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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > The Next Generation

The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old June 15 2009, 12:44 PM   #91
jefferiestubes8
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35mm film framing for TNG and remastering

Maxwell Everett wrote: View Post
an example of how TNG was filmed in-camera as far back as the third season

This demonstrates how from season three onward, TNG has the potential to be presented on Blu-ray in 16x9 format (if every episode was filmed this way).
Wow. thank you for a great example.
"protecting for 16:9" when shooting 35mm for 4:3 and posting for 4:3 was not a priority before the late 1990s. Only a few shows did it like "ER".
I hope a Blu-ray fan collective set comes out to dip the toe in the Blu-ray water for TNG TV Trek remastering to HD.
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Old June 15 2009, 02:15 PM   #92
Falcor5
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Re: TNG DVD Transfers

Maxwell Everett wrote: View Post
For those of you who are interested, here's an example of how TNG was filmed in-camera as far back as the third season (at least) when Marvin Rush took over as Director of Photography (I'm pretty sure Jonathan West continued this practice in seasons 6 & 7):
Wow that is really cool thank you for posting that! Would be awesome if they ever could get TNG to be widescreen for HD.
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Old June 15 2009, 07:51 PM   #93
JoeD80
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Re: TNG DVD Transfers

Maxwell Everett wrote: View Post
  • The Green area represents the 35mm TV transmitted area -- the image we have on the DVDs (this scene is from "Menage a Troi.")
  • The Red area represents a Super 35mm 16x9 transmitted area -- the image you saw a glimpse of in the Enterprise episode "These Are The Voyages."
  • The Blue area represents the full 35mm camera aperture. This area is of course black because I don't have access to the actual film element.
Except TNG was filmed at 1.37:1; not the whole of a 35mm frame. That would give you about 12.33x9, not 16x9. There really isn't anything extra past your red and green areas.

Last edited by JoeD80; June 15 2009 at 08:03 PM.
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Old June 15 2009, 08:45 PM   #94
Maxwell Everett
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Re: TNG DVD Transfers

JoeD80 wrote: View Post
Maxwell Everett wrote: View Post
  • The Green area represents the 35mm TV transmitted area -- the image we have on the DVDs (this scene is from "Menage a Troi.")
  • The Red area represents a Super 35mm 16x9 transmitted area -- the image you saw a glimpse of in the Enterprise episode "These Are The Voyages."
  • The Blue area represents the full 35mm camera aperture. This area is of course black because I don't have access to the actual film element.
Except TNG was filmed at 1.37:1; not the whole of a 35mm frame. That would give you about 12.33x9, not 16x9. There really isn't anything extra past your red and green areas.
On the contrary, the fact that the red and green areas exist is prima facie evidence (to me anyway) that the blue area must have been fully exposed. It's the only way the two red and green images can co-exist. It's evidence that for at least this one shot from "Menage a Troi" and perhaps the whole series from season three onward, that they were exposing a full 35mm camera aperture, aka "Super 35mm" (the blue area) which is 1.37:1. The green area is the 1.33:1 they extracted for the video telecine in 1990. THAT area appears on the DVD sets.

Did you look at the Panavision PDF I provided a link to? Look at the last 35mm format. That's what they exposed on the film negative in 1990. The first one that says "35mm 4 perf" on the left is the area they extracted for telecine and editing. The fourth 35mm one from the bottom, the one labeled 1.78:1, is the area that Marvin Rush (the DP) went back and extracted from the original negative for the final episode of Enterprise, "These Are The Voyages."

The area you are suggesting -- the red and green areas taken together -- only adds up to an aspect ratio of 1.59:1, which is a non standard aspect ratio.
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Old June 15 2009, 08:50 PM   #95
JoeD80
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Re: TNG DVD Transfers

Yes, they were exposing 1:37:1. What I meant was, they were not filming widescreen. I was a little confused by what your blue area represented. 1.37:1 gives you a little extra, but it's close to the television aspect (1.33:1). The TNG footage in the Enterprise finale is *cropped* on the top and bottom in order to fit the 16x9 Enterprise frame. There was never a 1.78:1 version of TNG, which is what you'd need for 16x9, unless you're okay with extending the sides and cropping the top and bottom like that for every scene.

Last edited by JoeD80; June 15 2009 at 09:03 PM.
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Old June 15 2009, 09:19 PM   #96
Maxwell Everett
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Re: TNG DVD Transfers

JoeD80 wrote: View Post
Yes, they were exposing 1:37:1. What I meant was, they were not filming widescreen. I was a little confused by what your blue area represented. 1.37:1 gives you a little extra, but it's close to the television aspect (1.33:1). The TNG footage in the Enterprise finale is *cropped* on the top and bottom in order to fit the 16x9 Enterprise frame. There was never a 1.78:1 version of TNG, which is what you'd need for 16x9, unless you're okay with extending the sides and cropping the top and bottom like that for every scene.
Right, that's what I'm saying... a 1.78:1 image IS possible and Marvin Rush (DP on TNG in 1990 and on ENT in 2005) thought that this framing was acceptable -- for at least this one shot. So they may, stress may, have been protecting for widescreen following the original 16:9 Action Plan instituted in the early 1990s. Either 1.85 or 1.78.

It's a stretch, I admit... but it is possible. They are doing this same thing with Seinfeld on TBS in HD:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...9#post14578659
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Old June 15 2009, 11:36 PM   #97
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Re: TNG DVD Transfers

Trekker4747 wrote: View Post

Screen caps of the same scene would make for better comparison.

Edit:

Shit! - Keep reading next time, Trekker.

The difference is... slight. I can "see it" but I also can't help on thinking some "oddities" in the posting is going on.

Anyway, odd that two different sets would produce different results like that.

At any rate, glad the second set seems to be more to your liking.

Trekker, still swears his sets look pretty damn sharp -well, as sharp as the 1st and 2nd season can look.
Well, my set was only a few weeks old. In motion the second set looks way better, and I am quite happy with it. My 2nd Season disc set looks great (relatively) so I'm certain it was just a bad set of discs on the Season One set.

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Old December 12 2009, 08:12 AM   #98
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Re: TNG DVD Transfers

Santa, could you repost the image from the first page? It has been removed from Photobucket.
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Old December 13 2009, 02:58 AM   #99
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Re: TNG DVD Transfers

Interesting thread. If you think it looks bad on DVD, you should have seen the BBC transmissions in the nineties. The first two seasons were especially bad, with a terribly botched standards conversion resulting in some of the murkiest pictures and dullest sound I've seen. It was barely broadcast quality at times.

The DVDs are a marked improvement, but it's still pretty obvious that a full remaster from the original elements would result in a far superior picture quality. I'd love it to happen.
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Old December 13 2009, 03:28 AM   #100
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Re: TNG DVD Transfers

Starfleet wrote: View Post
Santa, could you repost the image from the first page? It has been removed from Photobucket.
Sorry, Starfleet, I don't have the original images anymore. Here, however, is a new screencap of Season 1 TNG on DVD (The Battle):



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Old December 13 2009, 07:32 AM   #101
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Re: TNG DVD Transfers

Looks about the same as my DVDs... What did the original one look like? Did it only look poor because the disc was faulty?
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Old December 13 2009, 02:05 PM   #102
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Re: TNG DVD Transfers

No, that's just what it looks like due to the poor source material.
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Old December 14 2009, 06:35 AM   #103
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Re: TNG DVD Transfers

Fair enough. I was always displeased with the quality (and 4:3 ratio) of the DVDs, its the kind of quality you'd expect from a Chinese bootleg (actually, my friend had some bootleg Voyager DVD's which I found the later seasons to actually look better than the official DVDs).

Fingers crossed for a 16:9 ratio 1080p remaster sometime in the near future!
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Old December 14 2009, 02:25 PM   #104
jefferiestubes8
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TNG & TNG-R?

Starfleet wrote: View Post
Fingers crossed for a 16:9 ratio 1080p remaster sometime in the near future!
Starfleet I don't think it's going to happen in any market other than Japan.
SoM posted about how TNG was shot on film.

FYI For Japan only TOS-R was cropped for 16:9 and the new visual effects were completed in 16:9. All other foreign markets and USA thus far has gotten the 4:3 release except when the XBOX Live Marketplace had TOS-R episodes only the visual effects were shown in 16:9 and The live-action shots were 4:3. In Japan the regular live action shots were cropped to match the rendered Visual FX for a 16:9 presentation.
see
TOS-R Goes Widescreen In Japan July 31, 2007


You should check out the massive 14-page thread:
Star Trek TNG Remastered?
for the detailed discussion on the picture quality, visual effects recreation/conforming, packaging, and just about anything else that would be involved with a remastering effort of the TNG series to HD.
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Old December 14 2009, 05:13 PM   #105
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Re: TNG DVD Transfers

Interesting decision. Would the Japan sets have an English audio option?
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