RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,749
Posts: 5,433,283
Members: 24,838
Currently online: 406
Newest member: Mei'konda

TrekToday headlines

Episode Four of The Red Shirt Diaries
By: T'Bonz on Sep 22

Star Trek: The Compendium Review
By: T'Bonz on Sep 22

Orci Drops Rangers Project
By: T'Bonz on Sep 22

Retro Review: Image in the Sand
By: Michelle on Sep 20

Star Trek: Shadows Of Tyranny Casting Call
By: T'Bonz on Sep 19

USS Vengeance And More Starship Collection Ships
By: T'Bonz on Sep 19

Trek 3 To Being Shooting Next Year
By: T'Bonz on Sep 19

Trek Messenger Bag
By: T'Bonz on Sep 18

Star Trek Live In Concert In Australia
By: T'Bonz on Sep 18

IDW Publishing December Trek Comics
By: T'Bonz on Sep 17


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Voyager

Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old June 13 2009, 11:48 AM   #1711
TedShatner10
Commodore
 
TedShatner10's Avatar
 
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Here is a interesting snippet from Wikipedia about "In the Flesh":

Fan reaction: At tv.com, the show (Voyager) receives an 8.8/10 rating, and fans voted the episode an 8.8/10 (great).[5] Startrek.com readers rated the episode a 3.9/5.[1] (Figures retrieved on 1/13/2008) While this indicates a positive reception by fans,[6] not all critics agreed.
Wikipedia

So, "In the Flesh" seems to a marmite episode that is generally more liked than disliked, much like the rest of VOY S5. "In the Flesh" also received a score of 7.9/10 over on IMDb, out of a hundred votes.

Oh, and "Genesis" is a shit sandwich almost as terrible as "Threshold".
TedShatner10 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 13 2009, 12:03 PM   #1712
VDCNI
Captain
 
Location: London UK
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

In the flesh was an interesting idea that didn't really come off and it essentially destroyed the mystique of Species 8472 and just made them into another run of the mill alien race. A Voyager speciality when you consider how dull they managed to make the Borg in the end.
VDCNI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 13 2009, 12:22 PM   #1713
VDCNI
Captain
 
Location: London UK
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Oh and thinking about it my other problem with "In The Flesh" was that I had enjoyed the first few episodes of Season 5. They had problems, particularly "Drone" since I didn't really care for the Borg character, but they were pretty solid and to me gave the impression that they were looking to try a new approach after Season 4 tailed off in quality towards the end. Then we got this episode where it felt like one of the writers had come up with the (pretty good) initial premise and then chucked Species 8472 into it because they needed a familiar alien and the Borg wouldn't have worked and they had already used the Hirogen in a similar but much more absurd high concept storyline.
VDCNI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 13 2009, 12:22 PM   #1714
Tomalak
Vice Admiral
 
Tomalak's Avatar
 
Location: Liverpool
View Tomalak's Twitter Profile
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

TedShatner10 wrote: View Post
And of course you lot are completely off in regards to the pretty good (though not great) "In the Flesh", with favourable reviews from Sonneberg and Jammer, although less well received by Sluss. On the other hand Sluss did not mind "Once Upon a Time", but as this thread has clearly demonstrated 'different strokes for different folks', so I can't take people's opinions far too seriously.
What's this "your opinions are wrong" stuff? They are opinions! GodBen has been clear from the start that this thread is from someone who didn't particularly enjoy Voyager, but is re-evaluating it. He's always got thoughtful comments, and explains what he doesn't like. When an episode is good, it gets all the credit it deserves.
Tomalak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 13 2009, 12:24 PM   #1715
TedShatner10
Commodore
 
TedShatner10's Avatar
 
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

So the general opinion of the generally decent "In the Flesh" is essentially 'Species 8472 ave sum spies posing cunningly as Feds, so thta ruinz dem, hur hur hur hur!'

I much rather watch "In the Flesh" than "Unimatrix Zero", since how can you conventionally fight a race like Species 8472 with one ship, when their ships can plough through Borg Cubes and fucking planets!? No scratch that, 8472 were already "ruined" in "Scorpion" when the EMH came up with a weapon the Borg could not come up with, despite having trillions of connected individuals drawing in technology from across the Milky Way over hundreds of years.

And why not have the faux Boothby as the spy camp's leader? He was the heart and soul of the real Starfleet Academy, a permanent fixture at the place for many decades, and well known by every ranking Starfleet officer. And Ray Walston was a great actor and I liked his guest starring role.
TedShatner10 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 13 2009, 12:27 PM   #1716
TedShatner10
Commodore
 
TedShatner10's Avatar
 
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Tomalak wrote: View Post
What's this "your opinions are wrong" stuff? They are opinions! GodBen has been clear from the start that this thread is from someone who didn't particularly enjoy Voyager, but is re-evaluating it. He's always got thoughtful comments, and explains what he doesn't like. When an episode is good, it gets all the credit it deserves.
"Drone" got all the credit it deserves, but not by him, that's for sure.

EDIT: In fact the credibility of this thread has been seriously eroded by GodBen giving "Drone" a (**) rating, a mediocre rating comparable to dull drivel like "The Cloud" or "Twisted", and a worse score to so-so episodes like "Persistance of Vision" and the uneven "Caretaker". "Drone" is in my opinion a objectively superior episode to solid VOY episodes like "Jetrel", "Faces", "Deadlock", "Tuvix", "Distant Origin", "The Gift" and "Hope & Fear".

It is really akin to giving DS9's "Chimera" a comparable score to such toss like "Q-Less", "Rules of Acquisition", "Badda-Bing, Badda-Bang", and "If Wishes Were Horses", for fuck's sake.

Last edited by TedShatner10; June 13 2009 at 01:42 PM. Reason: Elaboration
TedShatner10 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 13 2009, 02:46 PM   #1717
neogothboy74
Commander
 
neogothboy74's Avatar
 
Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan, United States
Send a message via AIM to neogothboy74 Send a message via Yahoo to neogothboy74
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Sorry I've been gone. More life stuff. Thanks to those who welcomed me back. I'm singing at my grandparents 50th anniversary party today, so I can't chat long...

However I also prefer "Drone' to the other early Season 5 episodes. Janeway's stupor in "Night" annoyed me. BLT's out of nowhere depression in "Extreme RisK" struck me as too little too late, and just unbelievable given what came before and after it. I respected the thought behind it, but like so much of Voyager, it was the execution that messed it up. "In the Flesh" is just pure crap - though I too was in the know of Ellen Tigh's appearance.

Another random thing that annoys me about Season 5 is that it feels like they were carbon coppying the formula for Season 4. If you look back at Season 4 and compare they have the premiere, then they have a 7of9 episode ("The Gift" vs "Drone") then a BLT episode ("Day of Honor" vs. "Extreme Risk") then a Chokotay alien of the week episode ("Nemesis" vs. "In the Flesh"). It may feel like a stretch, but when they were airing and you had to wait week to week - it was even more pronounced, and it just seemed so transparent that it still irks me. The thing I loved about Season 4 is that it felt like an improvement, that was shaky at times, but it felt like Voyager was growing into something more than the crap we got in Seasons 2 & 3. The momentum they had from Season 4 seemed to go nowhere though - it wasn't the beginning of some grand growth spurt; just a random turn in quality. And the early season copying of Season 4's episode progression was just emblematic of the show's unwillingness to go anywhere new. That might seem like an odd analysis, but it's the impression I was given at the time and it has stayed with me.

I don't know why people seem to rave about Season 5, because for me it was a step down from Season 4 - because it didn't really seem to improve at all (where Season 4 was an improvment on the previous 2 seasons); it just kind of stayed where it was. The show never went back to being as bad as Seasons 2 or 3, but they never really had a better season than 1 or 4 in my opinion; they just treaded mediocrity, with the occasional random winner (which I was grateful for...). But on those special episodes that broke through to gold status, they could only really be enjoyed if you ignored all the other bits, which kind of defeated the purpose; at least for me.

Though I will say that for all it's problems, Seasons 5-7 of Voyager LOOK really good. It's the content that generally sucks. No installment better demonstrates that for me than the 2 hour 'event' "Dark Frontier" which I'm sure will be covered in due course.

Gotta run. Still loving this thread though!
neogothboy74 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 13 2009, 03:02 PM   #1718
Tachyon
Fleet Captain
 
Tachyon's Avatar
 
Location: Finland
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Season 5 > Season 4 for me. Finally the Seven of Nine background explanation episodes were over and done and we got the other crew back again. Thank goodness.
__________________
Avatar by Belanna.
Tachyon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 13 2009, 03:06 PM   #1719
TheGodBen
Rear Admiral
 
TheGodBen's Avatar
 
Location: Ireland
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

TedShatner10 wrote: View Post
So the general opinion of the generally decent "In the Flesh" is essentially 'Species 8472 ave sum spies posing cunningly as Feds, so thta ruinz dem, hur hur hur hur!'
My spelling is better than that. I have two separate spell-checkers in action, the first is a dictionary plug-in for Firefox and the second is the spell-checker in the Google toolbar. I don't deny that sometimes spelling mistakes get through, and there are times when my sentence structure leaves much to be desired, but I don't feel your characterisation of me gives a fair representation of my vernacular.

And why not have the faux Boothby as the spy camp's leader? He was the heart and soul of the real Starfleet Academy, a permanent fixture at the place for many decades, and well known by every ranking Starfleet officer.
And when was that established? Let me just check my notes... hang on now... ah, here it is. It seems that Boothby was first established as a near-mythical character who mentored every famous Starfleet officer in a Voyager episode called In the Flesh. Hang on, that's the Voyager episode I just reviewed!

I believe Boothby was first mentioned in TNG's Final Mission when Picard told Wesley to seek him out at the academy, and he was later mentioned in The Game when Wesley told Picard that he met him. He appeared on-screen in The First Duty when Picard went to meet him and he indicated that he knew all the members of Nova Squadron, but there was never any indication that he served as a mentor or advisor to anybody other than Picard.

But it appears that the writers of In the Flesh wanted Boothby to be Janeway's mentor too so they concocted the notion that he was a mentor to all the great starship captains. It's a retcon, and it's a retcon that I don't buy. They took an interesting character from a great episode and they exaggerated his role to the point of absurdity.

TedShatner10 wrote: View Post
EDIT: In fact the credibility of this thread has been seriously eroded by GodBen giving "Drone" a (**) rating, a mediocre rating comparable to dull drivel like "The Cloud" or "Twisted", and a worse score to so-so episodes like "Persistance of Vision" and the uneven "Caretaker".
Fair enough, I guess I'll stop then, it's not like as if this thread is making me the crack money that I hoped it would. I guess it's back to male whoring for me. If any of your would like to avail of my new profession then feel free to send me a PM.

So long guys, it's been fun.
__________________
...so many different suns...
TheGodBen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 13 2009, 03:16 PM   #1720
Tomalak
Vice Admiral
 
Tomalak's Avatar
 
Location: Liverpool
View Tomalak's Twitter Profile
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

TedShatner10 wrote: View Post
It is really akin to giving DS9's "Chimera" a comparable score to such toss like "Q-Less", "Rules of Acquisition", "Badda-Bing, Badda-Bang", and "If Wishes Were Horses", for fuck's sake.
I think Badda-Bing, Badda Bang is a better episode, so there you go. Why are you getting so angry that someone might not agree with the received wisdom about certain episodes? It doesn't mean Jammer or whoever were wrong to enjoy In the Flesh, just that I don't happen to agree. Wouldn't life be dull if we all agreed on everything?
Tomalak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 13 2009, 03:32 PM   #1721
M
Vice Admiral
 
M's Avatar
 
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

TedShatner10 wrote: View Post
So, "In the Flesh" seems to a marmite episode that is generally more liked than disliked, much like the rest of VOY S5. "In the Flesh" also received a score of 7.9/10 over on IMDb, out of a hundred votes.
Who the fuck cares? It's like you are trying to prove that your opinion is right, while GodBen's is wrong. You know, opinions aren't provable anyway. Your opinion (or other's, for that matter) is just that; your opinion.

GodBen wrote: View Post
TedShatner10 wrote: View Post
So the general opinion of the generally decent "In the Flesh" is essentially 'Species 8472 ave sum spies posing cunningly as Feds, so thta ruinz dem, hur hur hur hur!'
My spelling is better than that. I have two separate spell-checkers in action, the first is a dictionary plug-in for Firefox and the second is the spell-checker in the Google toolbar. I don't deny that sometimes spelling mistakes get through, and there are times when my sentence structure leaves much to be desired, but I don't feel your characterisation of me gives a fair representation of my vernacular.
Your language usage and articulateness is just fine and ranks among the best I've seen on this board. I love reading your sentences. But not only is TedShatner10 absolutely wrong about that, the phrasing of his remark could very well interpreted as trolling.
__________________
Bashir: »Out of all the stories you told me, which ones were true and which ones weren't?«
Garak: »My dear doctor, they're all true.«
Bashir: »Even the lies?«
Garak: »Especially the lies.«
M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 13 2009, 04:24 PM   #1722
startrekwatcher
Rear Admiral
 
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

TedShatner10 wrote: View Post
So the general opinion of the generally decent "In the Flesh" is essentially 'Species 8472 ave sum spies posing cunningly as Feds, so thta ruinz dem, hur hur hur hur!'
Species 8472 just wasn't well suited for this story. Like I said, the idea is sound and so is the message of the episode but I just could not get past the poor choice of turning these alien beings into humans that we make peace with. If they had used another race I might have enjoyed it better.
I much rather watch "In the Flesh" than "Unimatrix Zero"
I actually enjoyed "Unimatrix Zero". I thought the idea of using the dream realm and those drones to mount a civil war as a way to finally bring down the Borg once and for all was a neat idea. Part I set things up nicely but Part II dropped the ball.
since how can you conventionally fight a race like Species 8472 with one ship, when their ships can plough through Borg Cubes and fucking planets!?
Here's an idea--don't use them.
startrekwatcher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 13 2009, 05:20 PM   #1723
TedShatner10
Commodore
 
TedShatner10's Avatar
 
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

GodBen wrote: View Post
My spelling is better than that. I have two separate spell-checkers in action, the first is a dictionary plug-in for Firefox and the second is the spell-checker in the Google toolbar. I don't deny that sometimes spelling mistakes get through, and there are times when my sentence structure leaves much to be desired, but I don't feel your characterisation of me gives a fair representation of my vernacular.
I apologise, I was not criticizing your spellling and grammar (which is excellent), I was being sarcastic about the mindset many have towards this episode.

For some reason I never deemed "In the Flesh" to be as bad as "Threshold", "Demons", "Elogium" or "Unforgettable" and earning zero marks because of having nothing salvagable about it. Species 8472 had not really been defanged as a race and there seemed to be strong air of paranoia if they recreated San Francisco to a disconcerting degree of accuracy if they just brushed with Voyager properly on one occasion. And the crew were just dealing with some of their agents, not Species 8472 proper. Like Jammer said in his review, this very much like a TOS episode, and in my opinion an essentially a late 90s version of "By Any Other Name".

But it appears that the writers of In the Flesh wanted Boothby to be Janeway's mentor too so they concocted the notion that he was a mentor to all the great starship captains. It's a retcon, and it's a retcon that I don't buy. They took an interesting character from a great episode and they exaggerated his role to the point of absurdity.
It was a mock up Starfleet HQ anyway. It came off as quirky rather than wrong that it was the alien posing as the groundskeeper, instead of a faux admiral, who was the defacto leader and main spokesman. He's inconspicuous and harmless looking, much like Ben Linus. Why was there a retcon when the real Boothby knew a high ranking officer like Picard when he was a kid, but also a fresh faced cadet like Crusher many decades later, already hinting at the real Boothby's social importance at Starfleet.

Fair enough, I guess I'll stop then, it's not like as if this thread is making me the crack money that I hoped it would. I guess it's back to male whoring for me. If any of your would like to avail of my new profession then feel free to send me a PM.

So long guys, it's been fun.
Please carry on, it is interesting seeing a different take on such a contentious series. I diagree with a lot of your opinions, but I'm not losing sleep over this and neither should you. I only diagree with some of your reviews, not all of them.
TedShatner10 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 13 2009, 07:01 PM   #1724
Praetor
Vice Admiral
 
Praetor's Avatar
 
Location: The fine line between continuity and fanwank.
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

GodBen wrote: View Post
Fair enough, I guess I'll stop then, it's not like as if this thread is making me the crack money that I hoped it would. I guess it's back to male whoring for me. If any of your would like to avail of my new profession then feel free to send me a PM.

So long guys, it's been fun.
Dude, if you stop this thread, I'm shall see you wear the gay cowboy outfit for the rest of your life! If you quit, I'm going to have to go find my old VHSs of these episodes and finish for you, and that shall not make me happy. I'm already schizophrenic enough as it is.

(BTW, keep an eye out for my PM. Can I get you wearing the cowboy outfit with the male whoring, or is it extra? )

GodBen, your spelling and grammar are perfect. I can only imagine that it was targeted to equate you with using l33tsp3ak. T3h audac1ty!

This thread has lost no credibility whatsoever, and I'm annoyed that certain people have seen fit to put it down simply because they share a different opinion, something that goes on far too often on this board anyway. Rather than attacking someone, why not simply express your own opinion and let that be that? If a discussion results, fine. If not, fine. So far, this thread has been pretty great for mostly civil discussion, let's keep it that way and carry forward.

A word of advice to all: personal attacks make it seem like one does not really have an argument and knows it, so for that reason alone they should be avoided.

Going back one final time to "Drone," I had a thought: we know originally that Harry Kim was going to die in "Scorpion" and be replaced by a male Borg. Is it possible, given that the actor who played one appeared in several Trek episodes and productions, that he had been offered the part in an interim period where the Seven character was male? If not, is it at least possible that "Drone" shows more of what the original take on the male character might have been like?
__________________
"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross; but it's not for the timid." - Q
Praetor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 13 2009, 07:24 PM   #1725
TedShatner10
Commodore
 
TedShatner10's Avatar
 
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I clearly overreacted and did not intend to directly attack GodBen so I apologise again, but it did not feel right to compare the compelling "Drone" with fluff like "Twisted", so this is my first serious disagreement with GodBen in this thread.

I don't feel so strongly about "In the Flesh", but that too is a better episode than "Twisted" and I've completely forgotten about "Coda", so that demonstrates how bad that episode was. I found "In the Flesh" a little silly, but mostly in a good way, much like most of TOS and "The Thaw".
TedShatner10 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 11:40 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.