Captain America... Spoilers

[Guy Gardener]

S.H.I.E.L.D. or H.A.M.M.E.R.?

I can see a return to S.H.I.E.L.D. easy enough, but changing the letterheads and stationary back again is going to cost another Billion Dollars the US Government doesn't have... Don't even get me started about the uniforms? Did they recycle the last ones into some sort of womb or just dump a hundred thousand blue bulletproof fatigues on the door step of the salvation army? If the all the Bums and hobos were bullet proof, that would change the pecking order on the streets some what, wouldn't it?

More likely they were probably sold to some third world dictatorship who is going to cause problems down the line, if Steve doesn't buy them back at a substantial loss since it's hardly fair to talk about escrow to countries without paved roads or (even) 20th century healthcare, that maybe Steve would want to lose money on any such deal if he could suggest where these monies be spent instead of an aggressive military bent on a warfooting because of Norman osborn's on pressurings before hand?

[Guy Gardener]

Newski wrote:

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The point was he was built around being this troubled person, he was designed to be this darker edgier character, tailor made for a generation raised on The Punisher and other anti heroes. A generation who is more interested in how much heroes cry than anything else.

i liked it when they met. Frank was scared of him a little. Bucky must have some serious street cred as the Winter Soldier to leave Frank Castle focussed on diplomacy with his mouth.

[Hermiod]

Kestrel wrote:

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And blaming Jean for Scott's infidelity is weak sauce and classic blame-the-woman thinking. What makes it worse is he tried to excuse it because it's telepathic and therefore not real. The hell? Buddy, your wife is a telepath!

Yeah, so maybe, just maybe, she might have picked up on the fact that ignoring your husband is not the way to preserve your marriage.

No, as an excuse "it wasn't real" doesn't really wash. "You won't even take your clothes off around me anymore" does.

Leaving aside that though, the Scott/Jean romance is in the Top Five Ever of superhero stories, so how can you say breaking that up is the first interesting thing to happen to the character? Did you enjoy breaking up Peter/MJ also?

1) Who said I enjoyed it ? 2) No, because I actually like Peter and MJ.

[Thespeckledkiwi]

Hell Martian Manhunter and Superman-2 is coming back ><

But I'm not surprised. Though Thor did an excellent job with Captain.

[Mr Light]

That was a hilarious thought experiment, Guy I think we've found the premise for the next huge summer crossover: HOBO SHIELD.

[Kestrel]

Hermiod wrote:

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Yeah, so maybe, just maybe, she might have picked up on the fact that ignoring your husband is not the way to preserve your marriage.

No, as an excuse "it wasn't real" doesn't really wash. "You won't even take your clothes off around me anymore" does.

Noted that Jean wasn't a saint either, but only one member of the couple actively had an affair. With a stacked telepath who has a history of seduction and is an old enemy of yourself and your wife's. Scott knows better, or he should know better, than to turn to Emma Frost for marriage counseling - how about Charles Xavier, hmm? Scott feels ignored? Confront Jean about it. Your marriage vows don't say "as long as she's satisfying your carnal needs as a man," they say in good times and in bad, in sickness and in health. And if he's really so fed up and disgusted, he can divorce herm then move on to the next attractive telepath. The man who could hold freakin' Apocalypse in his head, who is lauded for his impressive willpower and self control, and who abandoned his wife and young child for Jean... couldn't figure out a way to keep it in his pants longer than he did?

Hermiod wrote:

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1) Who said I enjoyed it ? 2) No, because I actually like Peter and MJ.

Oh. That's a fair point about not liking it, and one I'd not really considered. Sorry. And sorry about the Peter/MJ cheap shot, but good to see we agree on that.

[Hermiod]

Kestrel wrote:

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Noted that Jean wasn't a saint either, but only one member of the couple actively had an affair. With a stacked telepath who has a history of seduction and is an old enemy of yourself and your wife's. Scott knows better, or he should know better, than to turn to Emma Frost for marriage counseling - how about Charles Xavier, hmm? Scott feels ignored? Confront Jean about it. Your marriage vows don't say "as long as she's satisfying your carnal needs as a man," they say in good times and in bad, in sickness and in health. And if he's really so fed up and disgusted, he can divorce herm then move on to the next attractive telepath. The man who could hold freakin' Apocalypse in his head, who is lauded for his impressive willpower and self control, and who abandoned his wife and young child for Jean... couldn't figure out a way to keep it in his pants longer than he did?

The dialogue, if I am remembering it right, was not so much that she wouldn't have sex with him, but that she would happily parade around in her underwear with others yet she was covering herself up when they were alone. There's something wrong there. I'm not clearing Scott of any responsibility here but I'm not treating it as some huge betrayal either.

Honestly, I don't think he made a particularly wise choice either way. As both his wife and his mistress were telepaths and he isn't, honesty only ever has to run one way.

Oh. That's a fair point about not liking it, and one I'd not really considered. Sorry. And sorry about the Peter/MJ cheap shot, but good to see we agree on that.

Spider-Man is my favourite comic book character, even above Ms. Marvel. The only thing good that came out of breaking him and MJ up was the brief moment of squee! (the sort of fangirlish reaction us manly male comic book fans don't approve of) that came out of him asking Ms. Marvel out on a date.

[Nick Ryder]

Well, I think in someways Jean, being a telepath, should have known that Scott really wanted more of out their relationship. I thought they were, as it was said umpteenmillion times in the comics "we're telepathically bonded on levels few could ever touch" so how come she didn't know that he wanted more intimacy and hell, some more of the eyeball scorching sexy Jean that used to wear tight short mini dresses and prance around their bedroom in her undies or less? I have to agree a bit with Scott, sure he's a douche, but he had a point. Jean at that point was wearing roll neck sweaters constantly, slightly baggy pants and wasn't really drawn that glamorously. Sure I can see her possibly being tired of "hearing" people go "wow that's a great ass." or "she's got a nice pair... wonder if they're real?" or "hoochie mama mutie or no I'd hit it!" But c'mon I thought she and Scott had this lovey dovey kinda relationship that "exceeded all boundries, we're soul mates!"

Honestly I've found Emma to be a far more interesting character and partner to Scott than Jean ever was really. Plus, they were married for how long and still they haven't had a kid? I mean c'mon... they were married since the early 90s (X-Men #30!) and they STILL haven't had Rachel or some kid by that time? Look how quickly Scotty knocked up Maddy! Or is that why he was having a telepathic affair with Emma? They had sex on birthdays and anniversaries only?

Now back on the topic of Captain America ... I really didn't see much problem with Bucky taking on the mantle, even though I miss Steve and I think if they bring him back and keep Bucky as Cap, that's not bad really. I think Steve Rogers is the legendary character, Cap is just the suit and the moniker he uses when he throws his mighty sheild. but he's more than that.

Heh... President Steve Rogers! I said it first... Cap will run for Prez or be head of SHIELD OR... he'll be the Captain again. And leave Cap A for Bucky

[CaptainCanada]

Guy Gardener wrote:

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Black widow is almost 70. Bucky is only that old on paper. He's spent most of the last 8 decades sleeping, even if the Super... Wait? Bucky wasn't a Super Soilder? How the hell did he survive being frozen after he fell off the skulls rocket?

He wasn't frozen; the Soviets recovered him only hours after he went into the water.

[Mr Light]

I just finished reading the first "Death of Captain America" trade. It was confusing in parts, they really should have put a recap at the front. Why is the Red Skull in some Russian general's mind? Who is the fat bearded dude working with Red Skull and why? Since when does the Skull have a hot daughter? How did Bucky get ressurected? ... Reading the death issue for the first time it's pretty damn suspicious. Cap gets shot in the gut a few times and then is rushed off-screen where he is then pronounced dead. Then when we see the body it's this mummified age accelerated messed up corpse. Seems pretty clear he was whisked away and replaced with a body. I would imagine Nick Fury was behind it since they were saying that Fury blanked out camera coverage of the event so they wouldn't know how he was planning to rescue Cap. Looks like he did!

[CaptainCanada]

Mr Light wrote:

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Why is the Red Skull in some Russian general's mind?

General Lukin had the Skull assassinated in order to steal the cosmic cube from him in #1 of the series; it was revealed in #14 that, since the Skull was holding the cube at the moment of his death, he used it to transfer his mind into Lukin's. They've been stuck together ever since.

Who is the fat bearded dude working with Red Skull and why?

Doctor Faustus (a supervillain who specializes in psychological warfare), long-time Captain America villain, though his appearances in the current story are his first in about a decade and a half (since he was seemingly killed at the time).

Since when does the Skull have a hot daughter?

Sin was a villain during the Mark Gruenwald era in the 1980s; like Faustus, hadn't appeared for a good while until Brubaker brought her back from limbo.

How did Bucky get ressurected?

He was revealed to have never been dead. He was blown clear of the exploding drone, minus one of his arms, and fell into the sea; a Soviet submarine recovered him (thinking he might have the supersoldier serum in him). He didn't have the serum, but they brainwashed him for use as an assassin anyway; he spent the next 50+ years alternating between performing missions and be held in stasis.

I would imagine Nick Fury was behind it since they were saying that Fury blanked out camera coverage of the event so they wouldn't know how he was planning to rescue Cap. Looks like he did!

No. Nick Fury thinks he's dead.

[Thrall]

You do realize that "Scotty the Adulterer" is an (unfortunate) history of his, right? I mean, I love Cyclops, but it's kinda hard to ignore the fact that he has an unhappy history with telepaths. It sucks, because otherwise Slim is pretty much a paragon of virtue, but not an annoying paladin-type.

Scott never left Maddie for Jean. That's a myth that's been put forth by Morrison drones to justify his run. If they had bothered to even read those actual issues of X-Factor they would be surprised to discover that Maddie left him. She broke up with him and kicked him out of the house because he wouldn't give up being an X-Man. He and Jean didn't even get back together until he thought Maddie had been killed. Of course, when she came back she was The Gobblin Queen by that point so there was going to be no reconciliation.

[Kestrel]

Hermiod wrote:

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The only thing good that came out of breaking him and MJ up was the brief moment of squee! (the sort of fangirlish reaction us manly male comic book fans don't approve of) that came out of him asking Ms. Marvel out on a date.

NickRyder wrote:

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Honestly I've found Emma to be a far more interesting character and partner to Scott than Jean ever was really. Plus, they were married for how long and still they haven't had a kid? I mean c'mon... they were married since the early 90s (X-Men #30!) and they STILL haven't had Rachel or some kid by that time? Look how quickly Scotty knocked up Maddy! Or is that why he was having a telepathic affair with Emma? They had sex on birthdays and anniversaries only?

Oh, but we wouldn't want to make Scott and Jean look old, now would we? I mean, being married is bad enough, but having children?!

Kidding aside, I love how Cyclops has grown from fresh-faced neophyte to basically the senior statesmen of the X-Men in his lifetime.

NickRyder wrote:

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Heh... President Steve Rogers! I said it first... Cap will run for Prez or be head of SHIELD OR... he'll be the Captain again. And leave Cap A for Bucky

I'd be on board for Steve Rogers, Director of SHIELD! Or as President... we could have the first comic book featuring an ass-kicking President as the main character! Wait... what's that... you mean personally kicking ass and taking names shouldn't be the President's main focus? Oh...

Thrall wrote:

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Scott never left Maddie for Jean. That's a myth that's been put forth by Morrison drones to justify his run. If they had bothered to even read those actual issues of X-Factor they would be surprised to discover that Maddie left him. She broke up with him and kicked him out of the house because he wouldn't give up being an X-Man. He and Jean didn't even get back together until he thought Maddie had been killed. Of course, when she came back she was The Gobblin Queen by that point so there was going to be no reconciliation.

Guhh... whut? That's a complete mischaracterization of what happened, since Scott's "wouldn't give up being an X-Man" thread was all about obsessing over his dead girlfriend.

Here. From Chris Claremont, the man who gave us the Phoenix Saga...

Asked about his intended plans for Madelyne's character, Claremont said:
“ The original Madelyne storyline was that, at its simplest level, she was that one in a million shot that just happened to look like Jean [Grey, a.k.a. the first Phoenix]! And the relationship was summed up by the moment when Scott says: "Are you Jean?" And she punches him! That was in Uncanny X-Men #174. Because her whole desire was to be loved for herself not to be loved as the evocation of her boyfriend's dead sweetheart. I mean, it's a classical theme. You can go back to a whole host of 30's films, 40's, Hitchcock films - but it all got invalidated by the resurrection of Jean Grey in X-Factor #1. The original plotline was that Scott marries Madelyne, they have their child, they go off to Alaska, he goes to work for his grandparents, he retires from the X-Men. He's a reserve member. He's available for emergencies. He comes back on special occasions, for special fights, but he has a life. He has grown up. He has grown out of the monastery; he is in the real world now. He has a child. He has maybe more than one child. It's a metaphor for us all. We all grow up. We all move on.
Scott was going to move on. Jean was dead get on with your life. And it was close to be a happy ending. They lived happily ever after, and it was to create the impression that maybe if you came back in ten years, other X-Men would have grown up and out, too. Would Kitty stay with the team forever? Would Nightcrawler? Would any of them? Because that way we could evolve them into new directions, we could bring in new characters. There would be an ongoing sense of renewal, and growth and change in a positive sense.
Then, unfortunately, Jean was resurrected, Scott dumps his wife and kid and goes back to the old girlfriend. So it not only destroys Scott's character as a hero and as a decent human being it creates an untenable structural situation: what do we do with Madelyne and the kid? ... So ultimately the resolution was: turn her into the Goblin Queen and kill her off.[4] ^ Tegneserier: An interview with Chris Claremont, seriejournalen.dk
(shameless borrowed from Wiki)

Is Chris Claremont a Morrison Drone?

[Mr Light]

Where has Nick Fury said that he knows Cap is dead? Could he be lying? Also I believe I read somewhere that Thor has talked to Cap's spirit in the afterlife is that true? Of course they also showed Mockingbird in hell after she died but then Secret Invasion showed she was alive, a-right?

[CaptainCanada]

Mr Light wrote:

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Where has Nick Fury said that he knows Cap is dead? Could he be lying?

In the first issue of Secret Warriors Fury is standing completely alone in front of Captain America's Arlington grave, talking to the monument/himself about what he's going to do next.

Also I believe I read somewhere that Thor has talked to Cap's spirit in the afterlife is that true? Of course they also showed Mockingbird in hell after she died but then Secret Invasion showed she was alive, a-right?

Thor did indeed talk with Steve's ghost/spectre; they consulted with Brubaker on the specifics of that issue.