis crewmembers who are having difficulty following Starfleet protocols.

Plot Summary: Lieutenant Dalby discovers a malfunctioning bio-neural gel pack and replaces it without getting authorization, which causes several systems ship-wide to stop working. Tuvok expresses concern to Janeway that Dalby and some other Maquis crewmembers are not trained or disciplined enough to work on a Starfleet vessel. Though Janeway is more worried about the possibility of multiple gel pack failures disabling Voyager’s systems, she recommends an on-the-job training course for the crewmembers having the greatest difficulties. Chakotay gives onetime Starfleet Academy instructor Tuvok a list of possible candidates, from which Tuvok selects four junior officers – impulsive Dalby, belligerent Henley, unfocused Chell, and bitter Gerron – who deeply resent being singled out for extra attention. The group complains when Tuvok insists that they remove all traces of their personal style from their professional demeanor and marches out after what they consider to be an unfair physical exercise. Neelix offers Tuvok some wisdom about plant stalks needing to be flexible, which Tuvok at first takes to mean that the young crewmembers are too rigid, then discovers that Neelix means to criticize himself and his teaching methods. He tries to get to know Dalby and realizes that some of the Maquis crewmembers suffered traumas that make it impossible for them to become contented, well-adjusted Starfleet officers overnight. Meanwhile, the Doctor discovers that Neelix’s attempt to make cheese has cultivated a bacteria that now infects the gel packs. The Doctor proposes raising the temperature to help the gel packs fight off the infection, but although the gel packs are saved, Tuvok and his unhappy team become trapped in a cargo bay where Gerron is injured. Dalby becomes irate when Tuvok orders him to get to safety with Henley and Chell, but when Tuvok himself violates procedure, risking his life to save Gerron, the Maquis officers are impressed and promise to work harder to obey the rules.

Analysis: I didn’t like “Learning Curve” when it first aired for its obnoxious attitude toward Maquis dissidents and indeed toward anyone who refused to assimilate entirely into Starfleet’s arbitrary regulations, which I thought at the time might just reflect my lack of understanding of how military protocols worked. But it rubs me the wrong way even more so now that we’ve seen some of the history of Vulcan intolerance in Enterprise, and now that we know the Maquis will be asked to give up their sense of belonging to their own cultures as well as their identities as members of an organization in conflict with Starfleet (the latter a demand that’s completely justified on a mission like Voyager’s, though I note that Worf was allowed to wear the accoutrements of a Klingon warrior on duty even when the Klingons were at war with the Federation). Of course it’s a problem that many of the Maquis have not had Starfleet training in teamwork, physical fitness, even self-protection, though I might note that Neelix and Kes haven’t either. It would seem both reasonable and fair for Tuvok to include them in a course to get underprepared crewmembers ready for life traveling through the Delta Quadrant, particularly since Kes had never left her village, let alone her homeworld, until just before Voyager arrived. The cheese incident that almost destroys the bio-neural gel packs is a far more heinous betrayal of safety protocols than the replacement of one of those gel packs, even if Dalby is rude when reprimanded while Neelix only stammers in embarrassment. And surely there are Starfleet crewmembers as well as Maquis who were unprepared to have a brief mission into the Badlands turn into a potentially lifelong journey? Couldn’t many of the junior officers use a refresher course in focus and teamwork? If Janeway and Chakotay’s goal is to get their two crews functioning as a single unit with the same ease with which Torres now works with Carey, they’d be well advised to include some Starfleet officers in the remedial class even just for show. Not so long ago, Tom Paris was a criminal and Torres was punching fellow officers, while now they’re fourth and fifth in the command chain; seems like a lot of people on that ship could use a bit of extra attention.

And although Tuvok may have been an Academy instructor for more than a decade, he seems like the wrong person to be leading an exercise in new-to-Starfleet teamwork. These angry, demoralized Maquis crewmembers need a counselor, not a disciplinarian; the morale officer might do them more good, and indeed does them more good when he lectures Tuvok, than a stern Vulcan whom they consider a traitor to their cause. I think it’s a mistake that we see the senior officers’ point of view rather than that of the recruits, since we don’t get to learn the positive independent-minded aspects of what Chakotay dismisses as “the Maquis way.” A strong left hook may get someone hauled before a disciplinary committee in Starfleet, but we’ve had such behavior by the Klingons rammed down our throats for years now as something we should admire, so it just doesn’t look particularly outrageous when a Maquis crewmember does precisely what a Klingon would do in a similar situation of being singled out for his temper. Apart from Dalby, who joined the Maquis because Cardassians brutalized his girlfriend, we never get to know the Maquis crewmembers, and the more Tuvok talks, the more arrogant he seems, like the obnoxious Vulcans of “Take Me Out to the Holosuite” rather than thoughtful, nuanced individuals like Spock and Sarek. Now that the US military and other such organizations have relaxed their rules about whether and when soldiers can wear yarmulkes, hijabs, and other items directly related to the practice of religion, I feel even more justified in my fury against Tuvok when he orders Gerron to take off his Bajoran earring – an accessory quite different from the headband that Tuvok forbids Henley to wear. The Bajoran earring is a symbol of faith. It’s also a mark of one’s family and social caste, two things that the young Gerron has lost being stranded 70,000 light years from home. Whether he had lost those already in a traumatic incident that led him to join the Maquis, as Dalby seems to believe, or whether he joined the Maquis out of sympathy for the settlers’ desire to protect their homes, like Kasidy Yates, Gerron is clearly clinging to this one meaningful relic of his former life, which Tuvok orders him to put away without any care for its significance.

Clearly, Tuvok is obsessed with the letter of the law rather than its spirit – he’s closer to being Javert from Les Miserables than was Sisko when Eddington mocked him with that sobriquet – but given the pettiness of the Vulcans we saw in many TNG and DS9 episodes, I gather we’re supposed to assume that it’s because Tuvok’s a Vulcan, for whom logic demands holding even to the most trivial of regulations. But I can’t understand why Chakotay agrees to let someone whom he thought served his own cause, then turned out to have been working behind his back all along, serve as corrections officer for other Maquis crewmembers. Chakotay’s facial tattoo would not be permitted even in the current US military, and I’d love to hear his response if Tuvok ordered him to remove it or cover it up. He’s usually a champion of diversity and broadmindedness, yet he seems amused at the thought of having four shipmates for whom he was once responsible, who are as troubled as they are troubling, put under Tuvok’s yoke. Of course ship-wide discipline is important in a crisis, as we see when it takes much of the crew working together to solve the problem with the gel packs, but a rigid dress code for people who will be working together for many years can hardly be the element that makes them see themselves as a team. It will be acknowledging, understanding, accepting, and taking advantage of their differences which will accomplish that. If the Starfleet uniform serves to bond Voyager’s crew in early days, it later serves to homogenize them; no wonder Sisko preferred spending his off-duty hours in African dress and Kira never stopped wearing her Bajoran earring even when in Starfleet uniform. “Learning Curve” fails in its effort to be “Lower Decks” because it fears to let us get to know and admire the quirks of the individual Maquis, erasing their distinct histories and grievances even as Janeway’s off playing traditional British governess in a traditional British novel knockoff. She needs to spend more time thinking about exactly which aspects of the Federation she plans to keep thriving on her ship as it creeps toward home.

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Star Trek: The Exhibition In Washington State http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/star-trek-the-exhibition-in-washington-state/ http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/star-trek-the-exhibition-in-washington-state/#comments Fri, 31 Jul 2015 19:00:37 +0000 http://www.trektoday.com/content/?p=41252 Star Trek: The Exhibition will be arriving at the Washington State Fair in September.

The Washington State Fair will take place September 11-27 in Puyallup.

Star Trek: The Exhibition, under license by CBS Consumer Products, will run for seventeen days and gives visitors the opportunity to enjoy an interactive, museum-style experience of one of the largest collections of authentic Star Trek artifacts and information ever put on public display. This is a separate ticketed exhibit, and requires Fair admission. Exhibit tickets can be purchased in advance for $6.50 until Sept 10 here, or $8 at the State Fair. Children five years and under are free in the exhibit with a paid adult. Online orders are subject to standard processing fees.

The Exhibition brings visitors into the Star Trek universe and allows them to connect with iconic Star Trek moments. Throughout this experience, visitors, especially younger visitors and youth, will be inspired and motivated to seek out more education, and perhaps ignite a passion for lifelong learning and careers in science and technology.

Star Trek fans and novices alike will have a first-hand interactive experience to explore the worlds, wisdom, science, stories, cultures, characters, fashions and fantasies of the Star Trek universe. In the States, and around the world, Star Trek has become a sub-culture for many, supported by countless fan conventions and fan gatherings where many regularly gather and role-play in their favorite Star Trek characters.

“Among the main attractions of The Exhibition is the opportunity to sit in the legendary Captain’s chair where Captain Kirk and subsequently Captain Picard took command of the U.S.S. Enterprise; the opportunity to pose in front of a replica of the U.S.S. Enterprise; and one-of-a-kind displays, interactive kiosks and rare photo opportunities.”

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August-September 2015 Trek Conventions And Appearances http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/august-september-2015-trek-conventions-and-appearances/ http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/august-september-2015-trek-conventions-and-appearances/#comments Fri, 31 Jul 2015 18:53:51 +0000 http://www.trektoday.com/content/?p=41248 There will be nineteen conventions, shows or appearances in August and September that will feature actors of interest to Star Trek fans.

This listing of conventions and shows features actors from all of the televised series and several of the Star Trek movies.

August begins with The Official Star Trek Convention will be held Aug. 6-9 at the Rio Suites Hotel in Las Vegas, Nevada. In attendance at The Official Star Trek Convention will be Marc Alaimo, Vaughn Armstrong, Richard Arnold, Rene Auberjonois, Robert Beltran, Casey Biggs, John Billingsley, Brannon Braga, Bobby Clark, Joan Collins, Jeffrey Combs, Denise Crosby, Olivia d’Abo, Michael Dante, James Darren, Roxanne Dawson, Nicole de Boer, John de Lancie, Elizabeth Dennehy (Commander Shelby), Chris Doohan, Michael Dorn, Doug Drexler, Aron Eisenberg, Terry Farrell, Jonathan Frakes, Bryan Fuller, Joseph Gatt, Max Grodenchik, Richard Herd, J.G. Hertzler, Jennifer Hetrick (Vash), Manu Intiraymi, Sherry Jackson, Salome Jens, Dominic Keating, Walter Koenig, Alice Krige, Cirroc Lofton, Don Marshall, Chase Masterson, Robert Duncan McNeill, Anthony Montgomery, Ronald B. Moore, Kate Mulgrew, Larry Nemecek, Adam Nimoy, Denise Okuda, Mike Okuda, Robert O’Reilly, Linda Park, Ethan Phillips, Robert Picardo, Andrew Robinson, Rod Roddenberry, David L. Ross (Lt. Galloway and Lt. Johnson), Saul Rubinek, Tim Russ, Jeri Ryan, Judson Scott (Joachim from The Wrath of Khan), William Shatner, Mark Allen Shepherd (Morn), William Morgan Sheppard, Armin Shimerman, Alexander Siddig, Marina Sirtis, Rick Sternbach, Sir Patrick Stewart, Kitty Swink, George Takei, Connor Trinneer, Karl Urban, Nana Visitor, Garrett Wang, and Michael Westmore.

Next up is Shore Leave, to be held Aug. 7-9 at the Baltimore Hunt Valley Inn in Hunt Valley, Maryland. In attendance at Shore Leave will be Daniel Davis (Professor James Moriarty).

The Steel City Con will be held Aug. 7-9 at the Monroeville Convention Center in Monroeville, Pennsylvania. In attendance at Steel City Con will be Nichelle Nichols.

The Dublin Comic Con will be held Aug. 8-9 at the Convention Centre Dublin in Dublin, Ireland. In attendance at Dublin Comic Con will be Gates McFadden.

The Windsor ComiCon will be held Aug. 15-16 at the Caesars Windsor in Windsor, Ontario, Canada. In attendance at Windsor ComiCon will be Marina Sirtis.

Crypticon Kansas City will take place Aug. 21-23 at the Howard Johnson Plaza in Kansas City, Missouri. In attendance at Crypticon Kansas City will be Sid Haig, Chris Sarandon, and Tony Todd.

Walker Stalker Con will be held Aug. 22-23 at the Westin Waterfront in Boston, Massachusetts. In attendance at Walker Stalker Con will be Denise Crosby.

The Central Coast Comic Con will take place Aug. 28-30 at the Ventura County Fairgrounds in Ventura, California. In attendance at Central Coast Comic Con will be Sid Haig (Lawgiver in Return of the Archons) and Deep Roy.

Wrapping up August will be the Bournemouth Film & Comic Con, to be held Aug. 29-30 at the Bournemouth International Centre in Bournemouth, England. In attendance at the Bournemouth Film & Comic Con will be Max Grodenchik.

September begins with Fan Expo Canada, which will be held Sept. 3-6 at the Metro Toronto Convention Centre in Toronto, Ontario, Canada. In attendance at Fan Expo Canada will be Jeffrey Combs, Malcolm McDowell, Jennifer Morrison, Kate Mulgrew, Ethan Phillips, Robert Picardo, and Jeri Ryan.

Dragon*Con will take place Sept. 4-7 at several hotels in Atlanta, Georgia. In attendance at Dragon*Con will be Terry Farrell, Jonathan Frakes, Gary Lockwood, and Paul McGillion.

Wizard World Comic Con San Jose will be held Sept. 4-6 at the San Jose Convention Center in San Jose, California. In attendance at Wizard World Comic Con San Jose will be Adrienne Barbeau.

The Alamo City Comic Con will be held Sept. 11-13 at the Henry B. Gonzalez Convention Center in San Antonio, Texas. In attendance at Alamo City Comic Con will be Olivia d’Abo and Ron Perlman.

The Wizard World Comic Con Pittsburgh will be held Sept. 11-13 at the David L. Lawrence Convention Center in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Appearing at Wizard World Comic Con Pittsburgh will be Colm Meaney and William Shatner.

RocCon will be held Sept. 11-13 at the Kodak Event Center in Rochester, New York. In attendance at RocCon will be Nichelle Nichols and Marina Sirtis.

Wizard World Comic Con Columbus will be held Sept. 18-20 at the Greater Columbus Convention Center in Columbus, Ohio. Appearing at Wizard World Comic Con Columbus will be Brent Spiner.

The Rose City Comic Con will be held Sept. 19-20 at the Oregon Convention Center in Portland, Oregon. In attendance at Rose City Comic Con will be Walter Koenig, Nichelle Nichols, and Wil Wheaton.

The Salt Lake Comic Con will be held Sept. 24-26 at the Salt Palace in Salt Lake City, Utah. Walter Koenig will be appearing at the Salt Lake Comic Con.

September wraps up with the London Comic Con, to be held Sept. 25-27 at the Western Fair District in London, Ontario, Canada. In attendance at the London Comic Con will be Nicole de Boer and Ron Perlman.

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Shatner To Pen Book On Nimoy http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/shatner-to-pen-book-on-nimoy/ http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/shatner-to-pen-book-on-nimoy/#comments Fri, 31 Jul 2015 18:45:58 +0000 http://www.trektoday.com/content/?p=41245 William Shatner is planning on writing a book about his friend Leonard Nimoy.

Shatner considered Nimoy to be a brother to him.

“I’m writing a book about Leonard,” said Shatner. “I had a brother, whose life arc was so much like mine that we understood each other completely. Our age, our birth, the same types of problems in our marriages – our careers arced in the same manner.

“We had a great deal in common, Leonard and I. And thusly we were able to understand each other. I’ve lost a dear friend.”

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Star Trek Beyond Building Continues http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/star-trek-beyond-building-continues/ http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/star-trek-beyond-building-continues/#comments Fri, 31 Jul 2015 18:42:43 +0000 http://www.trektoday.com/content/?p=41236 More photographs from the Star Trek Beyond set have emerged.

Five new photos show the progress made in building the set which began back in May.

STB-1

The first photo shows the bare bones of the set back in May.

STB-2

The second photo shows what appeared to be a building with some broken trees on it.

STB-3

In the third photo, it becomes clear that the second photo was not a building, but hills with broken trees. The plywood of the second photo has been covered with dirt.

STB-4

STB-5

In the last two photos, the “hills” set is being expanded.

Larger-sized photos are available at the referring site.

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Trinneer In Western Horror http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/trinneer-in-western-horror/ http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/trinneer-in-western-horror/#comments Thu, 30 Jul 2015 17:14:05 +0000 http://www.trektoday.com/content/?p=41232 Fans of Connor Trinneer will be able to see the actor in a western horror movie set to release on DVD and VOD beginning August 4.

The movie is called A Good Day To Die.

In A Good Day To Die, “Baron Emerson uses his vast wealth to travel the world and hunt. He does not hunt animals, he hunts warriors. The Baron arrives at the American frontier and is looking for his next prey. An outlaw gunslinger named Chamberlin who is in jail and set to be hanged. The Baron arranges for Chamberlin to be freed so that he can hunt him like an animal in a bloody game of life and death in the Wild West.”

Trinneer portrays the hunted Chamberlin, while Robert Koroluck is the hunter Baron Emerson. Others included in A Good Day To Die include Nadia Lanfranconi, Jay Kown, and Leia Perez.

A Good Day To Die was written and directed by Rene Perez.

The movie has already made its European debut, where it was released under the title Prey For Death.

For US fans, to pre-order A Good Day To Die, which sells for $8.46, head to the link located here.

 

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Beam Me Up Scotty Figurines http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/beam-me-up-scotty-figurines/ http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/beam-me-up-scotty-figurines/#comments Thu, 30 Jul 2015 17:10:46 +0000 http://www.trektoday.com/content/?p=41229 Two new original series figures feature Kirk and Spock in the process of “beaming up.”

The figures will be available from Funko beginning next month.

Each poseable figure is 3 3/4″ in height and features a beaming effect (the bottom part of each character shows this effect). “Captain James T. Kirk [and Spock have five] points of articulation and features unique accessories and the 1980s style card back design.”

The Beaming Kirk and Spock ReAction figures will ship next month. Each sells for $12.99 and can be pre-ordered here for Kirk, and here for Spock.

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UK Auction To Feature Spock Costume http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/uk-auction-to-feature-spock-costume/ http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/uk-auction-to-feature-spock-costume/#comments Thu, 30 Jul 2015 17:08:35 +0000 http://www.trektoday.com/content/?p=41226 TrekUKAuction073015

An auction to be held in the UK this autumn will feature a costume worn by Leonard Nimoy.

The Prop Store and Odeon Entertainment Memorabilia Live Auction will take place September 23.

The catalog for the auction isn’t available yet, but at least two Star Trek items will be auctioned.

A costume worn by Nimoy during the second season (blue shirt and black trousers) will be up for auction, and is expected to fetch up to £70,000.

Also in the auction will be a model starship used in The Next Generation and Deep Space Nine.

Other non-Trek items of interest include a Star Wars stormtrooper helmet, Arnold Schwarzenegger‘s jacket from Terminator 3, a Lord of the Rings Witch King’s dagger, and a set of claws worn by Hugh Jackman in X2:X-Men United.

In all, four-hundred-and-fifty items will be auctioned.

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Pine To Star In Wonder Woman http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/pine-to-star-in-wonder-woman/ http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/pine-to-star-in-wonder-woman/#comments Wed, 29 Jul 2015 17:57:20 +0000 http://www.trektoday.com/content/?p=41222 PineWonderWoman052815

Back in May, TrekToday reported that Chris Pine was in negotiations to star in Warner Bros. Wonder Woman; today comes word that Pine has signed on for the role.

Pine will be playing Steve Trevor, Diana Prince’s love interest.

In the Wonder Woman comics, Trevor “was an intelligence officer in the United States Army during World War II whose plane crashed on Paradise Island, the isolated homeland of the Amazons. He was nursed back to health by the Amazon princess Diana, who fell in love with him and followed him when he returned to the outside world. There she became Wonder Woman (and also his co-worker, Diana Prince).”

Pine’s deal reportedly includes sequel options.

Written by Jason Fuchs, Wonder Woman will be directed by Patty Jenkins. Pine will be starring with Gal Gadot, who will take on the role of Diana Prince.

Wonder Woman will be released June 23, 2017.

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Pegg Teases Elba Character http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/pegg-teases-elba-character/ http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/pegg-teases-elba-character/#comments Wed, 29 Jul 2015 17:54:46 +0000 http://www.trektoday.com/content/?p=41218 Elba072915

Simon Pegg spoke briefly about the character that Idris Elba will be playing in Star Trek Beyond.

The character that Elba will be playing will be unique, Pegg promised.

“It’s a really interesting, complex character,” said Pegg. “We shouldn’t expect to see anything like Benedict Cumberbatch‘s creepy genius Khan from Star Trek Into Darkness in Elba’s performance, however. His performance is all his own.”

There’s a good reason that Elba’s villain is different than Cumberbatch’s. “Only because it would be a retread,” said Pegg. “What we don’t want to do is have the same kind of villain with the same motivation.”

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Old June 24 2009, 01:05 PM   #31
Sci
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Re: Borg Theories

hyzmarca wrote: View Post
Any nanotech origin for the Borg comes pre-Jossed. The Borg got their nanotech from Species 149. Assuming that there numbering scheme makes any sense, that was early in their carreer but still well after they started doing their Borg thing.
According to Memory Alpha, they didn't get their nano technology from Species 149, they got their procedure for reviving dead drones using nanoprobles from them.

I prefer the gradual transhumanist explanation, because it's so believable. Start with one small neurological implant that becomes ubiquitous due to it's utility, perhaps a wireless DNI that allows one to operate a computer and access the internet with thought alone. From there, you start adding features and designing new implants. Practically everything that the Borg has is of serious utility value to an individual. most woundly want all the implants, but many would want at least one or two. The DNI is a no-brainer, and super strength is nice, too.

Now, the problem comes in which the DNI implant starts being used for P2P chatting rather than just as a fancy keyboard and moniter. At first its no problem, because the brains remain seperate. But firmware updates that allow more inttimate mind sharing are inevitable, untill you end up mini-collective clusters,
Fascinating drama you have there.

Jono wrote: View Post
Tachyon Shield wrote: View Post
I'm sorry but I don't want ANY link between Humans and the Borg when it comes to their origin. I just want the Borg to be completely separate.
Complete agree.

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Old June 24 2009, 01:25 PM   #32
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Re: Borg Theories

Ooo, btw, Sci, thanks for recommending the Destiny trilogy, very engrossing Just finished the second one last night.
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Old June 24 2009, 04:17 PM   #33
hyzmarca
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Re: Borg Theories

Sci wrote: View Post
hyzmarca wrote: View Post
Any nanotech origin for the Borg comes pre-Jossed. The Borg got their nanotech from Species 149. Assuming that there numbering scheme makes any sense, that was early in their carreer but still well after they started doing their Borg thing.
According to Memory Alpha, they didn't get their nano technology from Species 149, they got their procedure for reviving dead drones using nanoprobles from them.

I prefer the gradual transhumanist explanation, because it's so believable. Start with one small neurological implant that becomes ubiquitous due to it's utility, perhaps a wireless DNI that allows one to operate a computer and access the internet with thought alone. From there, you start adding features and designing new implants. Practically everything that the Borg has is of serious utility value to an individual. most woundly want all the implants, but many would want at least one or two. The DNI is a no-brainer, and super strength is nice, too.

Now, the problem comes in which the DNI implant starts being used for P2P chatting rather than just as a fancy keyboard and moniter. At first its no problem, because the brains remain seperate. But firmware updates that allow more inttimate mind sharing are inevitable, untill you end up mini-collective clusters,
Fascinating drama you have there.
Origin stories don't need drama, they need plausibility. How did humanity come into being? Evolution via natural selection over millions of years. Klingons? Same thing. Vulcans? Same thing.

Besides, it's very frightening and very poignant to understand how minor sociological and technological changes over time can end up transforming a race much like us into something that is totally alien in its mindset. If the Borg are victims of disaster, that takes something away from them. If they are the product of the same sociological forces that shape and mold us, forces and are, in and of themselves, good, then we can see ourselves in them. And more importantly, they serve as body horror on a societal level, a dire warning of what our grandchildren's grandchildren may become as our society progresses.

Really, Evil Being X transforming an entire race into drones is cliche and it's safe. Space Hitler is always a great villain, not just because one can hate him without feeling bad about it, but because he assures us that it really can't happen here.

But a series of decisions, a series of transformations, each of which were individually good and right and widely accepted, producing something so horrible, that at least makes you think, which Star Trek is supposed to do. Everyone knows that the road to hell is paved with good intentions, but sometimes it is paved by good actions, too. We cannot know how our decisions today will impact the society of a thousand years from now. And it's hard to come up with something far more frightening than that. It's not just that the Borg are genocidal conquerors from our point of view, but that we may very well become like them in a few thousand years time.

Last edited by hyzmarca; June 24 2009 at 06:14 PM.
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Old June 24 2009, 04:56 PM   #34
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Re: Borg Theories

Sci wrote: View Post
Well, I don't think I have to forgive the novels for going along a plot line that I don't agree with, I know they aren't written just for me. Have to say in the ranking of my problems with the novels, that would be on the lower side of things. The fact I skipped around 1/3 of the series due to a certain plot line would be the main reason I only rate it as an average series.

hyzmarca wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post

I prefer the gradual transhumanist explanation, because it's so believable. Start with one small neurological implant that becomes ubiquitous due to it's utility, perhaps a wireless DNI that allows one to operate a computer and access the internet with thought alone. From there, you start adding features and designing new implants. Practically everything that the Borg has is of serious utility value to an individual. most woundly want all the implants, but many would want at least one or two. The DNI is a no-brainer, and super strength is nice, too.

Now, the problem comes in which the DNI implant starts being used for P2P chatting rather than just as a fancy keyboard and moniter. At first its no problem, because the brains remain seperate. But firmware updates that allow more inttimate mind sharing are inevitable, untill you end up mini-collective clusters,
Fascinating drama you have there.
Origin stories don't need drama, they need plausibility. How did humanity come into being? Evolution via natural selection over millions of years. Klings? Same thing. Vulcans? Same thing.

Besides, it's very frightening and very poignant to understand how minor sociological and technological changes over time can end up transforming a race much like us into something that is totally alien in its mindset. If the Borg are victims of disaaster, that takes something away from them. If they are the product of the same sociological forces that shape and mold us, forces and are, in and of themselves, good, then we can see ourselves in them. And more importantly, they serve as body horror on a societal level, a dire warning of what our grandchildren's grandchildren may become as our society progresses.

Really, Evil Being X transforming an entire race into drones is cliche and it's safe. Space Hitler is always a great villain, not just because one can hate him without feeling bad about it, but because he assured us that it really can't happen here.

But a series of decisions, a series of transformation, each of which were individually good and right and widely accepted, producing something so horrible, that at least makes you think, which Star Trek is supposed to do. Everyone knows that the road to hell is paved with good intentions, but sometimes it is paved by good actions, too. We cannot know how our decisions today will impact the society of a thousand years from now. And it's hard to come up with something far more frightening than that. It's not just that the Borg are genocidal conquerors from our point of view, but that we may very well become like them in a few thousand years time.
That is pretty much how I like to view the origin of the Borg.
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Old June 24 2009, 05:29 PM   #35
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Re: Borg Theories

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Any nanotech origin for the Borg comes pre-Jossed. The Borg got their nanotech from Species 149. Assuming that there numbering scheme makes any sense, that was early in their carreer but still well after they started doing their Borg thing.
According to Memory Alpha, they didn't get their nano technology from Species 149, they got their procedure for reviving dead drones using nanoprobles from them.

I prefer the gradual transhumanist explanation, because it's so believable. Start with one small neurological implant that becomes ubiquitous due to it's utility, perhaps a wireless DNI that allows one to operate a computer and access the internet with thought alone. From there, you start adding features and designing new implants. Practically everything that the Borg has is of serious utility value to an individual. most woundly want all the implants, but many would want at least one or two. The DNI is a no-brainer, and super strength is nice, too.

Now, the problem comes in which the DNI implant starts being used for P2P chatting rather than just as a fancy keyboard and moniter. At first its no problem, because the brains remain seperate. But firmware updates that allow more inttimate mind sharing are inevitable, untill you end up mini-collective clusters,
Fascinating drama you have there.
Origin stories don't need drama, they need plausibility.
They need both. There's no point in telling a plausible but uncompelling story.

Besides, it's very frightening and very poignant to understand how minor sociological and technological changes over time can end up transforming a race much like us into something that is totally alien in its mindset.
It can be, if you have a good writer. But so can telling the story about how a group of people facing imminent death choose to react to their own mortality. By making the origin of the Borg a question of individual conscience, the themes of life, death, and how we create meaning in our lives is brought into much starker focus.

If the Borg are victims of disaaster, that takes something away from them. If they are the product of the same sociological forces that shape and mold us, forces and are, in and of themselves, good, then we can see ourselves in them. And more importantly, they serve as body horror on a societal level, a dire warning of what our grandchildren's grandchildren may become as our society progresses.
In other words, a boring and predictable allegory unless it's in the hands of a particularly skilled writer. We've heard it all before -- "Be careful how we adapt new technologies or they'll adapt us!"

Really, Evil Being X transforming an entire race into drones is cliche and it's safe. Space Hitler is always a great villain, not just because one can hate him without feeling bad about it, but because he assured us that it really can't happen here.
Luckily, that is by no means what happens in Destiny.
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Old June 24 2009, 05:41 PM   #36
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Re: Borg Theories

hyzmarca wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
hyzmarca wrote: View Post
Any nanotech origin for the Borg comes pre-Jossed. The Borg got their nanotech from Species 149. Assuming that there numbering scheme makes any sense, that was early in their carreer but still well after they started doing their Borg thing.
According to Memory Alpha, they didn't get their nano technology from Species 149, they got their procedure for reviving dead drones using nanoprobles from them.

I prefer the gradual transhumanist explanation, because it's so believable. Start with one small neurological implant that becomes ubiquitous due to it's utility, perhaps a wireless DNI that allows one to operate a computer and access the internet with thought alone. From there, you start adding features and designing new implants. Practically everything that the Borg has is of serious utility value to an individual. most woundly want all the implants, but many would want at least one or two. The DNI is a no-brainer, and super strength is nice, too.

Now, the problem comes in which the DNI implant starts being used for P2P chatting rather than just as a fancy keyboard and moniter. At first its no problem, because the brains remain seperate. But firmware updates that allow more inttimate mind sharing are inevitable, untill you end up mini-collective clusters,
Fascinating drama you have there.
Origin stories don't need drama, they need plausibility. How did humanity come into being? Evolution via natural selection over millions of years. Klings? Same thing. Vulcans? Same thing.

Besides, it's very frightening and very poignant to understand how minor sociological and technological changes over time can end up transforming a race much like us into something that is totally alien in its mindset. If the Borg are victims of disaaster, that takes something away from them. If they are the product of the same sociological forces that shape and mold us, forces and are, in and of themselves, good, then we can see ourselves in them. And more importantly, they serve as body horror on a societal level, a dire warning of what our grandchildren's grandchildren may become as our society progresses.

Really, Evil Being X transforming an entire race into drones is cliche and it's safe. Space Hitler is always a great villain, not just because one can hate him without feeling bad about it, but because he assured us that it really can't happen here.

But a series of decisions, a series of transformation, each of which were individually good and right and widely accepted, producing something so horrible, that at least makes you think, which Star Trek is supposed to do. Everyone knows that the road to hell is paved with good intentions, but sometimes it is paved by good actions, too. We cannot know how our decisions today will impact the society of a thousand years from now. And it's hard to come up with something far more frightening than that. It's not just that the Borg are genocidal conquerors from our point of view, but that we may very well become like them in a few thousand years time.
Personally, I like this a lot better than the origin in Destiny. It's far more interesting. The origin in Destiny is more like the origin of a supervillain. Whereas this is more like actual hard science fiction.

Not that I blame Mack. Making the Borg interesting, in the confines of continuity, is a quixotic quest.
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Old June 24 2009, 06:09 PM   #37
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Re: Borg Theories

Sci wrote: View Post
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Fascinating drama you have there.
Origin stories don't need drama, they need plausibility.
They need both. There's no point in telling a plausible but uncompelling story.
Real life doesn't work like a TV show, that origin idea is good because it's so plausible. It doesn't need drama because the more fantastical and contrived a situation is, the less realism it has.
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Old June 24 2009, 06:38 PM   #38
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Re: Borg Theories

Da'an wrote: View Post
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hyzmarca wrote: View Post

Origin stories don't need drama, they need plausibility.
They need both. There's no point in telling a plausible but uncompelling story.
Real life doesn't work like a TV show, that origin idea is good because it's so plausible.
Of course it doesn't.

But Star Trek is not real life, nor has it ever been particularly Realistic/Naturalistic. Star Trek, at its best, is a well-written Melodrama. And there's nothing wrong with that or dramatically inferior about that; Realism/Naturalism is not inherently superior to Melodrama.

But Trek's first obligation is to tell a good story, not to end up sounding like a newspaper article.

ETA:

Myasishchev wrote: View Post
Personally, I like this a lot better than the origin in Destiny. It's far more interesting. The origin in Destiny is more like the origin of a supervillain.
I don't think that's an accurate characterization. It's not the origin of a supervillain so much as it is an examination of how existential angst can mutate into pure nihilism because of our choices. There's a reason the Borg were born in the unforgiving winter of an arctic circle -- it's about the loneliness of facing your own imminent death and how you choose to react to it.

Do you accept that all things, even yourself, must come to an end? Or do you cling to life against all else, putting aside questions of morality or honesty or decency or compassion? Do you recognize that it is better to die alone but with integrity, or do you choose to victimize others in an attempt to cling to life and avoid the loneliness that results from that choice?

For my money, that's far more meaningful than yet another tired allegory about the dangers of society abusing technology that I've seen five million versions of.
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Old June 24 2009, 06:59 PM   #39
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Re: Borg Theories

Sci wrote: View Post
If the Borg are victims of disaaster, that takes something away from them. If they are the product of the same sociological forces that shape and mold us, forces and are, in and of themselves, good, then we can see ourselves in them. And more importantly, they serve as body horror on a societal level, a dire warning of what our grandchildren's grandchildren may become as our society progresses.
In other words, a boring and predictable allegory unless it's in the hands of a particularly skilled writer. We've heard it all before -- "Be careful how we adapt new technologies or they'll adapt us!"
Then you're missing my point. I was trying to say "our society will change, and what it will become will most likely shock and horrify us, just as the society of today is likely to shock and horrify someone from the distant past. Our children will no more share our sensibilities than we share those of our parents, and their children will no more share their sensibilities than they share ours. Advances in technology only accelerate the rate of social change."

The Borg aren't wrong, they aren't evil, they're merely a different perspective, one that is antithetical to ours. They chose this perspective for themselves through centuries of social evolution. It isn't that their technology changed them, quite the opposite. They changed the way they used their technology as their society began placing less and less value on individuality and more on social harmony, knowledge sharing, and distributed problem solving, to the point that individuality just fell by the wayside.

It's no different from the ancient ancestor species of the Great Apes putting more emphasis on walking than on climbing through trees and gradually losing its tail.

Do you think that an fifteen million year old Hylobatidae would recognize humans as being related to it. Do you think it would believe that we strange furless tailless creatures are its n-th generation descendants? Of course not.

A man plucked out of time from the American South just a fifty years ago would not be comfortable living in a world in which Whites and Coloreds are allowed to use the same water fountain. That certainly doesn't make us wrong for permitting it any more than we are wrong for not having tails or for walking upright. But it does make us alien. We are ever so slightly alien to the man who grew up in a casually racist society. We are extremely alien to our ancient Lesser Ape ancestor who probably cannot even comprehend being such as ourselves.

Huge changes can take place in short time, and the more time passes the more alien a society becomes relative to a member of that society plucked out of time. The Borg aren't wrong, they're just alien, alien to us, and alien to the race that they once were.

Our n-th generation descendants will be just as alien to us as the Borg are and their n-th generation descendants will be just as alien to them. That cannot be prevented, it's just the way of things. The best, the very best we can do, is lay down a foundation of knowledge and of basic morality and hope our children maintain it and use it well, and pass it on to their children.

They'll inevitably change this foundation that we teach them and add to it, of course, and they'll do so in ways that we cannot predict long after we are gone. We can expect nothing less of them, it would be wrong of them to stagnate by clinging to our beliefs religiously, just as it would be wrong for us to cling to racism just because our recent ancestors believed in it.

But knowing this makes what they will become no less alien, and what values they may choose for themselves no less potentially horrific.

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They need both. There's no point in telling a plausible but uncompelling story.
Real life doesn't work like a TV show, that origin idea is good because it's so plausible.
Of course it doesn't.

But Star Trek is not real life, nor has it ever been particularly Realistic/Naturalistic. Star Trek, at its best, is a well-written Melodrama. And there's nothing wrong with that or dramatically inferior about that; Realism/Naturalism is not inherently superior to Melodrama.

But Trek's first obligation is to tell a good story, not to end up sounding like a newspaper article.
Unless Star Trek has reconnected All Good Things so that life on Earth was created by giant robots from the future fighting a war instead of appearing spontaneously from primordial ooze, it's difficult to complain. Genetic seeding and Preservers aside, practically every race in Star Trek has the generic "evolved naturally" origin.

If "evolved naturally" isn't dramatic, why is it that they can get away with having this plain undramatic origins but yet the Borg, in your opinion, cannot?

I'm pretty sure that I can guess at this one, because they never spend an entire episode just sitting around and watching primordial ooze bubble or lesser apes crawling along the ground. Because billions of years of natural evolution isn't worth dedicating an entire episode to, or an entire book.

And if the origin I gave were canon, they'd also not dedicate an entire episode to it. At best, they'd give a few lines of dialog and maybe thirty seconds of CGI. It isn't something sufficiently dramatic to carry a whole episode or a whole movie or a whole book, but neither is natural selection as proposed by Darwin. Both, however, a worthy of fifteen seconds or expository dialog, and put the proper context on things.

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Old June 24 2009, 09:33 PM   #40
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Re: Borg Theories

hyzmarca wrote: View Post
If "evolved naturally" isn't dramatic, why is it that they can get away with having this plain undramatic origins but yet the Borg, in your opinion, cannot?

I'm pretty sure that I can guess at this one, because they never spend an entire episode just sitting around and watching primordial ooze bubble or lesser apes crawling along the ground. Because billions of years of natural evolution isn't worth dedicating an entire episode to, or an entire book.
I apologise in advance for what will probably be a very poorly articulated argument.

I would have thought the nature of the Borg is what would dramatically prevent them from just being another 'naturally' evolved race. We can easily imagine a race like the Klingons (aggresive, war mongering) or say the Cardassians (racist, smug, ruthless) since these are things that we can easily see in ourselves (a naturally evolved race), so a radial origin story isn't required.

The Borg on the other hand are much more...primal force. It's so far out of what most of us can percieve as happening to any species like us naturally. The total surrender of individuality, the enslavement to a singular will, completely alien for most of us, to a force that has a singular motivation that most of us would neve conciously consider.

Again, that's probably not really described well what I'm trying to explain here, but hopefully something will sink in there....
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Old June 24 2009, 10:19 PM   #41
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Re: Borg Theories

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Then you're missing my point. I was trying to say "our society will change, and what it will become will most likely shock and horrify us, just as the society of today is likely to shock and horrify someone from the distant past. Our children will no more share our sensibilities than we share those of our parents, and their children will no more share their sensibilities than they share ours. Advances in technology only accelerate the rate of social change."
No, I understood it, I just felt it made for a bad story.

The Borg aren't wrong, they aren't evil, they're merely a different perspective, one that is antithetical to ours.
Um, no. They are wrong. They are evil. They're the very definition of an aggressive, expansionist, megalomaniacal intelligence.

As I and others argued in the thread "The Borg, a defence:"

Their entire "culture," such as it is, is built around violating the rights of sentient entities, engaging in the crime of aggressive war, conquest, and the invasion and subjugation of others' minds. Their entire goal in life is to gain power over everyone else rather than respect anyone's rights.... If anything, the Borg are more authority-driven than any other culture we've encountered, because they cannot abide the idea of any species not under their control exists; everything either has to be assimilated or exterminated to their mind. They're the most megalomaniacal, power-hungry force in the entire Trekverse.... That emergent consciousness [the Collective] tends to force itself upon others, violating their minds and enslaving people without their consent. It's the single most authority-driven, slavery-driven culture in the entire Trekverse.

The Borg aren't wrong, they're just alien, alien to us, and alien to the race that they once were.
That would be true if they were simply a society that had renounced the concept of individuality for itself. They are not. They are a society that has renounced the concept of individuality for itself... and which imposes that choice upon unwilling foreign cultures. This makes them more than just "alien" or "different." It makes them actively hostile and immoral, violators of the rights of other cultures to self-determination.

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Da'an wrote: View Post
Real life doesn't work like a TV show, that origin idea is good because it's so plausible.
Of course it doesn't.

But Star Trek is not real life, nor has it ever been particularly Realistic/Naturalistic. Star Trek, at its best, is a well-written Melodrama. And there's nothing wrong with that or dramatically inferior about that; Realism/Naturalism is not inherently superior to Melodrama.

But Trek's first obligation is to tell a good story, not to end up sounding like a newspaper article.
Unless Star Trek has reconnected All Good Things so that life on Earth was created by giant robots from the future fighting a war instead of appearing spontaneously from primordial ooze, it's difficult to complain. Genetic seeding and Preservers aside, practically every race in Star Trek has the generic "evolved naturally" origin.
Because Star Trek has only needed the evolution of lifeforms to tell a story twice. And both times, it turns out that evolution in the Trekverse is a bit different than it is in real life -- the ancient Progenitors seeding humanoid life in "The Chase," and Humans evolving into salamanders in "Threshold."

I would certainly hope that if the story of the Borg were ever canonically told, more effort would be put forth to it than was put forth in "Threshold."

If "evolved naturally" isn't dramatic, why is it that they can get away with having this plain undramatic origins but yet the Borg, in your opinion, cannot?
Because no one's telling a story about how Cardassians came into being, or how Bajorans came into being. But if you're doing an origin story, you should make it more than just a textbook.

And if the origin I gave were canon, they'd also not dedicate an entire episode to it. At best, they'd give a few lines of dialog and maybe thirty seconds of CGI. It isn't something sufficiently dramatic to carry a whole episode or a whole movie or a whole book, but neither is natural selection as proposed by Darwin. Both, however, a worthy of fifteen seconds or expository dialog, and put the proper context on things.
Fair enough as fifteen seconds of exposition. But the Borg deserve an actual origin story, not an origin exposition dump. The very fact of how different they are from any biological species demands a story to itself.
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Old June 24 2009, 10:33 PM   #42
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Re: Borg Theories

Sci wrote: View Post
The Borg aren't wrong, they aren't evil, they're merely a different perspective, one that is antithetical to ours.
Um, no. They are wrong. They are evil. They're the very definition of an aggressive, expansionist, megalomaniacal intelligence.

As I and others argued in the thread "The Borg, a defence:"
You are assuming that aggressive expansion has negative moral value. This may not be the case. Morality is a matter of perspective. From the Borg perspective, their actions have positive moral value. It is unfortunate that their values are incompatible with ours, but this does not make them evil any more than being individuals makes us evil.

Because Star Trek has only needed the evolution of lifeforms to tell a story twice. And both times, it turns out that evolution in the Trekverse is a bit different than it is in real life -- the ancient Progenitors seeding humanoid life in "The Chase," and Humans evolving into salamanders in "Threshold."
Funny enough, Threshold was actually realistic, super-fast single-generation adaptation notwithstanding.
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Old June 24 2009, 10:52 PM   #43
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Re: Borg Theories

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The Borg aren't wrong, they aren't evil, they're merely a different perspective, one that is antithetical to ours.
Um, no. They are wrong. They are evil. They're the very definition of an aggressive, expansionist, megalomaniacal intelligence.

As I and others argued in the thread "The Borg, a defence:"
You are assuming that aggressive expansion has negative moral value.
Yes. I am arguing from the premise that all cultures have a right to self-determination and that aggression, conquest, and enslavement are immoral.

This may not be the case.
You be sure to tell that to the victims of the Third Reich.

Morality is a matter of perspective.
In many areas, yes. In the area of the right of cultures to self-determination? No. That is a natural right, and it is universal.

From the Borg perspective, their actions have positive moral value.
No they don't. The Borg simply do not care about morality one way or the other. The Borg Collective is sociopathic.

It is unfortunate that their values are incompatible with ours, but this does not make them evil any more than being individuals makes us evil.
I don't consider the fact that they lack individuality to be the thing that makes them evil. The Bynars aren't what we would call individuals, but they're not in any sense evil. I consider the fact that they invade and enslave others to their way of life to be the thing that makes them evil.

And, yes, enslaving foreign cultures is immoral. Period. That's a matter of fact, not of debate.

Because Star Trek has only needed the evolution of lifeforms to tell a story twice. And both times, it turns out that evolution in the Trekverse is a bit different than it is in real life -- the ancient Progenitors seeding humanoid life in "The Chase," and Humans evolving into salamanders in "Threshold."
Funny enough, Threshold was actually realistic, super-fast single-generation adaptation notwithstanding.
"Threshold" was not the least bit Realistic. Evolution does not have a set "path" that one can fast-forward an organism towards, as "Threshold" implies. Evolution is simply the emergence of species-wide traits that developed randomly and then spread to subsequent generations then they turn out to have been beneficial to survival and reproduction.
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Old June 24 2009, 10:59 PM   #44
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Re: Borg Theories

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Um, no. They are wrong. They are evil. They're the very definition of an aggressive, expansionist, megalomaniacal intelligence.

As I and others argued in the thread "The Borg, a defence:"
You are assuming that aggressive expansion has negative moral value.
Yes. I am arguing from the premise that all cultures have a right to self-determination and that aggression, conquest, and enslavement are immoral.
Since you are arguing from that premise, I must ask you to prove that it is correct.
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Old June 24 2009, 11:05 PM   #45
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Re: Borg Theories

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You are assuming that aggressive expansion has negative moral value.
Yes. I am arguing from the premise that all cultures have a right to self-determination and that aggression, conquest, and enslavement are immoral.
Since you are arguing from that premise, I must ask you to prove that it is correct.


Ask the victims of the Nazi invasions of Poland and France. I'm sure they'll be able to tell you.
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