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Old June 17 2009, 07:01 PM   #76
the Dagman
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Re: Captain America... Spoilers

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Mr Light wrote: View Post
So he literally did die then and went to the afterlife, so they'll have to magically/mystically ressurect him? I think I would have preferred a faked death / body swap bit. I'm not crazy when a non-magical character has a huge life altering magical event happen to him *coughs*One More Day*coughs*
They talk about Hercules being Drunk all the time while fighting super villains, but you know Thor is just as bad. that's not an archaic Scandinavian accent: He's slurring his words.

Back in Avengers Annual 16(ish?) they went to hell and fought a bunch of dead super villains, including Norman Osborn.

These things happen.

besides, what if a person can have more than one soul? or it cautiously ejection in parts in case there is some unforeseen resurrection? Or they can grow a new one if they come back from the dead after flatlining? Stuff.
The thing is about that scene, Thor summons Cap's spirit but they don't say from where exactly. Only that it is cold and dark like the bottom of the sea. They also say that his spirit is lingering. Lingering in the cold and dark doesn't sound like something the spirit of Captain America would do naturally.

Also remember, they went to great lengths to show us Steve's dead body. We saw it lose the effects of the super-soldier serum and revert to it's natural scrawny dimensions. They also went to great lengths to keep us up to speed on Red Skull, Dr. Faustus, Arnim Zola, the Grand Director(50's Cap), Crossbones and Sin.

So, how do I think Bru is going to return the original Cap to the land of the living?

First off, when Cap was shot he was hit with a transmitter that was designed to shunt his entire mind into a device similar to what Arnim Zola uses to house his. Only, Cap's doesn't have any arms or legs attached, nor is it connected to any outside computer. So they have him locked away safely with the lights out. This is why Cap's spirit was lingering in the cold and dark, it has been captured.

But his body really died.

So, how do they return him to the land of the living when his body has been dead now for over a year of Marvel time? That is where the Grand Director comes in. The guy running around issue 600 with his own Cap costume and shield. The guy who has idolized Cap so much that he had his features altered to look exactly like him. The guy who took a super soldier serum to try to be like Cap. The guy who has spent the better part of 50 years trying to BE Cap. It will be his body that Cap's friends will transfer his mind into. We will have the real Cap back, and he will look exactly like Cap, but he will be on his second body.

Either that, or the reunion of his essence to his body magically restores it to life and reactivates the super soldier serum in it. Which would be a cop out, IMO. We were promised a death that sticks, even though we all knew he was going to come back. My theory at least gives us a dead body that was Steve Rogers as well as a living one with the soul of the original. And it would provide some reason for Bucky to remain as Cap afterwards as well. As Steve would likely need some time to come to terms he is now living in another man's body, even though it looks like his own. He would likely have to work out the kinks in the real differences in the two bodies that only he would be aware of. And then he would also want to deal with the issue that was brought up before his "death", that he has gotten out of touch with the American spirit. So he would take the time to go out and find it while he lets Bucky carry on holding the shield. Then he comes back for real another year down the road, just in time for his movie to be released.
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Old June 17 2009, 09:23 PM   #77
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Re: Captain America... Spoilers

Might work... afterall how many times has the Red Skull come back in new bodies, same mind and soul, different body. So it might work. Although I keep thinking that his own body could regenerate somehow... (I never read that issue where his body kind of shrivels up) but maybe that's what the SSS needed to do to repair the damage from the gunshot wounds. Essentially it took all the strength from the rest of the body to repair the damage, but when the damage is repaired maybe it'll take a little while for the body to rebulk itself back up.

What could be interesting for a while... have Steve return basically as a fit yet normal guy. Not a skrawny 98lb weakling, but an average build and strength. And see him gradually rebuild himself on his own. He's still got his keen tactical mind, he's still got his spirit, he just can't jump across buildings and kick as much ass as he once could. He's still Steve Rogers. He's still a strong leader. He's still an icon. But he wouldn't be "super" for a while... which means he doesn't have to register as a superhuman, nor would he be treated as such. Not to say he's a pushover, he just has to use his brain and other skills more than his physical ability, which HAS been what Cap was always about.
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Old June 17 2009, 11:49 PM   #78
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Re: Captain America... Spoilers

JoeZhang wrote: View Post
But what else are you going to do? The aging reactionary comics superhero audience constantly show with their purchases that they are not particular interested in change, they want their comfort blankets.
Actually, what we want is what we used to have: Writers who can write and Artists who can draw.
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Old June 18 2009, 06:25 PM   #79
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Re: Captain America... Spoilers

Hear hear! And draw clearly! I have to admit, I really hate a couple of the artists who did New Avengers, you could barely tell who was who, if it was Tony Stark talking or Dr. Strange. I hate that sketchy faux Dale Keown/Texiera style. Worked for PITT and Wolverine and Ghost Rider back in the 90s... doesn't really work now.

Not when you've got artists like Bagely, Park, Larroca, Chen and Granov at your beck and call. And honestly if they use the same "genius" who wrote that shit Ultimatum to do the return issues of Cap... bah. Marvel can suck my dick. They aren't gettin' a penny of out me!
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Old June 19 2009, 01:31 AM   #80
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Re: Captain America... Spoilers

NickRyder wrote: View Post
Not when you've got artists like Bagely, Park, Larroca, Chen and Granov at your beck and call. And honestly if they use the same "genius" who wrote that shit Ultimatum to do the return issues of Cap... bah. Marvel can suck my dick. They aren't gettin' a penny of out me!
Bagley doesn't work for them anymore.

Reborn is being written by Ed Brubaker, the same person who's been writing this story from the start.
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Old June 19 2009, 05:36 AM   #81
Nick Ryder
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Re: Captain America... Spoilers

Since when does Bags no longer work for Marvel? He was one of my favorite artists!

Well Brubaker's done a good job so far. Picked up my copy of Captain America 600 today, kinda liked the many stories idea, reminded me somewhat of some of the Superman comics that came out around the time of his "death". And it just makes me hate Osborn even more!

Fuck you Joe Queseda for giving us OSBORN as head of HAMMER... oh that sounds all warm and fuzzy. Queseda is Satan in a t-shirt! Anyone who likes that dipshit is a moron who deserves what they get!
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Old June 19 2009, 06:07 AM   #82
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Re: Captain America... Spoilers

NickRyder wrote: View Post
Since when does Bags no longer work for Marvel? He was one of my favorite artists!
He went exclusive to DC about a year and a half ago after he finished his run on Ultimate Spider-Man. He spent the last year doing the art on the weekly series Trinity, and every issue shipped on time! He will be doing a four issue arc on Batman and will then be taking over as permanent artist on Justice League of America. Although, his exclusivity period may be over now. As he is reportedly contributing artwork to the upcoming Ultimate Spider-Man: Requiem two issue special before Marvel relaunches their line under the Ultimate Comics banner.
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Old June 19 2009, 06:22 AM   #83
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Re: Captain America... Spoilers

can't wait to see "Cap" back...
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Old June 19 2009, 08:58 AM   #84
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Re: Captain America... Spoilers

What i always wondered is why do "modern" writers seem incapable of creating new, equally popular characters?

Spiderman, Cap America, Iron Man, Hulk, Thor etc.. all created in the Stan Lee era.

I don't think we have heroes created in our time (90s and 00s) that equal their popularity and pop culture importance.

Why is that? Are we not giving them a proper chance to become as established? Are they not iconic enough? Or are they just not that interesting to begin with..

I know the reason why the big ones like Marvel and DC can't kill off main characters for good.. it's because they are the cash cows of the companies. Look at how much derision DC got when they tried to update Superman (i liked his new costume.. didn't much care for the new set of powers) until they quickly changed back (possibly retconning their statements as in "It was always planned like this.. just a short stint"). However if we'd have "equal" heroes i believe you could kill off some main heroes for good and continue to earn money with your own creations.

Just look at the mainstream impact Cap's death had and the unmasking of Peter Parker.. it was on major news networks for friggin' sake!
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Old June 19 2009, 09:11 AM   #85
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Re: Captain America... Spoilers

I'd argue that Wolverine is probably more popular than Thor or Cap and wasn't created until long after them.

However, the comic book reading audience is a lot smaller these days. The kind of characters that become as iconic as Spider-Man and co are being created for other audiences - TV, film, video games etc.
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Old June 19 2009, 12:11 PM   #86
Nick Ryder
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Re: Captain America... Spoilers

Course even with Wolverine his popularity came out of the X-Men which was a Stan Lee creation. I mean Lee didn't create Cap, but he was brought back into the mainstream by him. Even Venom, Punisher and some of the other 'popular' characters were created as spin offs from Stan Lee created characters.

There's a reason why Stan's "The Man". I do agree that it seems like some of characters created after the 60s-70s just haven't had the same "beloved-ness" of the older characters. Sure there are a few favorites, but they aren't to the level of the biggies.
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Old June 19 2009, 12:15 PM   #87
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Re: Captain America... Spoilers

^That said, Stan Lee didn't create Cap.
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Old June 19 2009, 02:12 PM   #88
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Re: Captain America... Spoilers

Marvel's kind of interestin' in that way... other than Cap and Bucky, few pre-60s characters were so beloved and iconic that if Marvel even THOUGHT about doing anything to them, killing them, changing their costumes, changing their alliances, its BIG NEWS. But look at some of the early and "first" Marvel characters, Human Torch, Namor, the rest of the "Invaders", the other WW2 characters, sure some of them are STILL around and active, buuuuut no one cares that much about them. Maaaybe Namor, but still few outside of Marvel-dom really know of him. He wasn't in the more modern cartoons (that I recall) in such a way that he was instantly iconic and 'sorta known'. So really its a testament to the character that he's endured as long as he has. And I STILL attribute his lasting charm to Stan Lee. He was a wartime hero, he was a 'commie smasher', but I doubt he would have endured as long as he has if he wasn't an Avenger. If he wasn't one of Marvel's "big heroes". And that's Stan Lee's doing.

Wolverine - yes, he was ceated by Len Wein and David Cockrum buuut his REAL popularity didn't come until he was firmly firmly entrenched in the X-Men, which was yep... a Stan Lee creation.

Although I won't deny that certain creators were REALLY what made some of these characters popular. The X-Men were all but canned until Giant Sized X-Men. Spider-Man well... he had a lot of good writers and some not so good ones over the years, but he's still Stan's baby. But guys like Bagely, Romita, McFarlane REALLY put him over the top in terms of iconic status. Think about some of the promo pieces they use for Spidey, those are going on 20-30 years old. Nicieza, Busiek, and so many other writers have kept him 'fresh' over the years. Iron Man is kind of the odd one of the bunch, he's so iconic, yet no one artist or writer over his long history is his "iconic" writer/artist. Sure Layton, Romita, Chen and now Granov have left their indelible mark on the character, but I guess the funny thing is, when they want to show Iron Man, they show either his second Kirby designed armor OR the 90s era Modular armor which the cartoon was based on. Hulk... well Peter David left his mark on the Not so jolly green giant. But I think in the general public's mind, the iconic honor belongs to Bill Bixby.

Cap's a special character because he works so interchangably with the ENTIRE Marvel Universe. You can see him just about every 'universe' and he works. Although I'm still not entirely sure that the whole "Every non-natural born super powered being was because they were part of things that were spun out of the Super Soldier program" hell they even shoehorned Weapon X into the Captain America legacy.

BUT that just goes to show that Captain America is THE icon of Marvel and really that's impressive. Out of ALL the heroes in the Marvel stable, Cap is like the 'god of liberty'.
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Old June 19 2009, 04:07 PM   #89
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Re: Captain America... Spoilers

FPAlpha wrote: View Post
What i always wondered is why do "modern" writers seem incapable of creating new, equally popular characters?
The biggest reason would be that Marvel and DC have both got very full universes already; the groundwork for Marvel's was primarily laid in the 1960s, and, while important characters have been added since, in general, the most important character types and roles have been taken.

Also, the audiences, whether longtime fans or kids who grew up on the cartoons (which only focus on a few major franchises, like the X-Men and Spidey) know what they like.

You might compare it to how Hollywood is now mostly preoccupied with sequels and remakes for its big blockbusters.
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Old June 19 2009, 04:20 PM   #90
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Re: Captain America... Spoilers

Hermiod wrote: View Post
I'd argue that Wolverine is probably more popular than Thor or Cap and wasn't created until long after them.
Even then we are still talking mid-70's creation. Even discounting him coming out of a Stan Lee creation.
Same for Punisher, era and argument, mid-70s.

Is there a character that has been created post 1980 that has had a huge impact on not just comics but media as well?
To try and answer my own question I'd say Venom, but again its the 'spun out of a Lee character' discounted argument. Maybe Deadpool will be? Again, spun out of mutant books. Does that discount him?

I think it might be unfair to discount that way since a large portion of Marvel has his fingerprints on so many characters.
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