Captain America... Spoilers

[Hermiod]

^As I said, it's my view that the iconic characters are iconic because of the size of the audience when they were created. The comic book audience is much smaller now so I see the iconic characters being created in video games and movies instead.

[CaptainCanada]

That would depend on what you mean by iconic. Until the recent film, most people didn't really know who Iron Man was, for example.

[Hermiod]

CaptainCanada wrote:

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That would depend on what you mean by iconic. Until the recent film, most people didn't really know who Iron Man was, for example.

I would say Spider-Man, Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, the Hulk and maybe a few others are iconic. The others, not so much. I think Thor, for example, is going to require some explaining nearer the time.

I'm not sure I'd actually put Cap on that list.

[CaptainCanada]

Hermiod wrote:

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I'm not sure I'd actually put Cap on that list.

Cap is definitely iconic; people know the look and have a concept of what "Captain America" is, though this is actually somewhat problematic when selling the character/film (particularly outside the US), since perceptions of Cap are heavily linked to how you perceive America. The general public's image of Cap is a guy obnoxiously chanting "U-S-A!" and waving a "Four More Years of Bush" sign.

[Mr Light]

There's only so many archetypes you can toss into a comic book without being completely repetitive. They pretty much used them all up in the 1960s. ... As for Bagley, I just read a Newsarama article and it sounds like he drew some Spidey pages for this "Requiem" thing a year or two ago before his exclusivity ran up because Bendis said they've been sitting on these pages forever.

[Nick Ryder]

Yeah Thor MIGHT be a bit of an odd one because he's not your straightforward "superhero". I know my mom remembers the old Thor TV show (I think from the 70s) (She had a thing for blondes!) but I don't know how many 'non-comics-fans' will really KNOW him. Iron Man was like that too, every Marvel/Comics fan knew him but the "audience at large" was kind of clueless on him, until the movie... NOW he's mega-badass.

What I sort of think Marvel needs to do more of is do short but sweet "intro to this character" type things on TV, like a made for TV special. Not a movie mind you, but a sort of documentary about. Introduce people to some of the lore behind the character. And then toward the end talk about the new movie. But make it more about the character. THEN make damn sure they sell the TPBs of some of the more "iconic" stories in every place that sells books. There's no excuse why a Marvel Masterworks type collection could NOT be sold at every store. Or even a non-movie tie in "Special" comic. The more people MIGHT know about the characters, the more they'll appreciate the movie.

And I always thought they should have guys in costume going to every theater or big event handing out small "ashcan" sized comics to everyone. They need to learn the finer points of guerilla marketing. Granted early buzz will sell tickets and if it's a GOOD movie, then the reviews and buzz from that alone will make it a success, but you still need to get people really interested and y'know what... maybe actually get people into the comics shops

[coolghoul]

Please don't hit me when I say this - but I don't like going to comics shops. The one time that I have been there in a recent year, the staff were friendly but I get a little intimidated by the sight of nothing but comics all over. It makes me think that people need to be hard-core comics collectors (who can correct people like Thrall did earlier, about what exactly happened during a particular run and who were the people writing it during that time and what the reasons were) rather than people like me who has *gaps* all over and has no discernment (except for sticking to DC and Marvel mostly) in the stuff that I read except for it being available to me.

I much more prefer it when comics were available at the magazine sections of neighborhood grocery chains. They are completely out of comics now. Walmart doesn't have comics in their shops either. The big book chains do have lots of trades but I don't see individual comics (floppies) there. The grocery chains used to have it in the 90s and then something pushed it out (low sales?). I remember Spider-man and several Clone related floppies at the local grocery thing. That's where you get the kids and the young parents interested...

Anyway, that's my view...

[Nick Ryder]

Completely agree with you there. With an average price tag between 2.99 - 3.99 for a montly comic, they're now out of the "mommy buy me this!" range. Secondly, by not having them in more places, they're limiting their readership. I know they're kind of trying to compensate by doing the Online Comics thing, but that's not the same as picking up a stack of comics at the local drug store or Wal-Mart/Target/K-Mart/grocery store. I suppose they do SORTA do that with those "marvel adventures" magazine style comics that are sorta all ages, which aren't horrible, but not the regular monthly comics that "matter".

Civil War really changed Marvel for the worst, Marvel has actually gotten almost MORE depressing and screwed up.

I recall a line that Superman uttered in the JLA/Avengers crossover from a few years back - "Your own world be may a sorry, disgraceful shambles, but you're not going to bring your madness to ours as well."

Basically with the DC heroes going "what a mess! How did they let it get this bad?" and then the Marvel heroes going "They're practically idolized here!"

I mean, when they killed Cap it was like, they killed their "heart" or something. I mean, Cap is, was and always will be a hero. And they go and make him some kind of rebel? I dunno... JoeQ really has made a joke of the Marvel Universe. He's sucked it into the darkenss. Hell he fucked up Spider-Man and had the WORST idea ever, so bad that NO ONE WANTED TO DO IT, so he had to do the art himself. Why? He'll say it was because it was so important. I think it was because no one wanted to be the devil. And ol' JoeyQ put his horns and hooves on and went to the drawing board.

Who put that dickhead in charge anyway? Bring back Tom DeFalco! Bring back Bob Haras even! Hell I'll even settle for that ego maniac Jim Shooter!

[RJDiogenes]

^^ Eh, he's just in tune with the times. Today's audience sucks down that 'darker and grittier' bullshit like beer. nuBSG, nuTrek (even real Trek was doing it with the Borg), all the rape and death at DC; even good stuff like Firefly and Lost have fallen into the trap sometimes. And then you've got mainstream stuff like The Shield, Rescue Me, torture porn, et cetera, ad infinitum. It's the culture. Crap like "Civil War" and "Dark Reign" are just another part of the parody.

coolghoul wrote:

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The big book chains do have lots of trades but I don't see individual comics (floppies) there.

The Borders that I go to has a Comic rack with monthlies, and I think there's a Spider-Man magazine that is sold in the magazine section. But regular comics are too overpriced. They should go back to cheap paper and four colors. The glossy paper just makes them look, ironically, cheap and plastic anyway.

[DarKush]

I used to love getting comics from Wal-Mart. While I don't mind comic book stores-the staffs are usually friendly, the selections are great, and they have a lot of neat toys, figurines, etc., it can be a bit daunting going in there an seeing so many different types of books. I do think the price of comics and their overall limited accessibility has hurt the market. I don't know if TPB are the way to go. There are good and bad points about them. They are durable and you get the story, hopefully, in just one volume. But at the same time, the pricing can be a bit much, esp. if the story isn't that good. It seemed like back in the day, only the important stories went the TPB route. Now trades are used for every storyline, no matter how consequential.

[Mr Light]

The Borders I go to has a tall four sided column filled with comic books. It's in the magazine section and not with the trades. ... As for Marvel's mistakes, it's worth pointing they consistently and considerably out-sell DC. I tend to prefer DC myself but in the past year I've been getting into Marvel books again.

[the Dagman]

Mr Light wrote:

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... As for Marvel's mistakes, it's worth pointing they consistently and considerably out-sell DC.

So? And American Idol is the number 1 tv show in the country as well. I still don't like and refuse to watch that shit. Just because something outsells another product doesn't make that first product better than everything else. What Marvel really has working in their favor is that they aren't part of a larger mega-corporation that is focused on making the bulk of their money from their other ventures.

[Nick Ryder]

I mean, yeah the stories are rather deep and they engross you, but I'm so tired of them doing all these drastic "status quo changing" storylines at least once or twice a year! I mean c'mon... we just had the status quo changed with Civil War, then it was changed again during Secret Invasion and then it was changed AGAIN with Dark Reign. Like for God's sake... just let the MU live with the status quo for a little while!

I have to admit, I'm happy that Cap's return took 2 years and not 2 months! At least it gave us some new stories with a new Cap and an MU that sort of was forced to realize just how much they needed and respected Cap.

[Mr Light]

^^ You forgot Avengers Disassembled, House of M, and World War Hulk

[Welshie]

FPAlpha wrote:

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What i always wondered is why do "modern" writers seem incapable of creating new, equally popular characters?

Spiderman, Cap America, Iron Man, Hulk, Thor etc.. all created in the Stan Lee era.

I don't think we have heroes created in our time (90s and 00s) that equal their popularity and pop culture importance.

Why is that? Are we not giving them a proper chance to become as established? Are they not iconic enough? Or are they just not that interesting to begin with..

Because for the most part, the idea of some guy in tights running around fighting Space Nazis got old. At the moment, there's a resurgence in popularity due to the genre being pretty much tailor-made to turn into action movies (a long time fave of American moviegoers), but when that well runs dry, men-in-tights stories will fade into obscurity.

There are plenty of interesting and well-written comic book characters out there created in the past 15 or 20 years, it's just that the style and stories being told have changed... check out stuff like Sandman or various other Vertigo books for in-depth engaging characterization (and some damn good stories). Indie books and European comics (which managed to avoid most of the superhero genre) are also well worth a look.