A Semi-Hater Revisits Voyager

[The Grim Ghost]

startrekwatcher wrote:

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And I'm fine with that. I don't really need, like with damage to the ship, damage physically or psychologically done to the crew to be an ongoing thread the series must showcase.

I wasn't bothered that we didn't hear anymore about Geordi's reprogramming trauma from TNG's "The Mind's Eye". I was content with what with got from Picard's assimilation. Same for Picard's torture. If the writers want to expound upon it and can make it an interesting arc that's fine with me. But I'm just as content if the writers choose to let it take place offscreen in between episodes and let us fill in the blanks. I don't need to see their counseling sessions. More often than not, the time between episodes is nebulous enough.

Well I'm pretty much fine with that too. I was more making a point to GodBen's criticism. I do think it would be nice to see occasional nods to really major mind shattering events though. But long boring counseling sessions, yeah I think we can all do without that.

[TheGodBen]

destro wrote:

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Well I'm pretty much fine with that too. I was more making a point to GodBen's criticism. I do think it would be nice to see occasional nods to really major mind shattering events though. But long boring counseling sessions, yeah I think we can all do without that.

You think incorrectly.

I would have liked to see that, it could have been like the Dr Melfi scenes from The Sopranos which gave the viewer an interesting insight on the character. I'm talking about the Dr Melfi scenes from the early seasons when they actually meant something, not the Dr Melfi scenes in the later years when it was clear they were desperately trying to include her in the show even though she had no purpose anymore.

[apenpaap]

GodBen wrote:

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Depression is a serious problem, it doesn't go away just because a tree tells you that it cares about you.

[NumberSix]

Extreme Risk

At least we got to see Chakotay taking some initiative for once, even if it was just to help B'Elanna cure a sudden onset of depression. I mean, he grabbed her and dragged her into the holodeck and everything!

[Mareika]

I like Extreme Risk although I can see the issues.
But I always like to watch B`Elanna and Chakotay together.

[TheGodBen]

In the Flesh (0)

You have to wonder sometimes if the Voyager writers set out to ruin their enemies. I imagine the break meeting for this episode went like this:

Braga: Now that I'm in charge I plan to ruin the Borg, but I think we should do another test-run by ruining 8472 because our previous attempt to ruin the Hirogen with that nazi episode didn't work, too many people enjoyed it.
Menosky: You're so wise, Brannon. I wish we could take a bath together.
Braga: Maybe later. Ken, do you have any ideas?
Biller: Um... we could send Chakotay on a date with a sexy 8472.
Braga (drinking Guinness): Brilliant!
Fuller: Guys, I think this is a really bad idea.
Menosky: How dare you question the magnificent Braga!!
Fuller: But...
Menoksy: Quiet, you! *slaps Fuller*
Braga: Thanks Joe, you're my BFF.
Menosky: He likes me!
Braga: Mike, do you have any ideas?
M Taylor: Well, if you insist upon using 8472 maybe we could have them preparing to invade the Federation?
Braga: Interesting, but can you make it more stupid?
M Taylor: Why?
Braga: Don't question me!
Biller: Here's an idea; how about we have 8472 replicate Starfleet Command in the middle of the Delta Quadrant for no reason?
Braga (drinking Guinness): Brilliant!
M Taylor: That's retarded! You might as well make Boothby their leader.
Braga (drinking Guinness): Brilliant!
M Taylor: I wasn't being serious.
Braga: Too late, we're using it.
Menosky: This is why Rick made you the head of the writing staff Brannon, you're so clever. Can I braid your hair?
Braga: Hang on Joe, we have to choose who will write this episode first. How about... Nick, I'll get you to write it because you haven't said anything yet.
Sagan: Aww shit.
Braga: It had better be. I want all you guys writing complete crap so that I look better in comparison, and one day all the Trek fans shall adore me and make me into their new king! It should be sweet.
Fuller (mumbling): Asshole.
Braga: Now if you gentlemen will please excuse me, I'm off to screw Jeri Ryan for a bit. Come along Joe, you can watch.
Menosky: Yay!!


And that's my review for In the Flesh. Don't watch it. Don't ever watch it.

[startrekwatcher]

In the Flesh gets 2 stars from me.

This is one of those episodes that has a good message and a semi-decent story idea but doesn't work because of the antagonist that was chosen. It was all wrong to have chosen Species 8472. They were depicted as a truly alien lifeform who saw any other lifeform as weak. They were vicious and brutal. Now we have them looking like humans and using human vernacular. It just doesn't work. It is forced and contrived in the worst possible way. I thought the idea would have worked better on DS9 with the Founders having essentially these "red towns" as a way to prepare to infiltrate the Alpha Quadrant worlds.

And much like Boothby's appearance in "The Fight" this was purely gratuitous. We really didn't need him spouting folksy quips. I actually didn't care for any of the 8472 characters and this episode just cemented my disinterest in Chakotay.

Nick Sagan made his debut with VOY with this episode and would go onto work with other writers like Fuller in creating some of this season's most pedestrian offerings.

[TedShatner10]

startrekwatcher wrote:

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These reviewers' opinions carry no more or less weight than the rest of us.

Then why should your opinion and GodBen's matter?!

You seem to think just because they loved it that makes it so. This isn't the first time I've disagreed with them especially the Cynic who tended to get sidetracked with a lot of silly stuff and most of which was explained in the episode.

"Drone" is an excellent episode and a clear, obvious (****). It earned universally high praise by the majority of critics and viewers through its compelling characterization, award winning acting, the right balance between plausibility and high concept with the psuedo science, and pretty effects that make sense. Two stars is a pathetic and ill founded score to give to "Drone".

No but he was suppose to come in and get the show back on track with his input. Those last 7 episodes did very little for me.

Heroes was bottoming out so badly in the "Villains" volume, it killed my interest in the show stone dead. The last seven episodes seem a notable improvement but my interest in the show has been seriously eroded to give Heroes a chance again, even if it is slowly trying to patch things up.

I was actually excited about Brannon taking over season five since I'd always been a big fan of his however I wasn't all that impressed with the season as a whole. Now individual episodes he wrote that year were the better ones but season five was a stepdown from season four but better than season three. It is also my least favorite of the three modern Trek series' fifth seasons.

I thought Season Five of TNG was mildly weak as well, even if it had the kick ass "Renunification" two parter and "The Inner Light".

It had a lot of mediocre uninteresting episodes--Extreme Risk, Nothing Human, Once Upon a Time, Gravity, Juggernaut, Warhead and another trilogy of weak episodes with The Fight, The Disease, Course Oblivion.

"Juggernaut" was a superior retread of "Dreadnaught", only really cramped by its terrible hypospray gimmick. I kinda of liked "Gravity". "The Fight", "The Disease", and "Once Upon a Time" were the only genuinely terrible episodes.

Not really on TNG. I thought most f his episodes were solidly entertaining--Identity Crisis, The Game, Cause and Effect, Timescape, Parallels, All Good Things. Then on VOY he wrote Scorpion, Flashback, Future's End, Deadlock etc

"Sub Rosa" and "Genesis", but those episodes you mentioned were wizard.

No season of VOY was all that consistent--that was one of my criticisms of the show but I would say either season 4 or 1 were as consistent as the series ever was. And while ENT-3 was uneven it had a ton more 3.5 or 4 star episodes such as Azati Prime, The Council, The Forgotten, Countdown, Twilight whereas there wasn't one single episode in season five I'd give higher than 3 stars out of 4. And even with a lot of filler episodes, ENT-3 managed to be compelling and interesting in a way that VOY never was in any season.

Season Three was fun but not Earth shattering and had a silly resolution with the Space Nazis. It was trying to copy DS9's story arc style but felt slightly souless and out of place, even if it was trying hard and was entertaining in short bursts.

And "In the Flesh" ruined complete fuck all, since you've got the gist of the episode right by comparing the Starfleet mockup by Species 8472 as a Soviet-style spy town run by a small (ISOLATED!!!) cell of infiltrators that have so effectively posed as humanoids, they're no longer true members of their original species. Species 8472 to this day have remained an undefeated force that has suffered none of the set backs suffered by the Borg and Dominion, the crew merely dealt with some of its agents on speaking terms, not fighting terms. And Star Trek is about finding peaceful resolutions first, before fighting, especially against a race who were bitchslapping the Borg Collective don't you think?

I give "In the Flesh" a reasonable 3/5 or 7/10.

[startrekwatcher]

TedShatner10 wrote:

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Then why should your opinion and GodBen's matter?!

They don't. I just enjoy reading other's opinions and sharing mine.

"Drone" is an excellent episode and a clear, obvious (****).

Obviously four stars to you. Entertainment is subjective. Some people might like the same episode but for completely different reasons or different people might agree on one episode but disagree on another.

Some might like an episode for the acting while another might like it for the action.

It earned universally high praise by the majority of critics and viewers through its compelling characterization, award winning acting, the right balance between plausibility and high concept with the psuedo science, and pretty effects that make sense. Two stars is a pathetic and ill founded score to give to "Drone".

In your opinion. I personally didn't see award winning acting or compelling characterization. I wouldn't give it 2 stars-that is more fitting of a loser episode which "Drone" wasn't but it wasn't a classic piece of storytelling. This episode certainly didn't stand out like the real masterpieces do.

I thought Season Five of TNG was mildly weak as well, even if it had the kick ass "Renunification" two parter and "The Inner Light".

I thought TNG season five was consistently entertaining. Did it always mean thoughtful episodes? No. But it had a nice constant stream of varied but satisfying offerings which VOY did not. Most weeks my attention was held and I walked away with very little to be disappointed in or to complain about. I wouldn't give any of VOY's episodes more than 3 stars with most receiving a mediocre 2-2.5 star score whereas TNG-5 had numerous 3.5 or 4.

"Silicon Avatar"(3.5 stars) was more emotionally affecting than Extreme Risk(2 stars). "I Borg"(3.5 stars) was superior to Drone. "Power Play"(3 stars), "The Next Phase"(3 stars), "Conundrum"(3.5 stars), Violations(3 stars), "Disaster"(3 stars) were all better written and solidly entertaining as far as high concept sci-fi jeopardy outings compared to the drivel that was "The Fight", "Course Oblivion", "Warhead" or "Juggernaut". "Ethics"(3.5 stars) did a much better job dealing with medical ethics than "Nothing Human"(2 stars). "Hero Worship"(3 stars) is how you do a child-centered episode as opposed to "Once Upon a Time"(even "Cost of Living"'s childish holodeck program was more enjoyable than Treevus and Flotter). You also had other solid 3 star outings like "Times Arrow", "Ensign Ro". There were weaker episodes like "The Masterpiece Society" and "Cost of Living" but they weren't as unwatchable like "The Disease" or "The Fight".

"Juggernaut" was a superior retread of "Dreadnaught", only really cramped by its terrible hypospray gimmick.

Gravity was a bore from start to finish. It was just standard formulaic VOY with a lot of atmospherics that did nothing for me and a shallow message about polluting. I don't care to see B'elanna panting and grunting for an hour and being a grouch.

"Sub Rosa" and "Genesis", but those episodes you mentioned were wizard.

I like "Genesis". One of season seven's more entertaining episodes.

Season Three was fun but not Earth shattering and had a silly resolution with the Space Nazis.

I actually liked the Nazi cliffhanger. It ultimately took the least interesting direction it possibly could have but on its own it provided an intriguing hook for season four.

It was trying to copy DS9's story arc style but felt slightly souless and out of place, even if it was trying hard and was entertaining in short bursts.

So what if it tried copying DS9's style? It was entertaining and compelling. The writers developed an interesting mythology with lots of neat twists, great visuals, outstanding production, riveting character arcs for Archer and T'Pol and lots of excitement. Sadly, something VOY never could do over an entire season.

[TheGodBen]

TedShatner10 wrote:

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Then why should your opinion and GodBen's matter?!

My and everyone else's opinions matters because a reasonable number of people view this thread and read what we have to say, if people stopped reading then it would just be an angry man muttering to himself.

"Drone" is an excellent episode and a clear, obvious (****). It earned universally high praise by the majority of critics and viewers through its compelling characterization, award winning acting, the right balance between plausibility and high concept with the psuedo science, and pretty effects that make sense. Two stars is a pathetic and ill founded score to give to "Drone".

I think that In the Pale Moonlight is the greatest Trek episode and one of the best episodes of television ever produced, but there are others who think it is terrible or supremely overrated. That's the way the world works.

I suggest you rewatch Drone if you love it so much because the message of that episode is that everyone is an individual and capable of making their own decisions and coming to their own conclusions, if everybody agreed on everything then we'd be Borg. Frankly, I'm happy living in a world of such diversity where people of all opinions can come together and discuss these things in a civilized manner, I wouldn't want things any other way. IDIC and all that. You disagree with me? Good, now tell me why you have your opinion and don't judge me just because you disagree with me.

Season Three was fun but not Earth shattering...

Poor choice of words, there's video evidence to the contrary.

And "In the Flesh" ruined complete fuck all, since you've got the gist of the episode right by comparing the Starfleet mockup by Species 8472 as a Soviet-style spy town run by a small (ISOLATED!!!) cell of infiltrators that have so effectively posed as humanoids, they're no longer true members of their original species. Species 8472 to this day have remained an undefeated force that has suffered none of the set backs suffered by the Borg and Dominion, the crew merely dealt with some of its agents on speaking terms, not fighting terms. And Star Trek is about finding peaceful resolutions first, before fighting, especially against a race who were bitchslapping the Borg Collective don't you think?

I give "In the Flesh" a reasonable 3/5 or 7/10.

As far as I'm concerned In the Flesh was a mess of an episode on a similar level with Coda, I don't think that a single thing worked. I'm not down with making 8472 into Voyager's BFF, but if they do it in a good way (such as Janeway helping the stranded 8472 in Prey) then I'll have no problem going along with it. But Voyager just happens to find 8472 in a simulated version of SF HQ, Chakotay goes on a date with one of them and Boothby ends up being their leader? And the episode ends with 8472 Boothby giving Janeway a flower and 8472 Ellen Tigh kissing Chakotay? The words "complete inanity" come to mind.

[Tomalak]

Surely it deserves half a point for reviving the type 1 phaser?

But yes, it's a complete and utter shambles.

[Praetor]

GodBen wrote:

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In the Flesh (0)
Don't watch it. Don't ever watch it.

But... but it has Ray Walston...

GodBen wrote:

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As far as I'm concerned In the Flesh was a mess of an episode on a similar level with Coda, I don't think that a single thing worked. I'm not down with making 8472 into Voyager's BFF, but if they do it in a good way (such as Janeway helping the stranded 8472 in Prey) then I'll have no problem going along with it. But Voyager just happens to find 8472 in a simulated version of SF HQ, Chakotay goes on a date with one of them and Boothby ends up being their leader? And the episode ends with 8472 Boothby giving Janeway a flower and 8472 Ellen Tigh kissing Chakotay? The words "complete inanity" come to mind.

The chick that played Valerie Archer plays Ellen Tigh? Eek. Now I know why everyone seems to dislike her...

I do appreciate the idea of "appearances being deceiving" and the apparent enemy not really being the enemy, but it's been done before on Trek, heck on VGR ("Nemesis") ...and seeing a fake Earth was interesting and all, but no, not really. "In the Flesh" was better left unmade.

[Tachyon]

I didn't like In The Flesh either, but the episode had somewhat promising start. Therefore, I would give it * or perhaps even *½.

[NumberSix]

GodBen wrote:

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In the Flesh (0)

You have to wonder sometimes if the Voyager writers set out to ruin their enemies. I imagine the break meeting for this episode went like this:

Braga: Now that I'm in charge I plan to ruin the Borg, but I think we should do another test-run by ruining 8472 because our previous attempt to ruin the Hirogen with that nazi episode didn't work, too many people enjoyed it.
Menosky: You're so wise, Brannon. I wish we could take a bath together.
Braga: Maybe later. Ken, do you have any ideas?
Biller: Um... we could send Chakotay on a date with a sexy 8472.
Braga (drinking Guinness): Brilliant!
Fuller: Guys, I think this is a really bad idea.
Menosky: How dare you question the magnificent Braga!!
Fuller: But...
Menoksy: Quiet, you! *slaps Fuller*
Braga: Thanks Joe, you're my BFF.
Menosky: He likes me!
Braga: Mike, do you have any ideas?
M Taylor: Well, if you insist upon using 8472 maybe we could have them preparing to invade the Federation?
Braga: Interesting, but can you make it more stupid?
M Taylor: Why?
Braga: Don't question me!
Biller: Here's an idea; how about we have 8472 replicate Starfleet Command in the middle of the Delta Quadrant for no reason?
Braga (drinking Guinness): Brilliant!
M Taylor: That's retarded! You might as well make Boothby their leader.
Braga (drinking Guinness): Brilliant!
M Taylor: I wasn't being serious.
Braga: Too late, we're using it.
Menosky: This is why Rick made you the head of the writing staff Brannon, you're so clever. Can I braid your hair?
Braga: Hang on Joe, we have to choose who will write this episode first. How about... Nick, I'll get you to write it because you haven't said anything yet.
Sagan: Aww shit.
Braga: It had better be. I want all you guys writing complete crap so that I look better in comparison, and one day all the Trek fans shall adore me and make me into their new king! It should be sweet.
Fuller (mumbling): Asshole.
Braga: Now if you gentlemen will please excuse me, I'm off to screw Jeri Ryan for a bit. Come along Joe, you can watch.
Menosky: Yay!!


And that's my review for In the Flesh. Don't watch it. Don't ever watch it.

Fabulous.

[TedShatner10]

"Drone" is a much better episode than "Night" and most other Voyager episodes, it is a miscarrage of review GodBen!!! You have nulled and voided this thread, nulled and voided it!!!

And Season Five of TNG is good, but overrated. Here is how the two S5 of VOY & DS9 stack up:

Excellent

TNG - "The Inner Light", "Unification Pt. 1", "Cause and Effect", "The Perfect Mate", "Darmok", "Disaster", "Power Play", "The First Duty", "Ensign Ro"

VOY - "Timeless", "Drone", "Counterpoint", "Latent Image", "Equinox Pt. 1", "Someone to Watch Over Me", "Dark Frontier Pt. 1 & 2", "Relativity"

Good

TNG - "I Borg", "Unification Pt. 2", "The Game", "A Matter of Time", "The Masterpiece Society", "Violations", "Conundrum", "Redemption", "Silicon Avatar", "Ethics", "The Next Phase", "Time's Arrow Pt. 1"

VOY - "Infinite Regress", "Bride of Chaotica!", "Bliss", "In the Flesh", "Thirty Days", "11:59", "Night", "Gravity", "Juggernaught", "Nothing Human", "Think Tank"


Mediocre

TNG - "Imaginary Friend", "Hero Worship", "New Ground", "Cost of Living"

VOY - "The Disease", "Extreme Risk", "Course: Oblivion", "Once Upon a Time", "Warhead"

Poor

TNG - "The Outcast"

VOY - "The Fight"

And of course you lot are completely off in regards to the pretty good (though not great) "In the Flesh", with favourable reviews from Sonneberg and Jammer, although less well received by Sluss. On the other hand Sluss did not mind "Once Upon a Time", but as this thread has clearly demonstrated 'different strokes for different folks', so I can't take people's opinions far too seriously.