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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old June 18 2009, 05:13 AM   #16
Qonos
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Re: Alternate Timeline: Things I Don't Think People Understand

Babaganoosh wrote: View Post
Jeri wrote: View Post
Orci said that the alternate reality used in this movie is a departure from all the other time-travel rationales in previous Trek.
I don't consider this a big deal. I just think of it this way:

It's the black hole. That alone makes this different from any previously seen method of Trek time travel.

Assuming that this is not just an alternate timeline, but an alternate *universe*, that the Narada and the Jellyfish both crossed into. (It would certainly explain a few things, such as the look of the Kelvin, the differing stardate system, etc.)

Thus, the prime timeline we all know and love is doubly protected.
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Old June 18 2009, 05:17 AM   #17
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Re: Alternate Timeline: Things I Don't Think People Understand

I don't care too much that they used the time travel device they did in Star Trek XI (although I guess I'm in the minority that would have preferred a straight Batman Begins style reboot).

But please, no retconning of all previous Trek time travel to match the new style. All the drama of this franchise's classics like "City on the Edge of Forever", "Yesterday's Enterprise", "The Visitor", First Contact, and more is simply gutted by converting them to the infinite number of parallel universes model.

After all, who cares if the Nazi's won / the Klingons won / the Borg assimilated Earth / the whale probe destroyed Earth — its all just one more quantum reality technobabble thing. No drama.
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Old June 18 2009, 05:54 AM   #18
Peter the Younger
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Re: Alternate Timeline: Things I Don't Think People Understand

Bertie wrote: View Post
I don't care too much that they used the time travel device they did in Star Trek XI (although I guess I'm in the minority that would have preferred a straight Batman Begins style reboot).

But please, no retconning of all previous Trek time travel to match the new style. All the drama of this franchise's classics like "City on the Edge of Forever", "Yesterday's Enterprise", "The Visitor", First Contact, and more is simply gutted by converting them to the infinite number of parallel universes model.

After all, who cares if the Nazi's won / the Klingons won / the Borg assimilated Earth / the whale probe destroyed Earth — its all just one more quantum reality technobabble thing. No drama.
Well that is the classic choice whenever you're writing a time travel story:

Single Timeline: high stake,s but you have to deal with logical paradoxes, which are usually solved through some sort of totally fantastical, hand-wavy explanation like "temporal waves."

Multiple Worlds: No paradoxes, but the only person who is really threatened by time travel is the time traveler himself/herself.

No Changing the Past: Guess what, you have no free will! Whee!!! Usually incredibly depressing, and also kills the stakes.


Basically, time travel sucks, and should be avoided at all costs.
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Old June 18 2009, 06:03 AM   #19
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Re: Alternate Timeline: Things I Don't Think People Understand

Peter the Younger wrote: View Post
Well that is the classic choice whenever you're writing a time travel story:

Single Timeline: high stake,s but you have to deal with logical paradoxes, which are usually solved through some sort of totally fantastical, hand-wavy explanation like "temporal waves."

Multiple Worlds: No paradoxes, but the only person who is really threatened by time travel is the time traveler himself/herself.

No Changing the Past: Guess what, you have no free will! Whee!!! Usually incredibly depressing, and also kills the stakes.


Basically, time travel sucks, and should be avoided at all costs.
Best thing I've read all day.
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Old June 18 2009, 06:44 AM   #20
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Re: Alternate Timeline: Things I Don't Think People Understand

Where is the suspense, the emotional investment, the importance in multiple timelines? You're not in your universe and nothing you do will change a thing that happens there. You're totally somewhen else and will never get back. Okay Nero is a man obsessed with revenge and he doesn't care that he's not at home any more he still gets to kill some Vulcans. His motive doesn't change. Spock didn't go willingly back in time and he'll still do what he can to prevent mass murder. But here's me saying, "You're telling me I have an escape clause to ignore this movie if I want, that I can choose not to accept it as some form of canon and discard its events as irrelevant to my beloved history"? Stupid writer right there who removes any stakes he might have created. It doesn't matter anyway because Orci is functionally wrong.

Here's why:
We will never again, (how much you wanna bet?) EVER (how much??) see another movie or series set in the old universe. "Prime" now exists solely in the imagination of the fanboy. A good place for it too since there are many imaginitive people here alone.

However you want to add it up, Prime is gone and Nu is here to stay.

PS QM justifications for multiple realities is such a stretch, really. Quantum particles don't care when or where they are or where they're going, and according to Heisenberg, particles only have the potential to be different(=alternate) until we observe them anyhow and then they're real and they're here.

Done my rant. Don't expect I'll change anyone's mind and please, don't try to change mine. I choose to care about Nu instead.
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Old June 18 2009, 06:49 AM   #21
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Re: Alternate Timeline: Things I Don't Think People Understand

Sabataage wrote: View Post
Babaganoosh wrote: View Post
Jeri wrote: View Post
Orci said that the alternate reality used in this movie is a departure from all the other time-travel rationales in previous Trek.

Assuming that this is not just an alternate timeline, but an alternate *universe*, that the Narada and the Jellyfish both crossed into. (It would certainly explain a few things, such as the look of the Kelvin, the differing stardate system, etc.)

Thus, the prime timeline we all know and love is doubly protected.
I like that one the best. It would be nice if Spock had said as much. That while the technology and ship designs were different, enough remained the same time for him to adapt and recognize it, like Scotty and Kirk.
I thought Kirk (or someone else?) realizing that their universe is probably the alternate universe pretty much reassured me that the original timeline is preserved, even if it's another universe. I kept thinking that there was going to be a course correction, but came to realize and decided to accept that our beloved timeline will always be ours; the new future is just going to be a little different.
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Old June 18 2009, 07:08 AM   #22
Captain Zog
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Parallel Universe

Am I the only one who considers Trek XI to take place in a parallel universe from the get go? I look at it like this:

Spock and Nero travel to a parallel universe, where Nero alters the history of this universe.

Simple.
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Old June 18 2009, 07:29 AM   #23
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Re: Alternate Timeline: Things I Don't Think People Understand

I've read the Orci interview and I'm annoyed. Orci basically says that he knows that his story contradicts a lot of other Star Trek time travel stories but it's their own fault that they don't conform to the best current scientific theory. In other words he's pissing on everything that came before while still trying to pretend that his movie is merely an alternate timeline and not a true reboot. He tries to justify his view by citing the episode 'Parallels', even though that episode had absolutely nothing to do with time travel. It was about travelling to already-existing quantum realities (parallel universes).

The best current scientific theory says a lot of things. It also says that faster-than-light travel is impossible and that alien life is extremely rare. Star Trek has never been about hard science and therefore hard science should never be used as an excuse to contradict well-known stories that take place in the same series. If time travel merely creates parallel timelines, then all the hard work and epic battles to repair changes in the timeline were a waste of time. In some episodes, the main characters sacrifice their lives in order to undo their timeline and restore the original one.

I have several possible theories about how the old timeline relates to the new timeline.

1. The old timeline no longer exists because Nero went back in time and changed it, and the changes were never repaired. That's how it worked in 'The City on the Edge of Forever', 'Yesterday's Enterprise' and 'First Contact'. Just because you can still watch the DVDs, doesn't mean the original timeline hasn't been destroyed. I can still read pre-Crisis Superman comics.

2. Most of the time, when you go to the past and change something, the changes affect your own timeline. But on rare occasions, changing the past spawns a parallel timeline. It's just an unusual quirk in reality.

3. Instead of simply travelling back in time, Nero travelled back in time AND into an already-existing parallel universe. This so-called 'diagonal time travel' has already happened once in Star Trek: the Defiant in 'In a Mirror Darkly'. In my opinion, this is the best explanation because it explains why all the technology looks completely different. Nero destroying the USS Kelvin doesn't explain that at all.

The end of the comic 'Countdown' shows Picard and Data talking immediately after Spock disappeared, which implies that the original timeline remains, but the only definitive proof will be if there's a story in the original timeline that takes place after Nero and Spock went back in time.
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Old June 18 2009, 07:35 AM   #24
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Re: Parallel Universe

I agree with you, I just wrote a post on another thread where I proposed this theory. It's the only one that really makes any sense.

EDIT: I wrote this post before the threads were combined. Just, um, ignore this post.
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Old June 18 2009, 07:52 AM   #25
M'Sharak
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Re: Parallel Universe

Captain Zog wrote: View Post
Am I the only one who considers Trek XI to take place in a parallel universe from the get go?
No, I don't think you are.

Captain Zog wrote: View Post
I look at it like this:

Spock and Nero travel to a parallel universe, where Nero alters the history of this universe.

Simple.
We've already got an active (and parallel) "alternate universe" discussion thread, so I'll merge this one with that. Please remain parallel for the operation...
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Old June 18 2009, 08:14 AM   #26
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Re: Parallel Universe

I think that the timeline in Star Trek IS the Prime timeline, and that it has been changed (some of TOS, TNG, DS9, VOY as we knew them wiped out ie. a reboot) by the events of the movie; but the producers were forced to throw in the stuff about "alternate timelines" in order to appease the canon freaks and prevent mass suicides.
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Old June 18 2009, 09:26 AM   #27
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Re: Alternate Timeline: Things I Don't Think People Understand

Star Trek Online is going with the idea that the original timeline still exists. I'm not sure if an online RPG counts though.
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Old June 18 2009, 04:13 PM   #28
Deks
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Re: Alternate Timeline: Things I Don't Think People Understand

Extrocomp wrote: View Post
Star Trek Online is going with the idea that the original timeline still exists. I'm not sure if an online RPG counts though.
Games aren't considered canon ... although it provides an intriguing continuation of what came after the new movie as it capitalizes on the premise that Spock actually went into another reality.

Plus I am still of an opinion that Star Trek might very well be happening in the 'original' time-line as we knew it ... it was merely changed by Nero's actions.
I also see Uhura's 'alternate reality' as an explanation that their reality now became something different from when it used to be ... merely confirming what nuSpock said.
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Old June 18 2009, 05:00 PM   #29
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Re: Alternate Timeline: Things I Don't Think People Understand

suarezguy wrote: View Post
I maintain that the drama in The Voyage Home or "Endgame", and the universe in general, comes from the idea that there's only one timeline and set of characters that can be changed, otherwise there's no point in trying to change, or prevent changes to, the past.
In that case, your beloved characters have already lost.

When something goes back in time to a place it wasn't meant to be, things are different. Forever. It doesn't matter if the bad guy is stopped or the evil plot is foiled because the damage is already done. You're just rooting for the least amount of damage anyway.

According to your idea, the only thing there is to care about is that everything just goes back to the way it was, which it can't.

xman wrote: View Post
Where is the suspense, the emotional investment, the importance in multiple timelines? You're not in your universe and nothing you do will change a thing that happens there. You're totally somewhen else and will never get back. Okay Nero is a man obsessed with revenge and he doesn't care that he's not at home any more he still gets to kill some Vulcans. His motive doesn't change. Spock didn't go willingly back in time and he'll still do what he can to prevent mass murder. But here's me saying, "You're telling me I have an escape clause to ignore this movie if I want, that I can choose not to accept it as some form of canon and discard its events as irrelevant to my beloved history"? Stupid writer right there who removes any stakes he might have created.
IMO you're looking at it wrong. It's the perception of the situation that matters.

Things like timeline changes, scientific technicalities, and quantum theory have nothing to do with whether or not the stakes are there. To me it's a matter of "how close are you to where you were". When the transporter scrambles Spock's molecules and reassembles them in a reasonably accurate facsimile of the pattern they were in, you don't all of a sudden go "Aw man, that's not the real Spock" and turn off the TV do you?

Even further, would you stop loving your mother if you thought about the fact that most the cells in her body have died and been replaced with new ones and that she's not the same person she was when you were 8? Of course not.
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Old June 30 2009, 05:13 PM   #30
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Re: Alternate Timeline: Things I Don't Think People Understand

xman wrote: View Post
Where is the suspense, the emotional investment, the importance in multiple timelines? You're not in your universe and nothing you do will change a thing that happens there.
When Kirk and crew went to the Mirror Universe (another alternate reality), they cared about the Halkans, and Kirk did not want Mirror-Spock to die, even though their actions there had no effect on their own universe.

It doesn't matter what alternate universe you are in -- your motivations and values don't change.

Would Nero have acted differently if the black hole had dumped him in the Mirror Universe? Or would he still be attacking Mirror-Vulcan, and forcing Mirror-Spock to watch?
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