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Old June 8 2009, 01:52 PM   #1636
NumberSix
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

^ Haha, probably. Maybe the writers didn't think we got that Seven's greatest fear was being all alone and dying alone?
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Old June 8 2009, 01:55 PM   #1637
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Can't have that now can we
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Old June 8 2009, 04:17 PM   #1638
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

GodBen wrote: View Post
It would have been more subtle if they repeatedly hit me on the head with a hammer and shouted the message in my ear.


*bonk*

"SEVEN HATES BEING ALONE!!!"

*bonk*

"SEVEN HATES BEING ALONE!!!"

*bonk*
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Old June 8 2009, 04:45 PM   #1639
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

^ So do you guys think Seven hates being alone?

Seriously, this one isn't one of my faves either.
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Old June 8 2009, 04:48 PM   #1640
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Praetor wrote: View Post
*bonk*

"SEVEN HATES BEING ALONE!!!"

*bonk*

"SEVEN HATES BEING ALONE!!!"

*bonk*
There's something about Seven hating being alone mixed in with the work "bonk" that... actually forget it, I'll keep those thoughts private for the good of the community.
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Old June 8 2009, 05:17 PM   #1641
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

GodBen wrote: View Post
Praetor wrote: View Post
*bonk*

"SEVEN HATES BEING ALONE!!!"

*bonk*

"SEVEN HATES BEING ALONE!!!"

*bonk*
There's something about Seven hating being alone mixed in with the work "bonk" that... actually forget it, I'll keep those thoughts private for the good of the community.


I thought you said the ice maiden thing did nothing for you?
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Old June 8 2009, 05:27 PM   #1642
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

If it's on offer then I'd be mad not to take advantage of it.
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Old June 8 2009, 05:33 PM   #1643
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Fair is fair, then.
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Old June 8 2009, 10:19 PM   #1644
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

How did Tom Paris get out of his coffin if he was in stasis? Or was that an hallucination too?
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Old June 8 2009, 10:24 PM   #1645
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

^ That was real, apparently it happened several times. It annoyed me too, the writers seemed to think that being in stasis is like being asleep.


Hope and Fear (***½)

One bad side effect of BOBW was that Trek nearly always went the cliffhanger route at the end of each season, except DS9 which went for shocking plot twists. What I've always liked about this episode is that it did not go down the cliffhanger route, instead it acts as a bookend for season four, that was a good idea considering the changes made this year.

Seven's character arc this season is fairly well rounded off in this episode as she finally decides she does not wish to be Borg and stops resisting being human (at least for now, the continuity of this show has never been brilliant). The story itself also acts as an interesting bookend for the decision Janeway made in Scorpion to side with the Borg, something which was not really followed up on this season. The idea that there are aliens near Borg space who resent Janeway for making that decision is believable and overdue.

The problem is that Arturis's plan is a little far-fetched, he has everything set up in advance even though he didn't even know about the message from Starfleet until he boards Voyager. Then there is the problem with the quantum slipstream drive which can only work on Voyager for an hour for some reason. Why can't they use it for an hour, then stop for a day and then use it for another hour until they finally reach home? This has bugged me for years. Finally there is the huge anti-climax of the real message from Starfleet, the highly secretive encoded message which says "Sorry, we've got nothing". That sure was worth encoding.

Does anyone else notice a timeline aberration with this season? Hope and Fear takes place nine months after Scorpion, but the second half of this season has had huge jumps in the amount of time which passed between episodes. The Killing Game stated that the Hirogen had control of Voyager for 2-3 weeks, and there was several days of fighting after that. Vis a Vis stated that Tom has spent weeks building his car in the holodeck. Unforgettable said that the female alien had been on board a month before. Demon suggested that Voyager had been running out of power for quite some time so there must have been large enough gap between this and the previous episode. One had Voyager going through a nebula for a whole month. I guess with Year of Hell taking up only five minutes this is doable, but the early episodes must have been fairly close together.

Who cares, eh?

Season review coming soon and then we'll jump right back into things.

Edit: I forgot about the torpedo counter, four torpedoes were fired in the slipstream tunnel (and only one hit).

Torpedoes: 25/38
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Last edited by TheGodBen; June 9 2009 at 12:06 AM.
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Old June 8 2009, 10:48 PM   #1646
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

GodBen wrote: View Post
Hope and Fear (***½)

One bad side effect of BOBW was that Trek nearly always went the cliffhanger route at the end of each season, except DS9 which went for shocking plot twists. What I've always liked about this episode is that it did not go down the cliffhanger route, instead it acts as a bookend for season four, that was a good idea considering the changes made this year.
I agree, as well with most of your other comments regarding the finale, in particular Seven's acceptance of what she is, and the consequences of Janeway's alliance with the Borg.

However:
GodBen wrote: View Post
The problem is that Arturis's plan is a little far-fetched, he has everything set up in advance even though he didn't even know about the message from Starfleet until he boards Voyager. Then there is the problem with the quantum slipstream drive which can only work on Voyager for an hour for some reason. Why can't they use it for an hour, then stop for a day and then use it for another hour until they finally reach home? This has bugged me for years. Finally there is the huge anti-climax of the real message from Starfleet, the highly secretive encoded message which says "Sorry, we've got nothing". That sure was worth encoding.
Yeah, Arturis was a bit of an over-confident supervillain in disguise, apparently. If he had just faked the communication from Starfleet from the start and it had taken him this long to catch up with Voyager, then it might have been more plausible. And, frankly, I think hearing nothing from Starfleet might have been better than "We got nothing." The crew would have to assume they were working on something after the Doc made contact, and wondering might have been more hopeful than concretely knowing that nothing could be done at the time.

I can't help but think the writers had no idea what they were going to do with the transmission when they had it happen, and only decided in this episode what it was going to be. It would be consistent.

How about the Dauntless? Pretty little ship.

I must admit, when I first saw this episode I thought she might be legit and the crew might actually manage to get home (yeah, I know, I'm a sucker ) and was very sad and indeed angry at the prospect that the Voyager might be left behind to get the crew home after she had shepherded and protected them for all these years. (I think I was still reeling from the destruction of the Defiant weeks earlier, if memory serves. ) I had envisioned some scenario where all of the crew except the senior staff manage to get home on the Dauntless but couldn't go back, and the senior staff has to continue to limp home on Voyager as karmic punishment for wanting to abandon the ship.

Granted, I am one who tends to get attached to "stuff." But at least the episode had some extra emotional resonance there with this audience member, right?

I also took note of the timeline contradictions:

GodBen wrote: View Post
Who cares, eh?
Who was their script supervisor, again? Did they even have a consulting firm at this point? TOS had one (Kellam De Forrest Research) that would read every script and shoot up a red flag at ANYTHING that seemed self-contradictory. Whether it was ignored, however...
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Old June 8 2009, 10:53 PM   #1647
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

I liked "One". Not a flashy episode, but it had that bald guy from Prison Break.
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Old June 9 2009, 12:02 AM   #1648
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

"Hope and Fear" gets a meager two stars out of four from me. This has to be one of the weakest Trek season finales. It felt just like any other middling episode you might encounter in season four.

I anxiously awaited to learn the mystery of the coded message and it initially started off well--like so many of Voyager's episodes--but fell apart when it came for some payoff. I thought for sure they were setting up something really interesting that would shake up the status quo and pave the way for something different in season five. Would they get home? Would they abandon VOY and we'd get a new starship?

No. And the writers had me up until the moment that Arturis' deception was revealed. It just took all the wind out of the episode for me. It became so pedestrian that any interest I had dried up. From there on out it was just formulaic VOY. The jeopardy of whether Janeway and Seven would be assimilated was non-existent because I knew they wouldn't be. Even the chase between VOY and the Dauntless was dull and felt like just another standard action sequence that the writers had supplied. I didn't like how the Borg were treated as a plot device although the final shot of Arturis landing in the middle of a trio of them was chilling.

I guess I was just spoiled with other television programs being creative at misdirection. So even if it wasn't in the cards for the writers to bring VOY home they could have at least supplied an interesting intriguing plot development. We didn't even get a cliffhanger. Very disappointing episode. The only thing I consider that came out of this episode that contributed to a larger purpose beyond Seven's character development was the fact that I always considered that Arturis probably weighed heavily in her mind when she decided to help the rebel drones in Unimatrix Zero and why she would be willing to be voluntarily assimilated.

GodBen wrote: View Post
The problem is that Arturis's plan is a little far-fetched, he has everything set up in advance even though he didn't even know about the message from Starfleet until he boards Voyager.
I'm pretty sure the implication from the episode as I had detailed in an earlier post in this thread was that Arturis somehow intercepted the message in "Hunters"

The way that I understood how everything unfolded was that Arturis intercepted the original message back in "Hunters" or sometime before then at some point along the alien relay Voyager was using to communicate with Starfleet(This of course requires some suspension of disbelief that Arturis would know any of this but yet he also was aware of Janeway's deal with the Borg which eludes me how he would be aware of that given there was no one else around at the time--maybe in "Concerning Flight" one of the items stolen contained the information). It was then that he created the false message about the Dauntless. I don't think he would have had the time in "Hope and Fear" in those few seconds to create the false message with Admiral Windbag.

He then encoded it with one of his species' complex encryptions and placed it back in the relay to where Torres grabbed it. That would be the only way that Arturis could have controlled when the message was opened in order to guarantee he would be the one on hand when it was and that the "Dauntless" was in place.

The reason Seven had such a hard time decoding it and the reason none of her codes mentioned in "Retrospect" and "Hope and Fear" failed to yield results in hindsight was because in her time as part of the Collective the Borg never assimilated Arturis' race as we learn in "Hope and Fear" and therefore hadn't asimilated their linguistic/coding skills and therefore wouldn't be able to developed a decryption algorithm to counter it:

"Have you encountered his people before?" Janeway asks Seven. "Species 1-1-6," Seven replies.

"Is that what you call us?" Arturis says "Yes," Seven says. "The Borg has never been able to assimilate them. Not yet."

At least that is what makes the most sense to me. If Arturis just sent his message and didn't take into account the damage from the data stream then he'd be thinking that the crew would get the message right away so why would the Dauntless not be nearby instead of in a system five months from where the crew was in "Hunters".

Last edited by startrekwatcher; June 9 2009 at 12:14 AM.
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Old June 9 2009, 12:11 AM   #1649
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Praetor wrote: View Post
I can't help but think the writers had no idea what they were going to do with the transmission when they had it happen, and only decided in this episode what it was going to be. It would be consistent.
I know a lot more about this episode than most because I was given the book Star Trek: Action! as a birthday present many years ago and it detailed how they broke the story for this episode. I can confirm that the transmission was something they pulled out of their ass for this episode. Surprised?
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Old June 9 2009, 12:20 AM   #1650
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Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

Not at all surprised, good sir. A little reassured, in fact.

I think startrekwatcher's assessment of how Arturis's plan worked is probably pretty spot on. He intercepted the transmission somehow, put in the fake, encrypted it with one of his own algorithms so he would have to be the one to decode it, and then retransmitted. A little ludicrous? Hells yeah.

But hey, if the Ferengi can do it... oh, sorry. Not there yet.
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