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Old June 11 2009, 04:27 PM   #1681
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

DGCatAniSiri wrote: View Post
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Did anyone notice, coincidentally, that Jonathan Del Arco who played Hugh, was the main Night alien guy in "Night"?
Actually, he was the character dubbed Fantome in 'The Void,' which was a sixth or seventh season episode.
Damn my memory, you're right.
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Old June 11 2009, 05:17 PM   #1682
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Tomalak wrote: View Post
Perhaps it hasn't aged well?
It has aged pretty well in terms of special effects and production values a decade later, more so than much of TNG, the acting is up to scratch (though mainly from Jeri Ryan), and the storyline is compelling even though it is a loose retread of "I Borg". It was the strongest Borg episode on Voyager and better than "The Descent" from TNG (which was more of a Lore Vs. Data story). I simply disagree with all of you, also Sonnenberg's review was comparatively recent and as of today "Drone" has a rating of 4.6/5 on Star Trek.com.

I don't think Brannon Braga had a big crash in S5 either, since he was an uneven writer to begin with since TNG and he had already hit rock bottom with the atrocity that was "Threshold" in S2, although ironically it was the same season where he wrote the solid and entertaining "Projections". Braga was OK with Moore, Cotto, Menosky, and Fuller, but much more uneven with Taylor, Berman, Biller, and Pillar. Season Five was from my perspective the most even in quality VOY season and perhaps comparable to Season Three of Enterprise.
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Old June 11 2009, 05:51 PM   #1683
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

TedShatner10 wrote: View Post
"Drone" is a great episode, I'm puzzled if I was watching the same episode as you lot if it received generally favourable reviews from Trek critics such as Jammer, Sluss, and Sonneberg.
I've skimmed those reviews and one thing I've noticed is that they liked the character of One and how he was played. The reason why the episode didn't work for me is because I didn't like One or how he was played so that's how my conclusion differs so much from theirs.

And everyone else in this thread just agrees with everything I say because I'm so amazingly cool.


And I forget, a shuttle was destroyed in Drone so...

Shuttles Lost: 9

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Old June 11 2009, 06:40 PM   #1684
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

TedShatner10 wrote: View Post
I'm puzzled if I was watching the same episode as you lot if it received generally favourable reviews from Trek critics such as Jammer, Sluss, and Sonneberg.
These reviewers' opinions carry no more or less weight than the rest of us. You seem to think just because they loved it that makes it so. This isn't the first time I've disagreed with them especially the Cynic who tended to get sidetracked with a lot of silly stuff and most of which was explained in the episode.
This is one of Bryan Fuller's better scripts and his work on Heroes S1 did impress me
He was credited with two episodes--"Collisions" a decent set-up episode and "Company Man".
I doubt he is fully responsible for the clusterfuck of Heroes' grotesque S3.
No but he was suppose to come in and get the show back on track with his input. Those last 7 episodes did very little for me.
TedShatner10 wrote: View Post
as of today "Drone" has a rating of 4.6/5 on Star Trek.com.
Have you read those fora on startrek.com? I wouldn't give much weight to that score.
I don't think Brannon Braga had a big crash in S5 either
I was actually excited about Brannon taking over season five since I'd always been a big fan of his however I wasn't all that impressed with the season as a whole. Now individual episodes he wrote that year were the better ones but season five was a stepdown from season four but better than season three. It is also my least favorite of the three modern Trek series' fifth seasons.

It had a lot of mediocre uninteresting episodes--Extreme Risk, Nothing Human, Once Upon a Time, Gravity, Juggernaut, Warhead and another trilogy of weak episodes with The Fight, The Disease, Course Oblivion.
since he was an uneven writer to begin with since TNG
Not really on TNG. I thought most f his episodes were solidly entertaining--Identity Crisis, The Game, Cause and Effect, Timescape, Parallels, All Good Things. Then on VOY he wrote Scorpion, Flashback, Future's End, Deadlock etc
Season Five was from my perspective the most even in quality VOY season and perhaps comparable to Season Three of Enterprise.
No season of VOY was all that consistent--that was one of my criticisms of the show but I would say either season 4 or 1 were as consistent as the series ever was. And while ENT-3 was uneven it had a ton more 3.5 or 4 star episodes such as Azati Prime, The Council, The Forgotten, Countdown, Twilight whereas there wasn't one single episode in season five I'd give higher than 3 stars out of 4. And even with a lot of filler episodes, ENT-3 managed to be compelling and interesting in a way that VOY never was in any season.

EDIT: I just read what can only be described as a mini mini-review from Sonneberg. All I have to say is that was a rather anemic critique of the episode. His synopsis was longer than his review. It certainly didn't sway me. If I love an episode I can go on about every little thing I liked about it and there would be absolutely no doubt why someone should like it as much as I do.

Last edited by startrekwatcher; June 11 2009 at 07:11 PM.
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Old June 11 2009, 10:25 PM   #1685
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Extreme Risk (**)

We all know the problem with this episode, it doesn't fit with the events of the last 8 months in the show. B'Elanna has not been depressed and trying to hurt herself in all that time, it is a major character retcon and it just doesn't work. If this episode had aired only a few episodes after Hunters I would look upon it far more favourably, but it was too late to do this episodes now, the idea should have been abandoned.

And to make things worse the whole thing is brushed aside at the end of the episode because Chakotay gives a speech and makes B'Elanna feel better. Depression is a serious problem, it doesn't go away just because a tree tells you that it cares about you.

Then we have this week's sci-fi plot which makes no sense. They go to extreme measures to save a probe from a gas giant, they even put several of the senior staff into a potentially deadly situation. Why? Clearly Voyager doesn't have any trouble building new probes if they can put together a new super-shuttle in a week, and if they needed to stop the Malon from getting their hands on it then all they need to do is guide it further into the gas giant until it is crushed.

I'm going to be generous with the score because I didn't find the episode to be boring, but it has too many problems that stop it from being enjoyable.
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Old June 11 2009, 10:58 PM   #1686
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I give Extreme Risk 2 stars out of 4.

I didn't have an issue with this depression cropping up like it did. Afterall, between Hunters and this episode we didn't see a lot of B'elanna and when we did she was as an engineer. So who is to say she wasn't depressed. I know that when I've been depressed I can put on one face at work and another one when I'm by myself.

No, the biggest problem was the material just wasn't compelling. I simply couldn't care. It was probably the combination of the writing as well as the fact that when it comes to VOY characters there are those I don't mind seeing like Seven and then those that are dull as dirt like Chaktay, Paris, Kim, Neelix and Tuvok--B'elanna is more of a hit-or-miss character. Here she was the latter.

And for those complaining about wanting to see shuttles being built well here you go. I can't say it did all that much for me. The same goes for the Malon and the jeopardy plot. It failed to generate suspense or do anything particularly novel.

I think I've only watched this one twice and have no real interest in revisiting it.
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Old June 11 2009, 11:04 PM   #1687
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

"Extreme Risk" is okay, but a little heavy handed and clumsy.

I don't mind B'Elanna's apparently sudden depression as much as I mind how it seems to suddenly go away, and like GodBen said the concoction for having to build the DF to go rescue the probe was a little silly. Still, it's not boring, at least, and I appreciate what they were trying to do.
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Old June 12 2009, 12:28 AM   #1688
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I can ALMOST see B'Elanna getting angry enough to be physically restrained from the Malon commander in 'Night' as a bit of foreshadowing, but the problem is that the writing for every character has always been dependant on the writer, and it may just be that the writer had 'Klingon = ALWAYS VIOLENT RR' in mind while writing for her.

*sigh* But this... This is my big example for the problems of Voyager - no build up, no later usage. Clinical and sucidal depression cannot be cured through a pithy speech and a plate of pancakes, but that's the message we're being given here.

As for the plot... Really, I have more trouble accepting the idea that the MALON of all species are being made into recurring antagonists. There are dozens of more interesting species we could have as repeating adversaries instead of the junk haulers.
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Old June 12 2009, 01:52 AM   #1689
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

GodBen wrote: View Post
Extreme Risk (**)

Depression is a serious problem, it doesn't go away just because a tree tells you that it cares about you.

.
Just to be fair, remember that Trek has always been horrible about solving severe mental disturbances or horrific traumas over the course of one episode. Other than Nog losing his leg, and the TNG ep. where Picard recovers after his Borgification we almost never see any follow up to the soul searing Hells that many of the characters are put through. Like after Picard's horrible "five lights" torture session that almost completely breaks him...completely fine the next episode! Just wanted to note that Voyager is hardly the only offender with this issue.
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Old June 12 2009, 02:25 AM   #1690
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

The best thing about it is the way they cut up Shatner's spacediving suit from Generations and made it fit Roxanne Dawson. There must have been a lot of excess rubber lying around the costume department that week.

In itself, it's quite a good character piece for B'Elanna, but as everyone else has said, there's no hint of her depression before or after. It's not unlike Barge of the Dead in that sense, or Lineage, in which it's revealed she basically hates being half Klingon. She was probably my favourite character in the series, and had some good episodes along the way, but they weren't often connected up into a cohesive whole.
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Old June 12 2009, 02:28 AM   #1691
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

destro wrote: View Post
Like after Picard's horrible "five lights" torture session that almost completely breaks him...completely fine the next episode! Just wanted to note that Voyager is hardly the only offender with this issue.
But Picard had Troi to help him...
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Old June 12 2009, 03:36 AM   #1692
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

^ Well I suppose... "I sense you're in pain Captain..."

But I still maintain Trek almost never leads up to or gives any real repurcussions to issues like this.
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Old June 12 2009, 03:46 AM   #1693
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

No, I do agree. I was just having a foolie.

I think TPTB often haven't known the best way to handle psychological issue, or have felt like they might come off insensitive if they tried to, so they just shied away from it rather than risk alienating viewers.
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Old June 12 2009, 04:35 AM   #1694
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

destro wrote: View Post
^ Well I suppose... "I sense you're in pain Captain..."

But I still maintain Trek almost never leads up to or gives any real repurcussions to issues like this.
And I'm fine with that. I don't really need, like with damage to the ship, damage physically or psychologically done to the crew to be an ongoing thread the series must showcase.

I wasn't bothered that we didn't hear anymore about Geordi's reprogramming trauma from TNG's "The Mind's Eye". I was content with what with got from Picard's assimilation. Same for Picard's torture. If the writers want to expound upon it and can make it an interesting arc that's fine with me. But I'm just as content if the writers choose to let it take place offscreen in between episodes and let us fill in the blanks. I don't need to see their counseling sessions. More often than not, the time between episodes is nebulous enough.
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Old June 12 2009, 05:10 AM   #1695
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Extreme Risk: ****
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